lucifer light bearer Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I was thinking about running a 4 flamer command squad in a vulkan list any thoughts on how best to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Yeah- out of a DP, with a PW or two and a stormshield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 The squad doesn't even need to be geared towards combat, just four flamers in a DP. One caveat, though - using a 4 flamer command squad in a Vulkan list requires both Vulkan and a Captain - quite hefty, pointswise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternguard sergeant McColl Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Much rather just take sternguard with HF's/C-F's, but if you have the captain for it in the list I say why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 One caveat, though - using a 4 flamer command squad in a Vulkan list requires both Vulkan and a Captain - quite hefty, pointswise. I'm pretty sure that Vulkan, like the other Special Character Captains, allows you to take a command squad on his own. Don't have my codex at hand to check right now though, so I might be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 ^^^ Wrong. Vulkan is not a captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 ^^^Wrong. Vulkan is not a captain. OK, I can see how you would think so conisdering his name is not specifically listed on page 132 with the others, but follow me here. Page 132, C:SM You may take one Command Guard squad for every Space Marine Captain in your army (including Captain Sicarius, Captain Lysander, Shadow Captain Shrike, Kor'sarro Kahn). Page 98, C:SM This is a quest handed down through the Forgefathers, the greatest heroes of the chapter, and, at the close of the 41st millenium, it is a burden borne by Captain He'Stan I'm thinking Vulkan not being listed is a probably a typo, like the reference to a Command Guard squad. (Which, since it is capitalised, could be construed to refer to a specific unit called a Command Guard squad, which would make Command Squads as listed in the codex a unit that cannot be taken and would also imply that C:SM players have a legal HQ choice called the Command Guard squad for which there are no rules.) Sometimes RAW fail. In this case, since every other character that is referred to in the in-Codex fluff as a Captain counts as a Captain for the purpose of being able to take a command squad, and since there are obvious typos undermining the trustworthiness of the sentence that appears to disallow He'stan from taking a command squad, I lean towards the argument that He'Stan should count as a Space Marine Captain same as the others. With all that said I must admit that, RAW, He'Stan cannot take a command squad, but then again neither can anybody else if we want to adhere to the letter of the rules regarding 'Command Guard' suqads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not a typo. The idea being Vulkan is leading his force on a quest for relics, and is not part of standard battle company organization, and as such does not have a Command Squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 ^^^Wrong. Vulkan is not a captain. Page 98, C:SM This is a quest handed down through the Forgefathers, the greatest heroes of the chapter, and, at the close of the 41st millenium, it is a burden borne by Captain He'Stan That's flavor text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Besides, Salamanders dont even have Companies- they have Great Companies. And all the captain positions are taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not a typo. The idea being Vulkan is leading his force on a quest for relics, and is not part of standard battle company organization, and as such does not have a Command Squad. OK, but to play devil's advocate, isn't Kahn also outside normal battle company organization, leading a force on a quest for relics heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thantoes Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not a typo. The idea being Vulkan is leading his force on a quest for relics, and is not part of standard battle company organization, and as such does not have a Command Squad. OK, but to play devil's advocate, isn't Kahn also outside normal battle company organization, leading a force on a quest for relics heads? Maybe he is but since it specifically states that he can take a command squad it doesn't matter what he is doing. Since all captains except Vulkan are mentioned I think we can confidently state that he is not meant to have a command squad. It sucks a little but thems the rules Im afraid. Back to the OP. It all depends what you want the command squad to do. I would never put 4 flamers down myself as my command squad is geared very much to CC but I can well imagine the devastation that squad would cause to an ork or tyranid horde coming down in a pod. Mmmmm toasty :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Besides, Salamanders dont even have Companies- they have Great Companies. And all the captain positions are taken. Space Wolves have great Companies, Salamanders have Companies. They are a bit bigger than standard (120 Marines), but they are still called Companies. Back on topic: No He'stan is not eligable for a Command Squad, so you must take a Captain to get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Page 98, C:SMThis is a quest handed down through the Forgefathers, the greatest heroes of the chapter, and, at the close of the 41st millenium, it is a burden borne by Captain He'Stan Please continue reading He'Stann had served for nearly a century when the chapter council demanded he set down his burdans as commander of the 4th company and don the mantal of Forgefather. As He'stan rellinquished his old titles and duties... He WAS a captain, he is not anymore. On a more practical note, 4 flamers are great and will do very mean things to orks and guard even without twinlinking. Especialy if you throw them on bikes, increased toughness, speed and abil to use the twin linked bolters at longer ranged targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Page 98, C:SMThis is a quest handed down through the Forgefathers, the greatest heroes of the chapter, and, at the close of the 41st millenium, it is a burden borne by Captain He'Stan Please continue reading He'Stann had served for nearly a century when the chapter council demanded he set down his burdans as commander of the 4th company and don the mantal of Forgefather. As He'stan rellinquished his old titles and duties... He WAS a captain, he is not anymore. On a more practical note, 4 flamers are great and will do very mean things to orks and guard even without twinlinking. Especialy if you throw them on bikes, increased toughness, speed and abil to use the twin linked bolters at longer ranged targets. Not to nitpick, but the first quote implies that he retains the rank of Captain despite his duties as Forgefather necessitating his no longer commanding the 4th. More or less semantics, I know, but all the cool kids were doing it! Back on subject, I have to agree that 4 flamers sounds like just the thing for dealing with those pesky orks, and feel no pain, 2 base attacks, and Marine toughness and armor means anything short of a burna squad or power klaw (or genestealers) will have a hard time killing them quickly without overwhelming numbers. (which the flamers ought to take care of nicely) Put them on bikes and they're even tougher and more mobile, but (theorycraft ahead, I haven't used bikes yet) I'm wary of paying points to give up a bonus attack in order to gain another ranged weapon when a bike command squad already has a great and versatile ranged weapon in the twin-linked bolters. As frosty said, having both grants versatility at range, but with such a small squad I feel like they need as many attacks as they can get in CC in order to help keep up, even with their durability. After all, its my understanding that any army you want to use 4 flamers against you'll end up in melee with either because it's to your advantage as an SM or because you had to get close enough to use 4 flamers on them. XD I would compromise and try 2 flamers, 2 CC, all on bikes, but that's probably my lack of experience talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yeah, and theres a story about a Caeser who was just a teacher and drafted into the army... as a supplymaster of a legion. Turns out the generals were jerks, didnt care to listen to him or take just their own share.... so he talked to the supreme commander and asked for the rank of general so he could tell them to go to hell in that kind of case. He then became a general... and eventually became THE general when all the commanders of his own rank or higher will killed in a particularly viscious fight. Didnt do bad either.... The point is that you can have rank without having an actual position. Hes a captain in power, and he can command forces... but he isnt actually the captain of a company. Not that it even matters for wether or not he can take a command squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Well the point of the flamer is that it is SIGNIFIGANTLY better than the bolter in the range where it works. The Tl bolter will get .88 hits at long range and 1.77 at rapid fire. If the flamer gets less than 4 hits you need to work on target priority. Those extra hits will result in extra kills, and will more often than not be worth more than a bonus atack in CC. Thats not the concern with puting them on bikes, 4 flamers on a bike comand squad is better than 4 CC bikes, no questions asked. The question is do you want to pay the points for the bikes or do you want the much cheaper option of footslog/transport. Bikes increase the cost of a flamer Comand Squad by 2/3, which is signifigant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer light bearer Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 I used the four flamer unit the other night and had a lot of luck. I used a drop pod and landed them right next to my target, they killed 18 guardsman in one turn. the guard player shot the :D out of my squad the next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 yeah thats the problem with drop pods, unless you go full drop pod assult they are esentialy suicide attacks. Against guard, I actualy think the bikes would have performed better (per point) as t5 vs s3 means wounding on 6's. Now of course this is theory craft for me too, as I tend to run mine as plasma or melta based, hunting either MC/TEQ or vehicles as is apropriate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 yeah thats the problem with drop pods, unless you go full drop pod assult they are esentialy suicide attacks. Against guard, I actualy think the bikes would have performed better (per point) as t5 vs s3 means wounding on 6's. Now of course this is theory craft for me too, as I tend to run mine as plasma or melta based, hunting either MC/TEQ or vehicles as is apropriate The only time I've seen SM bikes in play, a lone attack bike took a charge from a full kroot unit, (it outflanked or infiltrated or something, I had just started watching at this point) won combat by 1, and then tarpitted the unit for a turn and a half. I did the math (in my head, so take with a grain of salt) on the charge and, with the WS4, T5, and the marine armor save, it was actually not a freak accident. The bike should have taken one wound and tied combat, but the marine player rolled hot on his armor saves. So based on that incident, I would say that T5 on bike marines can certainly help, at least in melee. I know that tarpitting probably isn't what you built your command squad for, but against hordes of S3 or S4 shooting I would imagine t5 and FNP to be just as effective as in melee. Edit: quick mathhammer for example: 50 guardsmen with FRF,SRF in rapid fire range: ~150 shots, hitting on a 3+ 75 hits, wounding on a 6 12.5 wounds, armor save on a 3+ 4.16 unsaved wounds, Feel No Pain on a 4+ 2.08 average wounds final. For comparison 75 hits wounding on a 5+ (normal T4 marines) 25 wounds, armor save on a 3+ 8.333 unsaved wounds, FNP on a 4+ 4.16 average wounds final. (command squad rendered useless) So against S3 attacks, T5 should reduce wounds taken by half, which in a small unit like a command squad is golden, as the example shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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