Disembaking issues

[foster]

I'm having a few issues with my brother's interpretation on disembarking. He says that due to not being able to fire out of a vehicles fire point when moving at cruising speed (the rules section: vehicles pg.66), that it's common sense that when disembarking the troops they can't fire their weapons at cruising speed. He see's it like the troops inside are being jolted in the transport so much at high speed that when they disembark they're too disorientated to fire their weapons.

 

My view says different; the rules say that troops can shoot (not move) when ever they can disembark, (the rules section: vehicles pg.67). Essentially allowing passengers to disembark and shoot from a transport that’s moved at cruising speed.

 

Now from what he told me he has managed to convince mostly everyone at our local store that his interpretation is right, and has told me I should leave it at that or I will look like an ass (which I admit happens most of the time since I like to nit pick the rules and take my time to do so).

 

All I can say is no matter what I tell him, even going as far as the Rhino rush tactic mostly everyone here loves to use, he's not leaving any wriggle room for me. I reckon I have one of two choices;

 

1. Leave it alone and just go with the flow making everyone happy.

2. Try to convince everyone else at the store differently, knowing full well I'll look like an absolute dick doing so.

 

Considering my past view points I expressed before at the store I'm willing to just let the issue drop. I know I can be very argumentative so I want to avoid issues like these as much as possible.

 

What would be the best approach?

[Isiah]

I'm having a few issues with my brother's interpretation on disembarking. He says that due to not being able to fire out of a vehicles fire point when moving at cruising speed (the rules section: vehicles pg.66), that it's common sense that when disembarking the troops they can't fire their weapons at cruising speed. He see's it like the troops inside are being jolted in the transport so much at high speed that when they disembark they're too disorientated to fire their weapons.

 

Rules don't often follow perceived 'logic' so it's a factor to ignore :(. As far as it goes the rule is pretty clear in the BRB so I see no reason why not to play as it should be played.

 

However, my 'logic' interpretation is that troops can't fire out of moving vehicles at cruising speed because they can't steady their weapons effectively within the bucking vehicle. However, once out, they can brace to fire – but counting as if they moved.

 

Cheers

I

[Mycroft Holmes]

When someone says they're using "Common sense" to apply a rule for one situation to another, get the shovel out cause the BS is going to get deep.

 

You are correct, disembarking allows the unit to shoot as if having moved. End of story, no modifiers.

 

Ask your brother to actually show you in the rules where it says that one over rides the other, not just applying rules from one situation(shooting from a moving vehicle) to another situation(shooting after disembarking) that already has a consistent set of rules.

 

Mycroft

[Cale]

As's been said, you're right, your brother's wrong. Whether or not you should argue the point is up to you, but I know I would. As for actually doing the arguing, point out the portion of the rule where it says that they can disembark after firing and then ask for a rule where it says they can't.

[DarkGuard]

Again your right. I would argue the point, but it's up to you if you want to or not.

 

Just to clarify though, when the models are in the vehicle, it is stated that they cannot fire out of an access point if it moves at cruising speed. Makes sense, as vehicles can't fire if they move at that speed (unless its a Land Raider but then you wouldn't have anyone trying to fire out of it).

 

When they have disembarked from the transport, they are no longer part of transport, and are therefore not held under those rules such as no firing at cruising speed. They are once again their own unit that will function as infantry. And one of the infantry rules is that they can always fire unless they run, are in combat or if they have heavy weapons (or out of range rapid fire weapons). The only thing that vehicles do to a disembarking unit is to make them count as moving when disembarking, and to prevent movement and assault if the vehicle moved.

 

The main thing to ask him is to point out where it says under disembarkment that the passengers cannot fire after getting out of a vehicle that has moved at cruising speed. When he doesn't find one, argue your point. Fire points and disembarkment are two completely different subjects on transport vehicles, and they shouldn't be applied to one another unless it says in the Rulebook that they should.

 

Good luck.

[foster]

Thank you guys for your advice, I'll try to explain your points to my brother. I just hope he'll take what I have to say seriously or we might have a shouting match. I'm not a player with much patience, but if it looks like he won’t go for it I’ll just let him have his way. I can’t stand the arguing anymore, because I'm always the one starting them :RTBBB: .

 

thanks again :(

[gil galed]

Actually it makes common sense to. Put it this way.

 

You're riding along in a jeep, you going at 70mph, well if you look out the sun roof you're not going to be able to hit stuff at that speed. If however you are moving at 70mph, then you hit the brakes and, once you've stopped, leap out then you'll be a good shot again (or atleast not as bad as at 70), The fact you 'were' travelling at 70mph has no relevance to your state once you are on solid ground again :(

[Seahawk]

Again, you are right and your brother is wrong. That first bullet point clearly states anything disembarking troops can or cannot do. That is it. This is something that can't be any more simple.

[foster]

I did mention this important bullet point in the rules to my brother before, but he just says I'm not considering the other rules, that the fire point rules should still apply to the unit that was in the transport when they disembark. Even though these are completely two different situations they should go hand in hand, for example, Rhino moves so that the passengers are affected by fire point rules, once they disembark the unit is technically still affected because that rule is applied to the passengers.

 

I don’t think just pointing at that paragraph in the rules section: vehicles pg 67 under my brother’s nose is going to convince him otherwise (I have already done that twice).

[Ktan]

I'd show him this thread. If he's still unconvinced after that, then I don't know what you can do.

 

Making an argument based purely on 'common sense' is flawed for two reasons: a) 'common' sense seems to be very objective and B) common sense rarely applies because the 40K system is so abstract anyway. For example, some people's 'common sense' would dictate that if most Bolts hit a target, they would utterly pulverise it, yet we still roll to wound.

 

Also, Fire Points and the rule pertaining to them are only valid when a unit is in the vehicle. There are no two ways about it. Fire Points are irrelevant for disembarking because fire points tell units where from inside the vehicle mounted units can fire. Disembarking units are not mounted in the vehicle; they are in the process of dismounting. Therefore, completely separate rules govern these events. The unit are outside the transport, and not governed by the limitations of fire points.

 

Fire points are a mechanism to demonstrate that units inside a transport can only fire from certain places. Obviously, once a unit is outside said transport, which a disembarked unit is, there is no way you can justify their continued use. Also, a counter to the argument they are passengers is simply that they are no longer passengers once disembarked, are they?

 

Other passenger rules have NO effect, as far as I know, on disembarking, because this is a self-contained section about one action.

 

He can argue as much as he wants that the situations are similar, but in the eyes of the rules, they are discrete. No amount of common sense or justification changes this, and essentially, he's bending/breaking the rules. I don't believe for nefarious reasons, but if he is telling you that you can not do something the rules explicitly allow you to do, then he is in error. I personally am surprised the rest of the store took his side too. The text is quite clear about this.

 

Stick to your guns on this. The current ruling is a house rule, and I don't think it's fair that you want to play by the written rules for this rather than a house rule that's been made up, essentially. If your argument is supported by the rules, you should not feel stupid for putting it forward. I don't know about others, but my opinion is that a house rule should be a mutual agreement between all players to skip out or modify the rules. If one person is not content with the house rule, then the standard rules are there for a reason xD

 

"Now from what he told me he has managed to convince mostly everyone at our local store that his interpretation is right, and has told me I should leave it at that or I will look like an ass (which I admit happens most of the time since I like to nit pick the rules and take my time to do so)."

 

I'm not going to lie, this sounds a little suspect and it sounds like he's trying to brow-beat you. If you are made to look like an ass for following the written rules, then I'm at a loss as to the attitude of that gaming group (no offence meant).

 

Ultimately, there are mis-interpreting (sometimes poorly written) rules, and then blatantly going against them. The former is entirely forgiveable, but the latter would tempt me (no matter how large or small the rule) to pick up my stuff and go, unless it was an agreed House Rule with a better reasoning than 'common sense' (ie, a rule for the sakes of sportsmanship) and that is mutually agreed amongst ALL players.

[Grey Mage]

The fire rules for being embarked dont count because the unit is no longer embarked.

 

Just like the firing rules for CC no longer apply to a unit thats not in assault- ie, just because you were in assault doesnt mean you cant shoot now.

 

We dont fight the game as it was five minutes ago, we fight it as of now.

[SeattleDV8]

Turn to pg 95 in the BRB (deep striking) "....may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle."

"Vehicles count as moving at cruising speed."

" In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal."

Show this to your brother, as it proves that a unit disembarking from a vehicle moving at cruising speed can fire as normal.

[Legatus]

This has been answered extensively already, but perhaps I can give another helptful analogy.

 

Vehicles cannot shoot when they have moved at cruising speed. Cruising speed is defined as anything between more than 6" and up to 12" movement distance.

 

However, There are severalunits that can move 6-12" and shoot just fine, like Jump Infantry and Bikes. It is not a general rule that anything that moved more than 6" cannot shoot anymore.

 

Generally, models can fire one weapon per turn. If they have moved, then they may be restricted depending on the weapon (rapid fire or heavy work differentliy under such circumstances), but they are still allowed to shoot, no matter how far they have moved. Usually models can only move 6" (Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, Monstrous Creatures, Walkers), but there are some models that can move more than that (Jump Infantry, Bikes). Regardless of the movement distance, they can fire one weapon.

 

Vehicles usually come with several weapons attached, not just one like the non-vehicle models (or sometimes one plus a backup pistol). So Vehicles have their own set of rules which describe which weapons they are allowed to fire under which circumstances.

 

Vehicels that moved at a certain speed are not allowed to fire any weapons. That restriction is extended to models that are currently embarked in that vehicle, as described by the 'Fire Points' rules on page 66.

 

Once the models leave the vehicle, they are treated as non-vehicle models again, and the restrictions for units that just disembarked a transport are described on page 67. Such units may shoot, and they count as having moved, which restricts the use of certain types of weapons (rapid fire, heavy).

 

The rules for disembarking a unit differentiate between the situation where the vehicle has not yet moved and where the vehicle already has moved, since the unit then has different restrictions. If the vehicle has not yet moved, the unit can still move, shoot (counting as moved even if they did not move any further other than to disembark), and then assault. If the vehicles already has moved, then the unit cannot itself move any further and cannot assault, but can still shoot (o:cussing as moved).

The rules give those two situations and explain what difference it makes for the disembarking unit. If it would also be different whether the vehicle has moved 1-6" or 6-12" then the rules on that page would differentiate between those three situations (not moved, moved up to 6", moved up to 12") instead of only listing two situations. But the rules do not differentiate between how far the vehicle has moved.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

You're right, your brother is wrong. Even though his argument does make sense. It doesn't add up that a vehicle can't fire if it moves really fast, and people can't fire from the vehicle if it moves really fast, but they have time to disembark and shoot AFTER having moved very fast. However if you want to make sense out of it, you could imagine that the dudes inside the vehicle are bracing themselves near the vehicle's exits, loading their weapons, and getting ready to jump out and spray the enemy with fire once the vehicle comes to a screeching halt.

 

Back a few editions, you would receive negative modifiers to your shooting roll depending on how far the vehicle had moved. They clipped this out and made it an all-or-nothing proposition in order to have one less table to find and make vehicles less complicated.

[Seahawk]

Rhino moves so that the passengers are affected by fire point rules, once they disembark the unit is technically still affected because that rule is applied to the passengers.

There you go right there. The unit is no longer inside the vehicle, hence they are no longer passengers. If they are not passengers, they are not affected by any vehicle rules.

[angry man]

ha, just thought: according to your brother's logic (not really logic, but hey ho), if a unit disembarks from a rhino then only 2 marines would be allowed to shoot (due to firepoint restrictions) - just thought i would point out another sizeable flaw in his thinking(?)

 

AM

[foster]

Thank you guys for helping me out again, you guys rock.