My idea on the Grey Knights

[Midgard]

I am pretty certain that the Grey Knights will be covered at some point or the other in the Horus Heresy books, and we might have at least a strong indication of their origins - it only makes sense for GW to rekindle interest in a specific model range through BL's already popular book series. That said, while I think that some loyalists from the traitor Legions were likely to have been used in the formation and training of the Grey Knights, I don't think their use was correlated with psychic ability - only proven loyalty, incorruptibility, and ability to fight off the daemonic influences. I do hope that GW/BL shed some light on it at some point, but that might be a little ways off due to some other storylines that are more likely to be covered before then (at least in my estimate - and as I am not in any way affiliated with either BL, GW, or any of the authors, and I do not possess any inside information, it's as good as the next guy's guess).

 

On the subject of psykers and Thousand Sons: I choose to think in terms of the assignment scale (see Lexicanum for reference), which classifies psychic affinity from Alpha-plus level psykers to Omega-plus level blanks/pariahs, with the regular humans somewhere in the middle. I would assume that Magnus' gene-seed might have the ability to move an individual's psychic sensitivity a little on the scale - while it would not turn average human into a notable psyker, it may make him slightly more psychically active.

 

This means that someone who is just on a threshold of being a psyker and who would have remained a non-psyker in any other legion would be "pushed" above the threshold. Someone who was a weak psyker naturally would be a stronger psyker. And someone who was at the normal level in the assignment scale would perhaps have some more psychic affinity, but not enough to be considered a "true" psyker.

 

With regards to Prospero as the recruiting grounds: since psychic talent is a mutation, it may or may not be entirely passed on, and may not always be inheritable. Therefore, while it is quite likely that a large proportion of Prospero's population was either psychic or descended from psykers, it does not mean that everyone was a psyker. All it means is that in Prospero's society, psykers occupied the positions of influence and power, and were the ones setting the defining cultural mores. Therefore, it is entirely possible that while Prospero's population might have been more psychically sensitive and would have resulted in more potential psyker candidates, not all of them would have been on the level that would truly qualify them as true psykers.

 

And who is to say that the Legion recruited solely or even mainly from psykers? Keep in mind that the Astartes are expected to be elite soldiers, and therefore when the candidates are selected, they are selected first and foremost for their ability to be such soldiers - their toughness, their resourcefulness, their strength, their killer instinct. Those things may or may not have been present with many of Prospero's psykers, and as such, Magnus might have still turned to the non-psychic population to fill the ranks of the Legion, for the same reason why most Legions and Chapters recruited from the more destitute and often more powerless populations (since those tend to produce tougher people, as per 40K lore).

 

On the "sons" of Horus: there is another possibility that was not truly discussed. We don't know very much about the society on Chthonia rather than a few rather small things in the HH novels, but what if the "sons" came about via, ahem, the natural way? If I recall correctly, at least one of the older Codices references the Ultramarines giving their Astartes concubines in the belief that any children produced from such dalliances are going to produce superior quality recruits for the Chapter. Granted, that statement might have been omitted in the later Codices, but unless it was directly retconned somewhere else (which I am not aware of), it opens this line of thinking. If Horus was indeed raised on Chthonia, and spent at least some time there prior to being discovered, several things can be surmised.

 

Prior to me getting into an explanation, I would like to say that I am not going for anything salacious here, and if the moderators feel that the below is inappropriate for the B&C forum, feel free to remove it by all means.

 

First, if all Primarchs rose to positions of power and influence in the societies in which they were found, it only stands to reason that Horus did the same. While we do not know very much about the Primarchs' relations with the opposite gender, we could presume that they did not stay abstinent, at the very least not before they were found. They would have no reason to lead celibate lifestyles if they are ruling over their worlds, and some of the Primarchs spent quite a bit of time between they were lost and found by the Emperor.

 

If Horus managed to rise to the top of Chthonian society, there is every possibility that he had plentiful opportunities to get closely acquainted with women, and, depending on Chthonian society's parameters, he might have had a harem or ten. In fact, in some societies it is crucial for the ruler's prestige to showcase his own virility, and to demonstrate that he is the "alpha male" - in those situations, the size of the ruler's harem directly correlates with his prestige amidst his own nobles, and the people he rules over. We do not know for sure if the Primarchs were capable of fathering offspring, but if they were, and if Horus spent enough time on Chthonia to produce at least one generation of offspring, and for them to produce offspring of their own... it more or less releases a lot of Horus' own genes into the general population of the planet, without the need for any experimentation. And if these offspring of Horus and their children inherited even a portion of their progenitor's abilities, they would have made for perfect Astartes candidate material.

 

Now, one argument against this is that if Horus was really the biological father or grandfather of some of his Marines, why was it not mentioned in the books. But then, we can look at the societies in our own real world where the ruler would keep a very large harem, and would routinely produce hundreds of offspring. I somehow doubt that this ruler would be likely to keep track of how many children he has, or even know all their names except for the select few that are hand-picked as potential successors or as potential political tools (i.e. princesses to be married off to important nobles or foreign rulers). Therefore, Horus would not know many of his biological children and grandchildren from total strangers.

 

As a result, even if Horus spent only a few decades in power on Chthonia, he could have easily produced thousands of offspring. Let's be conservative and do some math. Let's presume Horus is in charge of Chthonian society for 20 years. Historically, the Ottoman Sultans had harems of up to and sometimes in excess of a thousand concubines, and some of the Chinese Emperors were not far behind. So let's give Horus 1,000 concubines.

 

Now, if the Chthonian society placed high emphasis on overt masculinity and virility as being the defining characteristics of a ruler, Horus would have social pressure to produce some proof of such - which means there certainly would not have been any lack of trying on his part. While procreation can be an unpredictable process, and I do feel rather strange putting the numbers on humans (even hypothetical humans - makes me feel like I'm writing about breeding cattle, which just feels wrong), let's presume that one half of Horus' concubines produce a child every year on the average. So, 500 children per year for 20 years = 10,000 children.

 

Presuming 50% gender distribution, this results in 5,000 male children, which by itself is a rather sizeable number - all with much higher likelihood of being indicted into the XVI Legion as they grow and mature. But things get even more interesting once we factor in the next generation. All 10,000 children (male and female) carry Horus' genes, and if we presume that the Emperor discovers Horus at the end of Year 20 of Horus' rule, the oldest of Horus' children would be old enough to have children of their own. While Horus' grandchildren may not necessarily be as likely to look like their grandfather, I would presume they would still have a good chance of being stronger/smarter/tougher than average, with quite a few of them looking at least somewhat like Horus himself, and would make good potential Luna Wolves recruits. When we consider the time of the Great Crusade (i.e. circa 200 years, give or take a few), and presume that Horus released enough of these descendants into the general population, we could, technically, have a sizeable force of potential "sons" of Horus that Horus himself could recruit from.

 

For all intents and purposes, it is possible that Horus knew what he was doing, and kept on doing this even after his discovery by the Emperor. As one of the most powerful beings in the Imperium, I would presume that such proclivities would have not been looked at as strange; the Emperor himself could have thought of it as "the boy having his fun" - and might have even sanctioned it! After all, if something is proven to have a chance to create superior potential Astartes recruits, is cheap, and is very low-tech - not to mention quite possibly very enjoyable for Horus himself - why not do it?

 

Which also brings up a question about Abaddon and how he came about, and if any of the other Primarchs might have had the same idea at some point, but that's a discussion for another time.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On the subject of psykers and Thousand Sons: I choose to think in terms of the assignment scale (see Lexicanum for reference), which classifies psychic affinity from Alpha-plus level psykers to Omega-plus level blanks/pariahs, with the regular humans somewhere in the middle. I would assume that Magnus' gene-seed might have the ability to move an individual's psychic sensitivity a little on the scale - while it would not turn average human into a notable psyker, it may make him slightly more psychically active.

 

 

This means that someone who is just on a threshold of being a psyker and who would have remained a non-psyker in any other legion would be "pushed" above the threshold. Someone who was a weak psyker naturally would be a stronger psyker. And someone who was at the normal level in the assignment scale would perhaps have some more psychic affinity, but not enough to be considered a "true" psyker.

 

I agree with your ides about Mangus's seed moving people up the scale but i disagree with the number of steps. I have no way of proving how many steps but it seems to me that you are underestimating the effect he had on the number of psykers in his legion. With the amount of psykers in the Thousand Sons being abnormally high and the trouble the Legion was in before Magnus was found it seems that their were more like 2-3 steps up the scale. It is also possible that his gene seed had a varying effect of different Astartes. Maybe some went down while others went Way up. All we know for sure though is that there were more psykers and that is all i really need to help prove that psykers can be "made". If some one was not meant to be a psyker and then you add a out side source and they gain psychic powers then you have made them a psyker. If it can be done in one way then there is a good chance it can be done in multiple ways.

 

With regards to Prospero as the recruiting grounds: since psychic talent is a mutation, it may or may not be entirely passed on, and may not always be inheritable. Therefore, while it is quite likely that a large proportion of Prospero's population was either psychic or descended from psykers, it does not mean that everyone was a psyker. All it means is that in Prospero's society, psykers occupied the positions of influence and power, and were the ones setting the defining cultural mores. Therefore, it is entirely possible that while Prospero's population might have been more psychically sensitive and would have resulted in more potential psyker candidates, not all of them would have been on the level that would truly qualify them as true psykers.

 

From what i have read Prospero was more then a colony of sensitives. The entire population were psykers. Now i understand that this might not have been 100% but it was not 20. I see the number closer to 90. What is the point in saying the entire population were psykers when it was closer to a Small minority? Psykers were not looked down on and not prosecuted on Prospero. all oh original settlers here pskers so the gene for it would have been in 100 % of the resulting population. Even if some were less powerful the number of strong pskers would have been off the chart. Again you seem to want to down play the numbers. You could be right, I think not.

 

And who is to say that the Legion recruited solely or even mainly from psykers? Keep in mind that the Astartes are expected to be elite soldiers, and therefore when the candidates are selected, they are selected first and foremost for their ability to be such soldiers - their toughness, their resourcefulness, their strength, their killer instinct. Those things may or may not have been present with many of Prospero's psykers, and as such, Magnus might have still turned to the non-psychic population to fill the ranks of the Legion, for the same reason why most Legions and Chapters recruited from the more destitute and often more powerless populations (since those tend to produce tougher people, as per 40K lore).

 

I think the higgh value Magnus plased on psykers is clear. From the begining of his life he made great efforts to understand and help others to controll their powers. Advancement in his legion was directly tied to their psyick power level, Unlike most other Legions who valued killers or psyical prowess. Ideas like this would effect all aspect of a legion espesaly including recruitment.

 

On the "

sons" of Horus: there is another possibility that was not truly discussed. ..........

 

Well i do love far out ideas i have to say this is to far for me. If the primarchs were able to sire children then your numbers might be right but it would imply much more. The Emperor would have to know this could happen and would have to been part of his plan. If Horus could do this them he would not have been alone. Even if he was able to keep a lid on all of this there is noway it would not have got on out on some other world. If he was doing he nasty with thousands of women over many decades i find it hard to believe he would be able to stop once the crusade started. He would have fallen to slanesh long ago. The rumors of Abaddon being a "clone" son would be a "biological". The "sons" would look like Horus in more then just their eyes. They would be much bigger and stronger. There is no evidence that they had any such advantage. Cthonia was also very close to Terra so keeping a culture of this size with all the children and mothers would have been much to hard IMO. I do think your ideas are in the same rem of possibilities as my clone theory but just a bit too.......... I mean how much time in the day would he have to be.... naked.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

some how it posted 5 times...feel free toremove any of the 4 reposts plz mods

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

[#2]

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

[3]

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

...... meh

[Lord_Caerolion]

Remember though that some levels of psyker ability are so low it more means you have a slightly better than normal ability to "feel" the Warp. Magnus' geneseed could have acted as a psychic stimulant, boosting the existing abilities of the implantee, but not being able to cause psychic power in someone who has none.

[Frijj]

But the Grey Knights have an innate psychic ability dont they? Something not displayed by Garro or his confederates.

 

Grey Knights are psykers, but only beause they where psykers before they became grey knights!

[Midgard]

On the subject of psykers and Thousand Sons: I choose to think in terms of the assignment scale (see Lexicanum for reference), which classifies psychic affinity from Alpha-plus level psykers to Omega-plus level blanks/pariahs, with the regular humans somewhere in the middle. I would assume that Magnus' gene-seed might have the ability to move an individual's psychic sensitivity a little on the scale - while it would not turn average human into a notable psyker, it may make him slightly more psychically active.

 

 

This means that someone who is just on a threshold of being a psyker and who would have remained a non-psyker in any other legion would be "pushed" above the threshold. Someone who was a weak psyker naturally would be a stronger psyker. And someone who was at the normal level in the assignment scale would perhaps have some more psychic affinity, but not enough to be considered a "true" psyker.

 

I agree with your ides about Mangus's seed moving people up the scale but i disagree with the number of steps. I have no way of proving how many steps but it seems to me that you are underestimating the effect he had on the number of psykers in his legion. With the amount of psykers in the Thousand Sons being abnormally high and the trouble the Legion was in before Magnus was found it seems that their were more like 2-3 steps up the scale. It is also possible that his gene seed had a varying effect of different Astartes. Maybe some went down while others went Way up. All we know for sure though is that there were more psykers and that is all i really need to help prove that psykers can be "made". If some one was not meant to be a psyker and then you add a out side source and they gain psychic powers then you have made them a psyker. If it can be done in one way then there is a good chance it can be done in multiple ways.

 

My idea was simply on the fact that Magnus' geneseed moves the recepient up on the Assignment Scale - not the exact amount by which it happens. The exact amount, and whether or not I am right, well, hopefully we get our answers in "A Thousand Sons".

 

 

With regards to Prospero as the recruiting grounds: since psychic talent is a mutation, it may or may not be entirely passed on, and may not always be inheritable. Therefore, while it is quite likely that a large proportion of Prospero's population was either psychic or descended from psykers, it does not mean that everyone was a psyker. All it means is that in Prospero's society, psykers occupied the positions of influence and power, and were the ones setting the defining cultural mores. Therefore, it is entirely possible that while Prospero's population might have been more psychically sensitive and would have resulted in more potential psyker candidates, not all of them would have been on the level that would truly qualify them as true psykers.

 

From what i have read Prospero was more then a colony of sensitives. The entire population were psykers. Now i understand that this might not have been 100% but it was not 20. I see the number closer to 90. What is the point in saying the entire population were psykers when it was closer to a Small minority? Psykers were not looked down on and not prosecuted on Prospero. all oh original settlers here pskers so the gene for it would have been in 100 % of the resulting population. Even if some were less powerful the number of strong pskers would have been off the chart. Again you seem to want to down play the numbers. You could be right, I think not.

 

It is more or less a question of genetics. Normally, I would presume the "psyker" gene is a recessive gene, and as such is not very common in general population. You can have a population of 100% with the recessive gene, however, this does not mean that 100% of their progeny would have that recessive gene prominent. For example, if blue eyes are a recessive gene, and brown eyes are a dominant gene, if you have a colony of 100% of people with blue eyes who are descended from people with brown eyes, not 100% of their children will have blue eyes - some will have brown eyes too.

 

Hence, quite a few of the people on Prospero will not be active psykers, if basic genetics are applied. Granted, there will be a lot more active psykers than anywhere else in the Galaxy of the time, but there will also be a lot of latent and weak psykers, who may not be seen as such because they do not display much in a way of abilities.

 

And who is to say that the Legion recruited solely or even mainly from psykers? Keep in mind that the Astartes are expected to be elite soldiers, and therefore when the candidates are selected, they are selected first and foremost for their ability to be such soldiers - their toughness, their resourcefulness, their strength, their killer instinct. Those things may or may not have been present with many of Prospero's psykers, and as such, Magnus might have still turned to the non-psychic population to fill the ranks of the Legion, for the same reason why most Legions and Chapters recruited from the more destitute and often more powerless populations (since those tend to produce tougher people, as per 40K lore).

 

I think the higgh value Magnus plased on psykers is clear. From the begining of his life he made great efforts to understand and help others to controll their powers. Advancement in his legion was directly tied to their psyick power level, Unlike most other Legions who valued killers or psyical prowess. Ideas like this would effect all aspect of a legion espesaly including recruitment.

 

The real question is, who would have been suitable for implantation in the first place. If strength of psyker ability was a way to advance in Prospero's society (not unlikely, since I presume this is where Magnus learned his organizational doctrines), it is not impossible that the planet's elites, who were clearly not warriors to begin with, simply did not have a large number of superior quality Astartes recruits who could survive the implantation and benefit from it. Ultimately, psychic ability alone does not make a suitable recruit - he would still have to survive implantation, and be at least somewhat physically capable of doing the job. Psychic talent would be a great bonus, but if the highly psychic upper classes of Prospero simply don't produce enough suitable recruits, Magnus would have to fill in the ranks somewhere.

 

On the "

sons" of Horus: there is another possibility that was not truly discussed. ..........

 

Well i do love far out ideas i have to say this is to far for me. If the primarchs were able to sire children then your numbers might be right but it would imply much more. The Emperor would have to know this could happen and would have to been part of his plan. If Horus could do this them he would not have been alone. Even if he was able to keep a lid on all of this there is noway it would not have got on out on some other world. If he was doing he nasty with thousands of women over many decades i find it hard to believe he would be able to stop once the crusade started. He would have fallen to slanesh long ago. The rumors of Abaddon being a "clone" son would be a "biological". The "sons" would look like Horus in more then just their eyes. They would be much bigger and stronger. There is no evidence that they had any such advantage. Cthonia was also very close to Terra so keeping a culture of this size with all the children and mothers would have been much to hard IMO. I do think your ideas are in the same rem of possibilities as my clone theory but just a bit too.......... I mean how much time in the day would he have to be.... naked.

 

I think you may be misunderstanding what Slaanesh is all about. Slaanesh is about everything taken in excess - not the actual act of taking pleasure in something. Besides, in this scenario Horus would not be any different from a number of kings and emperors in our own history, many of whom have definitely not been considered decadent and weak. As I have mentioned earlier, in many cultures, virility is an expected attribute of a ruler - just ask the Ottoman sultans, the Chinese Emperors, and numerous other cultures where polygamy was allowed or even accepted, especially for the rulers. So what if Chthonia was one of those cultures?

 

Naturally, the entire argument depends on whether or not the Primarchs were fertile. If they were, there is no reason for the Primarchs not to have fathered many offspring, who would in turn have had offspring of their own, and so on. Naturally, it could have major implications on the early Astartes recruitment programs.

 

Finally, not to get into the salacious territory, but the actual act of conception does not take very long. In order to father the numerous children, a Primarch like Horus would not have to basically turn himself into a breeding machine - if he were to take an hour out of a day to "do the deed", that would still be more than enough. Again, look at the historical precedent - having hundreds of concubines and fathering children with many of them certainly did not stop Suleyman the Magnificent, or Genghis Khan, or Saladin, from being regarded as excelling at ruling, conquering, or performing other duties of a ruler. I would presume that a typical Primarch would have an impact on his world similar to Genghis Khan's impact on our own world, and therefore use the Mongol conqueror as a "baseline" to evaluate the possible amount of progeny.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

On the "

sons" of Horus: there is another possibility that was not truly discussed. ..........

 

Well i do love far out ideas i have to say this is to far for me. If the primarchs were able to sire children then your numbers might be right but it would imply much more. The Emperor would have to know this could happen and would have to been part of his plan. If Horus could do this them he would not have been alone. Even if he was able to keep a lid on all of this there is noway it would not have got on out on some other world. If he was doing he nasty with thousands of women over many decades i find it hard to believe he would be able to stop once the crusade started. He would have fallen to slanesh long ago. The rumors of Abaddon being a "clone" son would be a "biological". The "sons" would look like Horus in more then just their eyes. They would be much bigger and stronger. There is no evidence that they had any such advantage. Cthonia was also very close to Terra so keeping a culture of this size with all the children and mothers would have been much to hard IMO. I do think your ideas are in the same rem of possibilities as my clone theory but just a bit too.......... I mean how much time in the day would he have to be.... naked.

 

I think you may be misunderstanding what Slaanesh is all about. Slaanesh is about everything taken in excess - not the actual act of taking pleasure in something. Besides, in this scenario Horus would not be any different from a number of kings and emperors in our own history, many of whom have definitely not been considered decadent and weak. As I have mentioned earlier, in many cultures, virility is an expected attribute of a ruler - just ask the Ottoman sultans, the Chinese Emperors, and numerous other cultures where polygamy was allowed or even accepted, especially for the rulers. So what if Chthonia was one of those cultures?

If Horus was acting as you have proposed, why would he stop? Would he have been able to stop? I would think that the word of this kind of behavior would have been impossible to keep secret.

Naturally, the entire argument depends on whether or not the Primarchs were fertile. If they were, there is no reason for the Primarchs not to have fathered many offspring, who would in turn have had offspring of their own, and so on. Naturally, it could have major implications on the early Astartes recruitment programs.

I agree and i feel that something as monumental as the effect Primarchs being fertile would not have been overlooked in all the known information about them. There would be those who felt it was a great thing and others an abomination. Wars would have been fought over this. Maybe Galaxy wide wars.

[DeSnifter]

Regarding the thousand sons, you are making some huge assumptions. One, that it was an entire planet full of psykers. Even if it was, I imagine a paradise world dedicated to the pursuit of arcane knowledge and riddled with mutants would make the sort of hardy specimen the astartes need to survive the implant process. Prosperous may have had a bunch of psykers, but it's absolutely foolish to assume that every single one was a super stud of physical perfection. Quite the opposite I would imagine. In most of te fluff psykers are burdened by their 'gifts'. And thinking loken is a psychic and a grey knight? That's just sad sad fan boy wishlishting. If garro had a hand in the grey knights it was most likely training them and instructing them with their beginning knowledge of daemonic foes. Also, just because he recieved a vision of keeler doesn't make him psychic. He could have just recieved a message she sent. You don't have to be psychic to be affected by one.

[BrianBlessed]

There are so many differing opinions on GK origins.

 

One thing I've always found cool about the GK is that they were created before guillimans second founding and are not a codex chapter. Someone mentioned the oldschool Codex Imperialis version of events where the grey knights were the sole second founding. This is still true really.

 

I like to think that the custodian guard played a part in their creation and their martial training. Being recruited from the Black ships also hints to the motives of legalising psykers, they needed psykers to power the golden throne and to battle chaos effectively, they also needed to police psykers. Psykers were probably included in the codex astartes as a safeguard against psykers getting out of control. In my view the GK developed over a period of time rather than being founded in the fashion of other space marine chapters.

 

As for the geneseed used they would have had the foresight to pick the purest geneseed, the inherent personalities and genetic mutations of the primarchs would not have been desirable, another indicator (IMO) as to the custodians contributing geneseed. The codex chapters would have been too proud to use anything other than their own primarchs geneseed. Whereas the creators of the GK may have been wary of these characteristics.

 

Thats what I think anyway.

[Tevelyn]

Absolutely facinating thread. I wanna drop a few bits into the conversation if you don't mind.

 

As much as I love the concept of a promiscuis primarch, I think someone earlier hit the nail on the head. Horus has his fathers ambition and this could potentially include his own "super soldier program", much akin to his fathers space marine armies. Horus is the biggest strongest guy on the planet, he wants an army, he has cloning technology, so he makes clones of himself to put out there and use as an army. This sounds exactly like what horus would do. The clones wouldn't be true clones because he would include variables to the process including probably nessecary segments of female dna.

 

And maybe everyone who went to prospero were psykers, but the psyker gene is almost certainly reccessive and thus you'd have a roughly 50% psyker rate on the planet as a whole as the absolute maximum.

 

Also, the council of nikea definitely just outlawed sorcery, not psykers at all. I think there may have been some authors toward the beginning of the HH series that didn't understand the distinction and has led to the confusion thats floating around about this.

 

thanks for the attention

 

Tev

[Tevelyn]

was just looking through the collected visions book and read the section on the council of nikea. in the collected visions books it says that the council of nikea ordered librarian legions disbanded and that marines shouldn't use psykers. However in the dark angels books published since then the emperor has delt directly with space marine librarians who are operating post nikea.

 

so there's a bit of a contradiction there.

 

Tev

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Absolutely facinating thread. I wanna drop a few bits into the conversation if you don't mind.

/"GASP!"/ Finaly some new blood.... PLEASE DO! Though don't be suprised if you are shot down.

As much as I love the concept of a promiscuis primarch, I think someone earlier hit the nail on the head. Horus has his fathers ambition and this could potentially include his own "super soldier program", much akin to his fathers space marine armies. Horus is the biggest strongest guy on the planet, he wants an army, he has cloning technology, so he makes clones of himself to put out there and use as an army. This sounds exactly like what horus would do. The clones wouldn't be true clones because he would include variables to the process including probably nessecary segments of female dna.

...... Man i have been trying to say what you seem to have a knack for. or.. Yeh , what you said. I think Horus just "artificially" inseminated thousands of women with gene engineered, Horus mixed, DNA. I think he did this all with out their full consent, and maybe with out their knowledge. AKA unconscious or maybe even, full time baby makers. Like the humans were in the Matrix. He at least had to keep it a secret. HE let theses "sons" loose on his home world to mix with the general pop of cythonia. Let nature take it course and then act all surprised-like, when thousands of them just happen to make it into his legions.

Maybe he did this after the Emp found him, and he went snooping through his secrete projects... Finds his cloning room and steals the information to bring back to Cthonia..... Or maybe Cthonia being a full blown Hive world and near neighbor of Terra, they had the clone tech already.

And maybe everyone who went to prospero were psykers, but the psyker gene is almost certainly reccessive and thus you'd have a roughly 50% psyker rate on the planet as a whole as the absolute maximum.

50% sounds about right to me. With that high % of psykers and knowing that they were thought of in a good light, it is safe to assume there were many millions of psykers around. We know the planet had city's and that could mean maybe billions. Plenty to fill a legion with right?

Also, the council of nikea definitely just outlawed sorcery, not psykers at all. I think there may have been some authors toward the beginning of the HH series that didn't understand the distinction and has led to the confusion that's floating around about this.

 

thanks for the attention

 

Tev

 

 

was just looking through the collected visions book and read the section on the council of nikea. in the collected visions books it says that the council of nikea ordered librarian legions disbanded and that marines shouldn't use psykers. However in the dark angels books published since then the emperor has delt directly with space marine librarians who are operating post nikea.

 

so there's a bit of a contradiction there.

 

Tev

Yeh, there are differing accounts of what went down at nikea. I think that BOTH the practice of sorcery and the use of psyick powers where restricted. The Primarchs them selves were told not to use their powers, how could those under them not also be held in check? And that is where we get Chaplains from.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeh, there are differing accounts of what went down at nikea. I think that BOTH the practice of sorcery and the use of psyick powers where restricted. The Primarchs them selves were told not to use their powers, how could those under them not also be held in check? And that is where we get Chaplains from.

 

Perhaps another way of interpreting the contradiction is that the various Primarchs interpreted the decision as they wanted to, with the actual decision being the banning of sorcery, and the more zealous Primarchs interpreting "sorcery" as "warp usage", and so counting Librarians as well, but others keeping the (allowed) Librarians.

 

I mean, an untrained psyker is immensely dangerous, only exceeded by the latent psyker. While an untrained psyker can be noticed, and brought into line, a latent psyker is a ticking bomb, waiting for that moment of stress until his mind detonates with power, at the very least causing a massive amount of collateral damage, at worst opening a warp portal. "Re-latent-ing" Librarians just makes no sense whatsoever in-universe. It's asking for those Librarians who don't recognise their power to mix into the general rank-and-file, come up against something which triggers their power, and then something generally involving a large explosion.

 

So yeah, blocking the powers of a Librarian and altering their memory could possibly be done, with the use of psy-dampeners, but the potential risk in such an action is absolutely immense, many times more dangerous than simply training them. Sure, a Librarian could turn rogue, but then you've got others to fight them, and knowledge of what the hell they are. If a latent psyker goes *boom*, then they'd have no Librarians to fight the daemons, no librarians to scan others for remaining taint, and all knowledge on what in the hell just happened suppressed.

In any possible outcome, training the Librarians works out best, rather than limiting them. Plus, I just refuse to add this possible stupidity to the already miles long list of the Emperors other mistakes.

[Tevelyn]

As for the idea of horus cloning himself, it's not like the emperor would remotely disapprove =P. If it's true and the emperor saw what he had done it would warrant a pat on the back for initiative. Horus could be running the program very openly without it being a big deal. Not to be political here, but how many crazies out there would want the presidents baby if they could birth and raise him?

 

And the librarian thing... I don't know it's insanely sloppy. We have Israfael and that dark angel librarian*can't find the book* and looking at the timeline the emperor met with them before the council of nikea but both were still active after. There is also a reference SOMEWHERE, don't ask where, about the world eaters killing their librarians as the first thing when they fell.

 

I'm just unhappy with the collected visions book overall. In part of the book it says that the emperor sent leman russ to take care of prospero and the thousand sons and to show no mercy, which more than slightly implies killing magnus, then in the second book in the series in the custodes part it says that the emperor just wanted magnus alive. So the book contradicts itself sometimes much less other lore.

 

thanks for the attention

 

Tev

[Tutteman]

I just think it's a rather large leap to assume Horus is cloning via some method and that this explains the facial similarities, when they're basically having a sample of his DNA stuck in them to begin with and part of what this gene seed does is alter bone structures...like the ones making the shape of your face...?

[Tevelyn]

Again sorry but i have to disagree. If Horus's Gene-seed was turning his Astartes some how to look like him, It would be a change seen across the board in some degree. Maybe some of his Legion would only look like him the slightly while others would look dead on. Only the "Sons" had any resemblance to Horus. The "Sons" as far as i can tell were not even the Majority of the Legion. My guess is only roughly 30%. Loken, The half heard and other "non Sons" did not in the slightest look like Horus. And there were no "Sons" in the marines that came before Horus was found. If it was an side effect of the Gene-seed it would have effected the ones that came BEFORE Horus was found, as well as all the ones who came after like Loken. But it dose not, why? That to me means that it had nothing to do with the Gene-seed at all. That is why talking about Mngus is so important. Mangus's Gene-seed caused ALL those to receive it to mutate to some degree. Some much more then others but mutation by definition is random. The Gene-seed of Russ makes ALL his sons to grow fangs. Corax....(bla bla bla this is the point i know people probably skip buy but what ever) If anyone could show me how my thinking is wrong on this bit it would go a long way to clearing up the whole matter. Simple... just find something written that says there where "Sons", before Horus was found. Or show that All the Astartes of the Luna Wolves looked like Horus at least a little bit. Some thing Legion wide as Gene-seed is the only thing they have in common other then being Human. Maybe even Show that some other Legion had a Gene-seed side effect that was not legion wide.

 

this argument convinced me actually. I thought the idea of abaddon as a clone was bs before I read it.

 

Tev

[Locmac]

There is also a reference SOMEWHERE, don't ask where, about the world eaters killing their librarians as the first thing when they fell.

Tev

 

See I don't think that had anything to do with the council but more with the fact that they started to worship khrone really soon after turning. Just my two cents.

[Lord_Caerolion]

If Horus's Gene-seed was turning his Astartes some how to look like him, It would be a change seen across the board in some degree. Maybe some of his Legion would only look like him the slightly while others would look dead on. Only the "Sons" had any resemblance to Horus. The "Sons" as far as i can tell were not even the Majority of the Legion. My guess is only roughly 30%. Loken, The half heard and other "non Sons" did not in the slightest look like Horus. And there were no "Sons" in the marines that came before Horus was found. If it was an side effect of the Gene-seed it would have effected the ones that came BEFORE Horus was found, as well as all the ones who came after like Loken. But it dose not, why?

 

Forgive me, but where does it state that the Sons only started appearing once Horus arrived?

 

Lastly, we have canon evidence of geneseed affecting the appearance of Marines in ways that have nothing to do with the organs, such as the black hair of the Raven Guard, so I find the simpler explanation to be that geneseed has an effect on the implantee, depending on their level of receptiveness. Perhaps it doesn't effect everyone who's implanted, in the case of Horus' geneseed?

[Tutteman]

In fact Torgaddon, Abaddon and "Little Horus" are all stated to have been members of the Mournival since it started. And even more importantly Torgaddon fought in the Luna Wolf ranks alongside the Emperor's Children. Does this not mean that Torgaddon was in the ranks before Horus even took command, let alone start cloning people?

 

EDIT: And yes I'm aware Horus was first...not sure if he was there in time though.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

There is also a reference SOMEWHERE, don't ask where, about the world eaters killing their librarians as the first thing when they fell.

 

IIRC, that was the Chaplains of all the Traitor Legions, minus the Word Bearers. Something similar may have happened with Librarians, I don't know. But to my mind they don't seem as important as the Chaplains would have been.

 

/"GASP!"/ Finaly some new blood.... PLEASE DO! Though don't be suprised if you are shot down.

 

I seem to have picked a bad time to reappear from the Warp then. :D

 

Lastly, we have canon evidence of geneseed affecting the appearance of Marines in ways that have nothing to do with the organs,

 

Source (if only for reference's sake)?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

As for the idea of horus cloning himself, it's not like the emperor would remotely disapprove =P. If it's true and the emperor saw what he had done it would warrant a pat on the back for initiative. Horus could be running the program very openly without it being a big deal. Not to be political here, but how many crazies out there would want the presidents baby if they could birth and raise him?

 

And the librarian thing... I don't know it's insanely sloppy. We have Israfael and that dark angel librarian*can't find the book* and looking at the timeline the emperor met with them before the council of nikea but both were still active after. There is also a reference SOMEWHERE, don't ask where, about the world eaters killing their librarians as the first thing when they fell.

 

I'm just unhappy with the collected visions book overall. In part of the book it says that the emperor sent leman russ to take care of prospero and the thousand sons and to show no mercy, which more than slightly implies killing magnus, then in the second book in the series in the custodes part it says that the emperor just wanted magnus alive. So the book contradicts itself sometimes much less other lore.

 

thanks for the attention

 

Tev

Cloning was a BIG NO NO. It is clear that to a limited degree it still went on but from every thing i have read it was outlawed. Why and when i do not know but i think it might be a left over from mans first laws, AKA the 20th century. The WE killed their Librarians because Khorne told them to do so, if they had any at the time. Also i think people are not taking the word Collected strongly enough when they talk about the CV book. If all the views came from only one person then there would not be any/ much contradiction but since we have to rely on many sources we will have contradictory accounts by definition. Just like any investigation you have to weigh the accuracy of each account on its own and use a preponderance of the facts. That is what most 40k fluff is in my mind. A report by some scribe in the adeptus Terra some where. He has gathered all the information he had clearance to look at and presents it to us in a report form. It is left to us the reader..... some =][=, to make of it as we will.

 

Forgive me, but where does it state that the Sons only started appearing once Horus arrived?

All the "sons" came from Ctonina. Maybe they were there before Horus but as far as i know none were members of the legion before Horus was found.

 

Lastly, we have canon evidence of geneseed affecting the appearance of Marines in ways that have nothing to do with the organs, such as the black hair of the Raven Guard, so I find the simpler explanation to be that geneseed has an effect on the implantee, depending on their level of receptiveness. Perhaps it doesn't effect everyone who's implanted, in the case of Horus' geneseed?

I will agree that some geneseed affected skin color and teeth length but theses changes effected the entire legion. 100%. The sons were a minority. If you can find a mutation caused by the geneseed that effected change in only a small portion of a legion then you will have found a important fact. You cant use the Sons condition as this is what the argument is all about.

 

In fact Torgaddon, Abaddon and "Little Horus" are all stated to have been members of the Mournival since it started. And even more importantly Torgaddon fought in the Luna Wolf ranks alongside the Emperor's Children. Does this not mean that Torgaddon was in the ranks before Horus even took command, let alone start cloning people?

 

EDIT: And yes I'm aware Horus was first...not sure if he was there in time though.

 

Abaddon, Torgaddon and lil Horus were members of the Mournival from the start.... but that dose not say that the Mornival was in the Legion from the start. It says that the Mornival is a relatively new part of the Luna Wolves. One that draws on traditions that date back to the earliest days of the Legion. I think these traditions are the Libraium.

 

/"GASP!"/ Finaly some new blood.... PLEASE DO! Though don't be suprised if you are shot down.

 

I seem to have picked a bad time to reappear from the Warp then. :P

 

Woot! WB. I was starting to feel like I was talking to my self. :P

[Tevelyn]

I actually want a reference on where genetic engineering is illegeal... The emperor genetically engineered things, horus was surely the equivilant on cthonia before the emperor showed up and again, the emperor isn't the kind of guy to punish horus for that, I really think he'd just give him a pat on the back and tell him "good thinking".

 

The reference to world eaters killing librarians was to say that the world eaters HAD librarians when the chapter turned, nothing more.

 

And again, that argument is pretty damn convincing. Sons of horus start showing up from cthonia and there are no references to them being around before the luna wolves started coming from cthonia. The original mournval were all sons, which implies elite warriors who horus held in esteem before he was discovered which implies his elite troops which would have come from his genetics experiments, much in the way a certain golden armored guy genetically engineered beings off himself and then gave them armies. Think of it this way, horus was likely doing exactly the same thing that the emperor had done to create him.

 

Tev