advanced Defiler tactics

[minigun762]

So one of the staple units (for good or bad) in all my Chaos armies is the Defiler.

Normally I've been running it with +2 DCCW and its use is fairly simple.

 

Walk towards the enemy on turns 1-3 (depending) and fire Battle Cannon

then either Fleet into combat with something juicy (and without a hidden Power Fist) or continue firing the Battle Cannon.

Simple, but I feel like there could be more to this unit.

 

Does anyone have any other tried and true ideas for how to play the Defiler?

 

On a related note, do people feel that you are better off using two dedicated units instead of the Defiler's hybrid nature,

say DCCW Dreadnought and Vindicator, to accomplish the same goal?

[Corpse.]

I can add a bit but its in a refined state where it makes and breaks itself depending on what you face. Its a basic battle cannon tactic for long table edges deployment/dawn of war.

 

If deploying long table edges, put one in the corner, then the next one in the same corner, then the last one in the opposite corner. Then proceed to shoot down anything that can hit the defiler that is in the lone corner so you have one firing the whole game unhindered if possible. Since its just 150 points, any larger unit normally worth more points is sent after it, you can ignore if you wish because its wasted points far from your main force. (If thats possible/they arent troops taking an objective) So its a bit hard to manage as a tactic and especially with the list you take.

 

Defiler standing behind a land raider and shoots over it, while taking obscurity in return with a 14/14/14 in front of it, and possibly a rhino in front of the raider giving the raider obscurity for armies like eldar.

 

Defiler standard use for sitting back with havocs/predators and the like to be the counter charge unit while being useful.

 

Lash tactics are widely spoken of already, but with the defiler you can lash the enemy closer and bunch them together at the same time, some people forget that.

 

 

The defiler works best in a multi-pronged army, as in the army can fulfill different styles where a defiler can help. Like having the land raider and some rhinos, use them to be a wall to protect your army, or charge headlong forward and smash the enemy to bits. Respectively, a mech tau list may be a bit hard to pin down but lack in overwhelming firepower especially when you cover your models with cheap tanks and hard as nail tanks with cover saves. While on the opposite end, charging straight for a imperial guard firing line can also be done.

 

Its a bit of an obliterator in nature but with a very different set of roles/abilities. I find it hard not to take oblits or a defiler, I much rather take those then a predator/raider these days. Though, certain lists require me to change things up, I would always take them if not for that.

 

Edit: Some typos.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think the hybrid nature of the defiler can make it very strong, and you get your points worth in wargear on them. Dreads have problems, and dread+vindicator is expensive. Defilers also get more attacks than dreads and fleet. I actually don't think defilers and vindicators are really comparable. One is anti meq and is too expensive to be used just for the cannon. The other is anti teq.

 

I run two in most of my lists, and my tactics mainly come down to using them in a completely suicidal manner. A defiler sitting back and firing its cannon is almost guarunteed to not make its cost back. In my mind, the cannon is there for shots of oppertunity. If there isn't a decent group to blast where i can take advantage either of the size of the template or of the ap3 i just fleet it. I use them for the threat, not the battlecannon. I want to make sure my opponents have to destroy both my defilers before they can concentrate on the real threats of my doom siren squads, oblits, and daemon prince.

 

My defilers almost never live past the third turn. But i usually win. Keeping them with (or infront) of my rhinos means the enemy can't properly set up a reception for the guys in the rhinos. It makes for a very messy situation for them tactically. If they don't have the raw strong to drop both defilers and both rhinos and the daemon prince within the first couple turns it just turns into a mess. In other words, unless they have assault terminators. Strength 10 power weapons also force them to move their tanks around to make them harder to hit or they get smashed.

[minigun762]

I think the hybrid nature of the defiler can make it very strong, and you get your points worth in wargear on them. Dreads have problems, and dread+vindicator is expensive. Defilers also get more attacks than dreads and fleet. I actually don't think defilers and vindicators are really comparable. One is anti meq and is too expensive to be used just for the cannon. The other is anti teq.

 

That might not have been the most accurate example on my part as you're quite right about the cost.

 

I will admit that the main reason I bring a Defiler onto the table is the Battle Cannon. I think of it first and foremost as a Leman Russ equivalent and then a close combat walker. Maybe that needs to change.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think the hybrid nature of the defiler can make it very strong, and you get your points worth in wargear on them. Dreads have problems, and dread+vindicator is expensive. Defilers also get more attacks than dreads and fleet. I actually don't think defilers and vindicators are really comparable. One is anti meq and is too expensive to be used just for the cannon. The other is anti teq.

 

That might not have been the most accurate example on my part as you're quite right about the cost.

 

I will admit that the main reason I bring a Defiler onto the table is the Battle Cannon. I think of it first and foremost as a Leman Russ equivalent and then a close combat walker. Maybe that needs to change.

 

Try it from the other perspective for awhile.

 

Posessed vindicators have less range and are about the same price, but they just pieplate better. Defilers only have str 8, which doesn't threaten armor even when its ordnance. Vindicators do, and can instant death stuff like nobs and deal with teqs. There are better ways to get ap3 than a defiler cannon, and the vindicator is better if you just want a pie plate.

[Teg]

A good use of CC Defilers I've found is with combat resolution: Because CCDs are so resilient in CC (as are all AV12+ walkers!), you can almost guarantee that you win the combat*. If your target is fearless, then winning combat means extra saves (read: more killiness). If not, you've got a chance to run wipe out the unit completely!

 

* Most units will have only one weapon that can really harm AV12 (eg. power fist on the sergeant)(remember krak grenades hit and glance on 6s, fat chance there!), so they'll probably only get one 'wound' on you, while you can average 2-3.

[minigun762]

Has anyone found some successful pairings with the Defiler?

I like to keep it close to a Rhino squad of CSMs, figure they add longevity where the Defiler adds raw killing power and try for a dual assault on unit(s).

[empchildrenbob]

oh yeah defilers are beautiful! mines wiped out 27 termintors with mark of tzeench in 3 turns

 

the defiler is great against anyhing pretty much (unless the unit has alot of power fist) but with armor 12 their hard to kill

 

in assult and you almost always win

[Drudge Dreadnought]

To give some mathammer here, a powerfist sergeant has a 15% chance to kill a defiler in CC. 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, .44 penenetrating hits, .148 wrecked/explode. Thats actually really low. On average a defiler will eat a 1 powerfist unit before it gets killed or loses all its weapons.

[Brother Nihm]

To give some mathammer here, a powerfist sergeant has a 15% chance to kill a defiler in CC. 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, .44 penenetrating hits, .148 wrecked/explode. Thats actually really low. On average a defiler will eat a 1 powerfist unit before it gets killed or loses all its weapons.

Quite DoW'ish actually. :)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

To give some mathammer here, a powerfist sergeant has a 15% chance to kill a defiler in CC. 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, .44 penenetrating hits, .148 wrecked/explode. Thats actually really low. On average a defiler will eat a 1 powerfist unit before it gets killed or loses all its weapons.

Quite DoW'ish actually. :P

 

Heheh. Not DoW2'ish though. Powerfists in that wreck tanks so fast 0_o

[Corpse.]

Tanks? Thats the same in 40k, str8 vs rear armor 10 with 3 attacks that auto-hit stationary vehicles....

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Tanks? Thats the same in 40k, str8 vs rear armor 10 with 3 attacks that auto-hit stationary vehicles....

 

I should have said armor, not tanks, as they also wreck walkers super fast in DoW2. In fact, all anti armor does. Even the weakest anti tank weapons (missile launchers for example) will wreck a dread or pred in 2-3 shots, which is very inaccurate to the tabletop. But this is way off topic!

[Vertebrae]

In 2K point games I always run 3x Defilers with TL Lascannon and extra CCW. They can take out anything, and the ability to move and shoot the battle cannon does help. My only observation is that AV 12 is kinda weak for such a huge target. I know that they ignore 1's and 2's on the chart, but even Soul Grinders have a front armor of 13.

 

I also find that keeping them together helps a lot, but you have to make sure that they aren't too close, since moving around them is a bit tricky. The Heavy Flamer, IMO, is a not as good since a lot of the template will be negated by the front claws of the Defiler. I haven't tried the Havoc Launcher since it doesn't look that appealing to me.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In 2K point games I always run 3x Defilers with TL Lascannon and extra CCW. They can take out anything, and the ability to move and shoot the battle cannon does help. My only observation is that AV 12 is kinda weak for such a huge target. I know that they ignore 1's and 2's on the chart, but even Soul Grinders have a front armor of 13.

 

I also find that keeping them together helps a lot, but you have to make sure that they aren't too close, since moving around them is a bit tricky. The Heavy Flamer, IMO, is a not as good since a lot of the template will be negated by the front claws of the Defiler. I haven't tried the Havoc Launcher since it doesn't look that appealing to me.

 

Yeah, part of the issue with them is that in the old codex they were about the same as they are now - but with a lot more choices in upgrades, including one to make them armor 13. They got rid of those upgrades and didn't compensate for it.

 

EDIT: I am incorrect, the defiler could not take the +1 armor upgrade. However it did have access to more/better upgrades than the current one does.

[Azulz]

I am a noob to using the defiler. The times that I have used it, it almost always gets blown up before I can get it in CC...In what ways do all of you ensure that your Defiler will end up in CC? Or what are my best chances besides deploying it properly?

[the jeske]

never use a single one. 2 or 3 is minimum . expect that one or two will get blown up , to help one survive maximise the number of units going close with the enemy . run 3/4 units of zerkers , 2DPs . this way its possible that some armies may not have enough counter units to blow up everything , while countering that what is left alive.

[minigun762]

never use a single one. 2 or 3 is minimum . expect that one or two will get blown up , to help one survive maximise the number of units going close with the enemy . run 3/4 units of zerkers , 2DPs . this way its possible that some armies may not have enough counter units to blow up everything , while countering that what is left alive.

 

Which is pretty much the theory behind Chaoszilla.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I have toyed with the idea of running two DP's, two dreads(bolters only) and two defilers with troops in rhinos. viable?

[Corpse.]

I've fiddled with chaoszilla a while back when the codex wasn't even out yet. (shhh!) And it does alright, 2 princes, greater daemon, fair number of marines with champs out of rhinos and 3 dreads+3 defilers. It works wonders but its a vehicle style melee-zilla force really.

 

Some may consider the 2 meltas on each troop a great addition, even go as far as not buying the champ's powerfists due to so many dreads/defilers/princes+greater D. Four powerfists buys the greater daemon, and you lose a 45 point model if you have him eat a fist champ.

[minigun762]

I have toyed with the idea of running two DP's, two dreads(bolters only) and two defilers with troops in rhinos. viable?

 

The current army I'm building is 1 DP/3 Dreads/3 Defilers/4 Rhinos

I know its more competitive to have 2 DPs but I have a hard time justifying a 2nd Daemon Prince on the battlefield fluff-wise.

[courage&honor]

In 2K point games I always run 3x Defilers with TL Lascannon and extra CCW. They can take out anything, and the ability to move and shoot the battle cannon does help.

 

I didn't think you could shoot the battle cannon while moving? While a walker can move and fire all weapons ordnance weapons require you to remain stationary to fire and I thought can't rules took priority over can rules

[Corpse.]

The current army I'm building is 1 DP/3 Dreads/3 Defilers/4 Rhinos

I know its more competitive to have 2 DPs but I have a hard time justifying a 2nd Daemon Prince on the battlefield fluff-wise.

 

Then you can always justify using toughness 6 bikes in fast attack // toughness 6 HQ on bike for being tossed at targets you know wont ruin him/them. To abuse toughness 6 that is. If you really want to be a jerk using the speed of the bikes and toughness 6 nurgle esque, being able to run up and tangle with things and tie down before the walkers get there is a nasty two prong attack.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The current army I'm building is 1 DP/3 Dreads/3 Defilers/4 Rhinos

I know its more competitive to have 2 DPs but I have a hard time justifying a 2nd Daemon Prince on the battlefield fluff-wise.

 

Then you can always justify using toughness 6 bikes in fast attack // toughness 6 HQ on bike for being tossed at targets you know wont ruin him/them. To abuse toughness 6 that is. If you really want to be a jerk using the speed of the bikes and toughness 6 nurgle esque, being able to run up and tangle with things and tie down before the walkers get there is a nasty two prong attack.

 

Except nurgle bikers are brutally inefficient pointswise.

 

In 2K point games I always run 3x Defilers with TL Lascannon and extra CCW. They can take out anything, and the ability to move and shoot the battle cannon does help.

 

I didn't think you could shoot the battle cannon while moving? While a walker can move and fire all weapons ordnance weapons require you to remain stationary to fire and I thought can't rules took priority over can rules

 

You are thinking of Ordnance Barrage weapons. Regular ordnance weapons you can move and fire on all vehicles, but you may not fire any other weapon if you do. Also its not can't rules > can rules, its specific rules > general rules.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I have toyed with the idea of running two DP's, two dreads(bolters only) and two defilers with troops in rhinos. viable?

 

The current army I'm building is 1 DP/3 Dreads/3 Defilers/4 Rhinos

I know its more competitive to have 2 DPs but I have a hard time justifying a 2nd Daemon Prince on the battlefield fluff-wise.

 

Fluff wise for me Lorek(From Claws of Lorek) is a power so to speak and has recruited an old Death Guard Daemon prince (Lord of Flies) into the power vase of the Red Corsairs along with a squad of his death guard.

 

I think it is easy with good fluff to get past the notion of two DP's or (2 any HQ things like in the Codex marine book).

 

I just worry about AT with the Deffies, and dreads taking up AT slots.