Corpse. Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Nurgle bikes are not up to par, but against the right targets and remaining in theme - it can be more viable in a list that compliments their use. Dont forget the classic daemonbombing tactics relied on these guys at one time, facing codexes that are still in use today. (SW, DH/WH, DE etc) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2092693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I've found out you can justify your own armies fluff to use someone elses fluff for whatever reasons. It's not always gonna sound great, and it'll piss someone off eventually, or a lot of people, or not get accepted because it's not first founding/legion, but in the end the one winning is better than the one with a spikey rhino hanging out of their eye socket. Also note, How would you run defilers running support on Plague Marines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2092739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 I was running the math and I'm starting to think that keeping the Reaper AutoCannon might be a good idea. Its a terrific weapon against transports and light armor which is something that the BattleCannon isn't that great at killing thanks to the scattering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I've found that what the battlecannon lacks in accuracy it makes up for by rolling 2d6 and picking the higher for armor pen due to being ordnance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If you want to use it for a shooty list, then have it come off reserves, though its unreliable as the first 2 turns of chaos are some of the most important turns with what you have left to ruin the enemy. A shooty list though can benefit from a defiler arriving late, and being anywhere along your table edge when it does arrive. To make use of either its cannon, or counter charge what ties you down in melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 What is the point of keeping it off the board? Doing so can keep it alive longer, sure, but it just means something else is getting killed instead. It compromises your armor saturation and adds an element of unreliability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 I would agree that the Defiler serves best as a bullet sponge. AV12 with the D. Possession does a fair job of absorbing long range firepower and the combination of Fleet and the Battle Cannon mean its a threat to almost anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atheist Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 My latest experience with the defilers , taught me that they could really shine if you play their strengths . Before going any further I will state that the new codices and their brand new toys can and will a mockery out of them . Sad but true . I am talking about three things in particular : the drop pods , the Valkyries ( Hellstrike missilies ) , and the hidden klawz in 30 boyz squads . We're talking about dirt cheap upgrades or units that can easily be a focus in their respective lists today . Now , I prefer the unmodified version , although in games over 1750 I wouldn't mind fielding three with lascannons as well . The main purpose of these "sidearms" in my opinion would be either to pop armor open if no infantry is visible/on the table ( with the reaper AC being a somewhat "meh"choice due to 36"range , which may ruin your strategy of cornering the defilers , if you choose to rely on it for rhino breaking etc ) or to attempt to (insta-)kill a tankhunting land speeder/ attack bike . This is where the lascannon will shine ( especially if you go for the "cornered" thing , which will probably mean that help won't be around ) . The are really poor in cc , as they have terrible cc stats . I remind all that recently I had a game where I didn't score ONE cc hit against the boyz ( bad luck ) , while the klawz partied all over the table hitting defilers at 3+ . Yes , my battlecannon scatter rolls were rather unfortunate too . Fired about 8 times a 30 boyz troop and didn't manage to kill it . Anyhoo , the other thing they absolutely shine against is tanks and non walker vehicles . If you could neutralize or otherwise occupy the melta guns of the opponent , a continuously advancing pair of defilers may rip apart any vehicle in it its way . Mine ripped apart a Monolith . GD's , DP's and thunderhammers will maim Defilers so beware . WS 3 hurts a lot against most infantry . I used to believe in them , until I realised that I cannot escape an I.G. gunline ( and I'm not talking about the lascannons of the heavy weapons teams ) . Fast skimmers that may fire 2 S8 Ordnance Weapons ( from a high enough angle to deny any obscured cover save that a Land Raider can provide and as if this is not enough ) that can ignore any cover ? Nope , Defilers , *edit* probably * /end edit * won't survive that even if it is at BS 3 . On the other hand you may tie up a unit for quite a long time . Remember , you have 5 weapons ( no matter what configuration you choose ) which means in general better survival potential . Free daemonic possession is a good thing too . I don't know if there is a way to include three defilers and enough Rhinos in a 1500 list so as to present your opponent with a tough-ish dilemma of target priority . This sounds as good scenario , but I think it will be tricky to include more than 2 defilers . Perhaps the best alternative is not the Dread-Vindi , but the Defiler-Dread . I would also suggest taking two defilers and 6 havocs with 3 reaper AC ( same points with a Defiler ) for the added synergy of the heavy support slots and 48"range of the AC's , this way you can remove the reaper AC's ( but keep the flamers ) have 5 attacks on the charge , " guaranteed to break the ice at naughty parties " <_< . It's just that I can't see many people use rhinos today , besides us that is . Chimeras are AV 12 . Off to think of a list then ... ( I like this forum :) ) *edit* Edited for some typos */end edit * *edit* Edited again for a correction , confused hellstrike with hellfury missiles */end edit* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Bullet sponge, yes agreed. But its battle cannon is a bane to any marine army. I wanted to keep that cannon alive until after I exposed the enemies marines from their rhinos, and catch them trying to outperform my marines with their numbers. In a game where lists are not shared, its a severe advantage if you catch him with his models too close together. Lash tactics aside of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Before going any further I will state that the new codices and their brand new toys can and will a mockery out of them . Sad but true . I am talking about three things in particular : the drop pods , the Valkyries ( Hellstrike missilies ) , and the hidden klawz in 30 boyz squads . I used to believe in them , until I realised that I cannot escape an I.G. gunline ( and I'm not talking about the lascannons of the heavy weapons teams ) . Fast skimmers that may fire 2 S8 Ordnance Weapons Yeah the Valkyrie is bad and the Vendetta is even worse with 3 TL'd LasCannons for less then a Defiler. Expect to see alot of them in IG lists and to be honest they seem tailor made to kill MEQ armor. Swoop in from the side and take shots at AV11 side armor means Predators and Vindicators are all going to be easy targets. Atleast with a Defiler, its AV12 and D. Possession give it some increased durability against it. I'm actually worried that they'll start to fry Obliterators too, 3 shots = 2.25hits = 1.87 wounds = 0.94 dead Obliterators a turn in cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2149925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Since it's more of an aircraft transport, it needs a rule that if it gets shot down all the passengers die, unless IG instantly die already when their ride dies >_> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2150103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 We've got marines that can mow through 100 guardsmen in one game, we can't have everything. Valks/Vends are not a fair comparison to the defiler. (We're lucky we get a battle cannon at all, much less a melee platform to mount it on) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2150577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSouls11 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I've got a question for the collective chaos conciousness here, what do you prefer vindicator/defiler combination or double vindicator? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2151343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Personally, you're better off running two of one thing, not a mix. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2151503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 I've got a question for the collective chaos conciousness here, what do you prefer vindicator/defiler combination or double vindicator? Most people prefer pairs but I actually have a topic over in the tactica section debating the usefulness of triples over doubles and the thoughts so far is that having a pair of something is much more important then having triples. So this means that 2 Vindicators/1 Defiler or 2 Defilers/1 Vindicator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2151598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSouls11 Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 After finding and reading the article on doubles vs triples i decided to run a second vindicator instead of a defiler, thankyou for the help all, this extends particularly to minigun Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2151627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 I'm still debating the best way to protect Defilers (and all Chaos vehicles) from the variety of Outflanking, side armor shooters of which the Vendetta is the biggest problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2151750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepstrike Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 oh yeah defilers are beautiful! mines wiped out 27 termintors with mark of tzeench in 3 turns the defiler is great against anyhing pretty much (unless the unit has alot of power fist) but with armor 12 their hard to kill in assult and you almost always win You are the real warmaster! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2152513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepstrike Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I'm still debating the best way to protect Defilers (and all Chaos vehicles) from the variety of Outflanking, side armor shooters of which the Vendetta is the biggest problem. no real way to protect yourself from those, beyond being in close combat. As far as how I run mine I like to keep the heavy flamer and reaper for up close and personal shooting as I dont like to kill my own berzerkers. reaper for those shots which absolutely need to not scatter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176645-advanced-defiler-tactics/page/2/#findComment-2152521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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