minigun762 Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Note: This isn't a knock against any of these Legions/Chapters, so don't take anything personal. Am I the only one who feels like there is too much overlap of backstory between these three Legions? Don't get me wrong, I love all their back stories for the most part, but then again it makes sense that they all appeal to me because I feel they are all very similar. IF and IW are both described as masters of siege warfare, both offensively and defensively. IW and IH are both described as extremely intelligent and savvy when it comes to machines/bionics. IH and IF are both described as stubborn, practical Legions who hate weakness and seek to overcome it. All three Legions seem to have a thing for massed firepower, as opposed to lightning raids or HtH combat. I'm sure there is more but I think my point is clear. I can understand two of them, one Loyalist and one Traitor to be a reflection of each other, but 3 seems a bit much. Whats your thoughts on this? Am I oversimplying everything? Was GW being lazy? Should I just shut my face and enjoy the fact that all 3 Legions share cool background? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 With regard to the IF and IW, I really felt it was a case of trying to have a 'good' and 'evil' version of the same army. The sort of thing where you have an inevitable clash once one side turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
#13 Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Whats your thoughts on this? Am I oversimplying everything? Was GW being lazy? Should I just shut my face and enjoy the fact that all 3 Legions share cool background? :blush: Personaly I think you're oversimplyfing things or blurring the lines a bit. To me these three legions each have there own background and character. Sure there are similarities, but they are all space marine legions set in the same SciFi universe, so there are bound to be similarities if you have as many different chapters and legions as in the 40kverse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Agreed IH are not actuall like the other 2 when you get down to brass tacks. The Fists seem to excel at the deffensive side of seiges and the IW the offensive side. As for overlap well they all come frome the same basic sorce of genes, the Emperor. It should be no surprise that several sons would share common traits of their shared father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Yeah, be fair, you could argue that all Space Marines are similar because of their Implants. Or the fact they were Power Armour. It's not their fault the Emperor Chose them. Leave the Marines alone! Besides I don't remember Perturabo or Rogal Dorn having Living Metal Anything Else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 As an aside to my previous comment... Things also changed after the Iron Cage, as I recall, Dorn spending many years retraining what became the Imperial Fist Chapter according to the COdex Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Yeah, be fair, you could argue that all Space Marines are similar because of their Implants. Or the fact they were Power Armour. It's not their fault the Emperor Chose them. Leave the Marines alone! Well I hope I wasn't coming across as that simple. ;) While every Legion is going to share a great deal of similarities (they are afterall bred for the same purpose, war), each Legion does have defining aspects that sets them apart from the rest. For me, those aspects seem awful similar for the Iron Hands, Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasleybob Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 They are similar. I think though that the Iron Hands are present to further plotline and character. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus are worlds apart, but apparently the closest of battle brothers. When Manus is killed it shows that Fulgrim has fully turned to chaos. Also it gives an opportunity for there to be a Legion that has lost it's primarch. Also IMO i always thought that the Iron Hands, while good at siege, were better at the bionics side of things and also artificer armour and master crafted swords. It says they have very close relations with the adeptus mechanicus while the IF don't as much and (of course) the IW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2088982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Iron Warriors = Master Of Siege Imperial Fists = Masters of Defending against any attack including sieges... Iron cage = What happens when an unstopable force hits an immovable object.... Iron Hands = Something along the lines of Forge masters and mechanical lovers :D So you can see that IW are the rivals of IF nad the IH have nothing to do with either Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I think you're basically right, the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists are basically reflections of one another, with the Iron Hands being a less well fleshed out legion (until recently) that happened to also resemble the IW in their obsession with technology. In motivation however, the Iron Hands and Warriors are world apart with the IH valuing selflessness and the use of bionics purging the fallible flesh to make the astartes closer to some ideal, but since it's the same ideal for all of them it ends up making them lose individuality. Iron Warriors on the other hand augment themselves only for the purposes of personal power as they distrust the gifts of the chaos gods and believe than only their own technology can make them more powerful--in essence the IH want to change who they are with bionics while the IW only want to enhance their abilities, this is probably why one legion turned and the other did not. Also I don't really see the IW as offensive and IF as defensive, after all the IF were the attackers in the Iron Cage incident, to me the legions are very similar, and had circumstances been different, Dorn's fierce martial honor could have become Perturabo's bitter arrogance, it's just that Dorn was treated really well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasleybob Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Here something from Lexicanum that may interest you: "The Imperial Fists, like the Iron Warriors, were siege masters and as such rely greatly on artillery and heavy weapons, although not to the extent of their traitorous former brethren." Shows some difference at least :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Here something from Lexicanum that may interest you: "The Imperial Fists, like the Iron Warriors, were siege masters and as such rely greatly on artillery and heavy weapons, although not to the extent of their traitorous former brethren." Shows some difference at least :rolleyes: I'd actually take that as evidence of how similar they are. For me, its a smaller difference to say that one Legion relies on Heavy weapons to a greater extent then another then to say that both Legions rely a great deal on Heavy Weapons (as opposed to those Chapters who practices a balanced approach or who refused to use anything deemed too slow or static). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasleybob Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Sorry I meant that it shows a wee bit o' difference, but you do with what you got ay? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 There's a huge difference between their ideas of heavy weapons. The fists follow the codex and so don't have a very large selection of heavy weapons. the Iron warriors have titans and basiliks to supplement their firepower, a great big difference. And Imperial fists do conduct lightning assaults. I'd expect them to be quite good at them considering the close adherence to the Codex and the fact that pretty much all marines have to be good at lightning assaults to make up for lack of numbers. Plus the imperial Fists are fleet based so they have to make a lot of orbital assaults and quick boarding actions. people often overestimate just how geared the fists are towards siege warfare. It's something they're good at overseeing and they are good at leading charges into the breach, but they aren't built around siege warfare life the Iron warriors. The fists are a very balanced chapter. The iron hands have nothing in common with the Fists, the only similarity between them and iron warriors are the use of cybernetics and mechanical skill, plus the use of dreads as officers. But this is pretty superficial. The character and motivation of the chapters are very different. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 All three Legions seem to have a thing for massed firepower, as opposed to lightning raids or HtH combat. The Imperial Fists and their successors compete in something called 'The Feast of Blades' and settle disputes with honour duels with a sword... Sounds like a penchant for HtH to me... The Fists were also strategically used by The Emperor during the Great Crusade, often using other Legions to attack the enemy's defensive line and then sending in a surgical strike force of Imperial Fists at the last moment to break the enemy. Surgical strikes FOR breaking sieges is what the Fists ARE good at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Remember as well though that the worlds the Primarchs grew up on influenced the way they fought later in life, as well as help create their personalities, Perturbo was confident to the point of arrogance, Dorn, quiet, mindful and dutiful. Most of the Legions, according to GW have opposite numbers amongst the other legions, and not often Traitors. Some of the greatest rivalries during the Great Crusade were often between Legions who are quite similar to each (even if they wouldn't admit it :P ). Beyond the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors there the following Legions with a degree of overlap (This is just my opinion) Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ, representing the controlled and wild natures of fighting in battle, both grew in similar circumstances, and ended up with different outlooks on life. Both consider themselves to be right and rivals but both would fight to help in in trouble. Alpharius and Guilliman, the young trying to out-do the old, new ideas trying to work in a universe dominated by tradition. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, the perfection in Humanity and the perfection in the Machine. Those were just a small selection of examples of similarities. Most of the legions are the opposite sides of the same coins, and not necessarily just traitors/loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2089964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Remember as well though that the worlds the Primarchs grew up on influenced the way they fought later in life, as well as help create their personalities, Perturbo was confident to the point of arrogance, Dorn, quiet, mindful and dutiful. When I read the fluff I got a different impression. I won't argue the IWs are not arrogant, but I consider the Dorn arrogant as well. Perturabo was bitter, and he was the quite and more reserved of the Primarchs. Now he is arrogant, all IWs are, I won't argue that one . Dorn was prideful, and IMO also very arrogant. During the Iron Cage it was Dorn running around screaming that Perturabo should come out and fight, while Perturabo sat in his fortress thinking up even better ways to kill Dorn. Dorn also refused the help of other Legions when he first discovered the IW base on the planet. He wanted to take them out with just his Legion. Perturabo was actually betting on Dorn's pride to be his downfall. That decision cost Dorn 400 of his marines and a lot of tanks. Then... he asked the Ultramarines for help. Who is arrogant, and who is quite and mindful in that situation? Iron Hands = Something along the lines of Forge masters and mechanical lovers So you can see that IW are the rivals of IF nad the IH have nothing to do with either Peturabo runs around with a hammer called Forgebreaker. Iron Warrior Lords are called Warsmiths. The IW demon world is a giant fortress forge world. Perturabo has also been mentioned in fluff as one of the greatest technological minds of the pre-heresy times. He could discuss anything from advanced star ship engines to titan weapons with the best of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Sorry IWs are VERY much Forge masters and mechanical lovers. And pre-heresy the IWs had an extremely close relationship with the Mechanicus. It says they have very close relations with the adeptus mechanicus while the IF don't as much and (of course) the IW. Pre-heresy according to the IW index astartes= EVERY IW cross trained with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Pre-heresy they were pretty closely tied. Wouldn't surprise me if the IWs helped turn some of the Mechanicus. Both the IWs and IFs focus on offense and defense in seige. The IWs use seige to take a planet, and once they do they build up fortresses and become like a thorne that is almost impossible to remove. Also got that from the IW IA. I wouldn't say all three have a lot in common. I would say that the IWs are the cross between an evil version of the IFs and the IHs. They have a little bit in common with each. The IWs fufill the roles of being the evil siege troops, and being the evil mechanical lovers. And the IWs do have fast strike force style units. In their fluff they mention that when the siege breaks a whole in the enemy fortification or line they have fast moving mobile shooting units(mobile squads, fire support tanks, ect.) that move in and overwhelm the weak point before it can recover. My army is actually built to be one of those formations :P , and anyone who has played me will agree with me on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2090534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 When I read the fluff I got a different impression. I won't argue the IWs are not arrogant, but I consider the Dorn arrogant as well. Perturabo was bitter, and he was the quite and more reserved of the Primarchs. Now he is arrogant, all IWs are, I won't argue that one . Dorn was prideful, and IMO also very arrogant. During the Iron Cage it was Dorn running around screaming that Perturabo should come out and fight, while Perturabo sat in his fortress thinking up even better ways to kill Dorn. Dorn also refused the help of other Legions when he first discovered the IW base on the planet. He wanted to take them out with just his Legion. Perturabo was actually betting on Dorn's pride to be his downfall. That decision cost Dorn 400 of his marines and a lot of tanks. Then... he asked the Ultramarines for help. Who is arrogant, and who is quite and mindful in that situation? See that, to me, reeks of arrogance on Perturabo's behalf. The Primarch sat back and thought Dorn would kill himself in a headlong rush. What he never considered would be that Dorn tearing a chunk out of his warriors, an arrogant man never considers he will be wrong, he believes that everything he does will work out well. (As an aside, Dorn didn't ask for help from the Ultramarines, Guilliman actually landed in the middle of the battle and knocked some sense into Dorn. But that doesn't matter). All Primarchs were arrogant, to a degree, they couldn't conquer the galaxy for the Emperor if they weren't. But some were far more arrogant then others, and that was the problem. Theres an instance which shows Perturabo's fatal flaw, during a feast, Fulgrim asked Dorn if the Imperial Palace on Terra could be breached by siege masters like the Iron Warriors. Dorn replied that any fortress could be held if the warriors defending it were trained and resolved enough. Perturabo only heard "You suck and you boys suck Perty! Bleh!" and fly into a rage. Arrogance knows no limits, and while other warriors might try to learn from a comment like that, Perturabo is only incensed by that comment, taking it as a personal insult. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2090623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 See that, to me, reeks of arrogance on Perturabo's behalf. The Primarch sat back and thought Dorn would kill himself in a headlong rush. What he never considered would be that Dorn tearing a chunk out of his warriors, an arrogant man never considers he will be wrong, he believes that everything he does will work out well. (As an aside, Dorn didn't ask for help from the Ultramarines, Guilliman actually landed in the middle of the battle and knocked some sense into Dorn. But that doesn't matter). It also shows Dorn's arrogance, assuming everything he does will work out well was a big one there. They are both arrogant. That is exaclty what I was saying. I agree Pertuabo is arrogant. But the conversation about the palace hits home on something even bigger, how bitter he was. He wasn't primarily pissed off because Dorn made a comment about how strong the fortress was. He was pissed off more about the fact that the IWs, the master fortress builders weren't commissioned to build the defenses in the first place. In IW fluff this comes up a number of times. They were asked to build fortresses and garrison them all across the galaxy, and then the one time they really look forward to building defenses and garrisoning the IFs get the job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2090673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 It also shows Dorn's arrogance, assuming everything he does will work out well was a big one there. They are both arrogant. That is exaclty what I was saying. But everything did. Dorn knew the Iron Cage was a trap, that his Legion would be decimated (true sense of the word!) by it, that was the plan. He went in knowing that his most head-strong, most loyal and staunchly loyal Marines, the ones who had been with the Legion since before it found him, the ones who would NEVER accept the Codex Astartes, the ones committed to one overriding style of warfare, would die. Who came out? The zealous, fanatical Fists, eager and vengeful, having just got a tiny bit of experience. - Led by Sigismund to become the Black Templars. The younger, level-headed and fresh from the training camps formed the Crimson Fists Boarding Party experts apparently formed the Soul Drinkers (sigh...) The Imperial Fists that came out were lean, balanced and determined, with a wealth of combat experience under their belt and tactically flexible. Dorn got a Chapter that excelled at whatever it did. Perturabo may have won one victory, grabbing the gene-seed from the field of battle, but Dorn got a force that the Iron Warriors continue to feud with for millennia, rather than something that could have easily been routed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2090774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 I wouldn't say all three have a lot in common. I would say that the IWs are the cross between an evil version of the IFs and the IHs. They have a little bit in common with each. The IWs fufill the roles of being the evil siege troops, and being the evil mechanical lovers. Well said, maybe thats just what they were going for. To use the Iron Warriors as evil reflections of the other two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2091255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 It would be easer to tell if the IH had the depth of fluff the other 2 legions have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2091376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Engel Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 It would be easer to tell if the IH had the depth of fluff the other 2 legions have. ... You mean like half of 'Fulgrim?' <_< Even if their Primarch stole the back story for Vulkan... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2091851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Perhaps Perturabo had reason to be more arrogant than Dorn. At the end of the day, he's an immortal demigod of the warp, and Dorn is dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176670-iron-warriors-imperial-fists-and-iron-hands/#findComment-2093852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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