Rapid fire issues

[lifter]

Boltguns

Hey guys, I'm having real trouble seeing the potential and advantages of rapid fire weapons. The boltgun in particular.

 

Scenario 1:

A squad of 9 space marines with bolters and a sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword is 12" away from a squad of 10 orks, space marine turn. Movement phase.

 

Alternative one: Rapid fire range to fire the two shots, thats 18 shots from the marines and one from the sergeant, 19 total . No assault. The orks in their turn, move 6", fire ten bolt pistol shots and then assault with their two attacks each plus one on the charge thats 30 attacks so a total of 40.

 

Alternative two: Move 12", fire 10 bolt pistol shots each and then assault with one attack each for the marines and two attacks for the sergeant. Plus one for doing the charge, thats 22 attacks so 32 total.

 

Scenario 2:

A squad of 9 space marines with bolters and a sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword is 14" away from a squad of 10 orks, space marine turn. Movement phase.

 

Alternative one: Move 2" to get within rapid fire range, fire two shots each rapid fire, thats 18 shots fired from the space marines. The orks however are now in move-shoot-assault range so thats 40 attacks on the marines.

 

Alternative two: Stay still and fire one shot each, 9 total and the orks are too far away from move-shoot-assault.

 

My problem is, when is it ever worth it to get in range to fire the two shots? I don't see it. To me the bolter is quite useless since you only get the 24" one-shot when the marines are standing still wich basically makes the bolter a heavy weapon with st4 ap5 witch isn't very heavy at all. I just don't see the point of rapid fire weapons. Could someone please show me a good perspective of using rapid fire weapons? I feel like I'm missing something.

[Koremu]

Move Rhino 12", disembark, Rapid Fire, Profit.

 

Or the same move but with a Drop Pod.

[lifter]

But why would I want to disembark them within move-shoot-assault-range from the orks? Why, in that case, not stay in the rhino and shoot from it? I know, only two shots, but still.. AV11. In that case.

 

Either way, the scenario is without the rhino.

 

The problem is, the way I see it is you have to do everything you can to replace the boltguns with something useful but is that really all they are good for? Beeing replaced...?

[waaanial00]

Least Tactical? I think of them as most tactical becuase you have to carefully consider what you are doing and play the odds and hope for the best.

 

Unlike assault weapons you cant just advance spray a load of shots then maul in for the kill, thats the sort of blunt tactics a Ork uses.

 

No with the Tactical marines you have to use your movement and shooting sparingly and to its best tactical advantage. Do you move and shoot the unit closest to you twice? Do you stay put and shoot at another unit further away and get your heavy in on the action? Do you move in for the kill and fire pistols before chargng into a close opponent whilst leaving one further away alone.

 

Is it fluffy? Is it as effective as having Assault weapons? Maybe not

Is it in keeping with Tactical Marines flexibility? I think so.

 

Would I like Bolters to be assault? Yes please but then again marines are plenty powerful enough as it is, you just need to learn to get them to work for you.

 

I still fancy using Bikes as troops so you get away from the inherent weakness of the Rapid Fire whilst keeping its ability to shoot more at closer ranges.

 

Wan

 

Edit: answering the question about you cant shoot from a transport if you move more it than 6". So you would be shooting from the Storm Bolter alone. You also sacrifice shooting power for durability if you stay in the transport.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

Off the top of my head...

 

You're shooting at something that's not charging you next turn

You're getting out of a transport

You're in terrain and they have to roll to cover the 12" between you

 

probably some others that I'm forgetting

[lifter]

So we can all agree on the fact that Rapid Fire weapons only exist to limit troops from beeing to killy?

 

It's wierd. It feels like something someone came up with to keep the marines from beeing too good and since then all other armies got better but the boltgun stayed nootered.

 

I think it should be two shots at 12", one at 24" and the ability to assault. Hell, give it st3 just as long as it keeps units from firing their weapons and then just standing there looking stupid high-fiving eachother.

 

-Good shooting brother!

-Aw, you too brother!

-No, no, you shot was far superior.

-I insist on disagreeing brother. Your shot was mighty well placed.

-*Death by ork*

[Schertenleib]

Alternative Three: Stay at 12" fire rapid fire weapons, and wait for ork assualt. Then "Space Wolves! Counter-attack!" 2 attacks I4 ;)

[Skoby]

The way I see it in the latest codex is that tactical marines dont actually carry pistols instead if you choose to fire the "pistols" it represents them firing as they charge, the fact it's only a single shot represents the loss of accuracy or less shots fired. I would love to see more assault weapons available to marines, but I think the current ruleset represents tactical marines better than other editions, the fact is that now marine players have a choice and can choose to play different styles depending on their style or the situation. If bolters were assault weapons then marines would be sent in to assault the enemy almost every time.

 

This may be going slightly off topic, but before cityfight came out a gaming group I went to came up with a set of rules for urban fighting or smaller skirmishes (funnily enough it included combating squading certain units ;)) but part of it was that you could choose to ignore any firing restrictions for movement but got a penalty to your BS (and a penalty to get hot or other gun related firing penalties) it made the games interesting but certain units became quite broken, and well I personally thing tactical marines work really well as it is now.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

So we can all agree on the fact that Rapid Fire weapons only exist to limit troops from beeing to killy

 

No we cannot.

 

You have to use the tactical squad ... surprise ... tactically. Yes, there are situations where rapid fire isn't the best option, but just as many, if not more, where it is invaluable.

[Azulz]

Move Rhino 12", disembark, Rapid Fire, Profit.

 

Or the same move but with a Drop Pod.

I thought you couldn't disembark after moving at cruising speed?

[Koremu]

But why would I want to disembark them within move-shoot-assault-range from the orks? Why, in that case, not stay in the rhino and shoot from it? I know, only two shots, but still.. AV11. In that case.

 

Either way, the scenario is without the rhino.

 

You wouldn't want to be within move-shoot-assault range of an Ork bigmob. But you could safely be there if your firpower was backing up an Assault Squad who were going in for the charge on the bigmob. Then next turn you can mount back up in the Rhino and trundle off towards the next objective.

 

That's tactics.

 

Move Rhino 12", disembark, Rapid Fire, Profit.

 

Or the same move but with a Drop Pod.

I thought you couldn't disembark after moving at cruising speed?

 

You thought wrong. Didn't I explain this to you a couple of days ago in another thread?

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

You have the bolt pistol too, I've defeat 4 ten man squads of orks and a trukk by careful moving, shooting and bolter assault/sweep.

[Twin .44]

I can give you a good reason to not rapid fire on a unit. staring down a 9 man sternguard unit with Kantor. yeah, charge them!

 

But i've rapid fired many times before. Non extended carapace genestealers is a big one. even with XC.

[Grey Mage]

But why would I want to disembark them within move-shoot-assault-range from the orks? Why, in that case, not stay in the rhino and shoot from it? I know, only two shots, but still.. AV11. In that case.

 

Either way, the scenario is without the rhino.

 

The problem is, the way I see it is you have to do everything you can to replace the boltguns with something useful but is that really all they are good for? Beeing replaced...?

What makes you think you have a choice about being within assault range of orks?

 

Theres something called a WAAAGGHH that they can do that gives you fleet orks once a game- combined with bikers, dethkoptas and trukks means the likelyhood of you getting to choose assault or not assault is practically nil.

 

What you CAN do, and rapid firing helps with is take pot shots at range to thin down their numbers and then rapid fire the hell out of them to try and make the squad small enough to be manageable in CC. If your particularly good, or lucky, you might get the charge off yourself- though rhinos help with that, alot.

[Brother Evar]

I always thought infantry w/ rapid fire weapons should be able to move and shoot full range like bikers do. Then that would be awsome. So move 6- 12 inches and shoot bolters once 24' for example. So a bolter ends up shooting as far as a HB!

[jeffersonian000]

Space Marines have Bolt Pistols in 5th Ed because Rapid Fire weapons use to be able to be fired once at 12" and you could then still assault, or fired twice at 12" and you could not assault. By giving Marines pistols, they retain this ability that is now denied to older codecii that have Rapid Fire carrying units without pistols (ex: Sisters of Battle).

 

SJ

[Frosty the Pyro]

If you rapid fire (19 shots) you are killing ~6.3 orks, leaving 4 orks. who then shoot you killing .22 marines, they then charge you, your marines have higher initive and strike first with 12 attacks (okay technicly 11.78 attacks) killing another 2.5 orks leaving just slightly over 1 ork left (likely a nob) to attack you back with 5 attacks (3 base+1 two weapons+1 charge) killing another 1/2 marine, next assult phase he dies. and you have lost ~1 marine.

 

Also so you know, a charging boy gets 4 attacks each (2 base+1 two weapons+1charge)

 

If you shoot and then assult you kill about 3.3 orks shooting and then charge for 22 attacks killing another 4.5 orks, this leaves about 2 orks to attack back at you (4 nob attacks and 3 boy attacks), killing about 1/2 marine. In this case there is little difference between charging and beng charged except if you charge your putting your marines deape in enemy teritory, and if you rapid fire your not

[Koremu]

I'd like to point out that against most players your casualties will be higher than this because the Nob will have a Power Klaw.

 

However, largely your decision in that case would be made by your squads tactical disposition (do you want to move or to hold?) and by your squads combination of Special and Heavy Weaponry. Flamer + Multi-Melta you probably want to move forward, Plasma Gun + Heavy Bolter, not so much.

[Grey Mage]

Ive been looking around the boards a bit and I just have to say- its frickin hilarious just how many times people say something isnt tactical because.....

 

wait for it....

 

your gonna love it....

 

They have to use Tactics to get the best use out of it!

 

Apparently if the weapon/unit/tank is tactical you dont have to have any yourself! Why didnt I catch on to that sooner....

[Lord Sinaris]

The tactical flexibility of the Boltgun does not stem from its ability to be used in the same way wherever you are, but from the fact that depending on your position and your enemy, you chose what to do with it B)

 

You can either holster it, and rely on your sturdy Boltpistol (though I very much like the interpretation of the marines actually using their bolters one-handed, on the move or something). As has been stated before, this might not necessarily grant your more killing power, but it will probably negate some of the enemies, in ensuring they don't get to charge you and, again depending on who the charged unit is, cover your unit from fire or charges from a third unit the next turn. Also, it might just simply move your marines further forward towards the position you want to reach.

 

Using the Bolter at maxrange is probably not the best option, but it comes in handy if you need to defend a specific location, fire your heavy weapon at an approaching enemy barely in range of your normal bolters, stuff like that. Its nice to have the option obviously.

 

Finally, shooting in "charge"-range with Rapid Fire makes a lot more sense then some here make it sound. Remember especially two points:

 

1. Enemies getting reduced in numbers sufficently during the shooting phase might be forced to retreat. Whilst not a reliable tactic to fall back on, having a dangerous enemy retreat during your shooting before he ever gets a chance to turn into a threat is VERY satisfying.

 

2. There are quite a few enemies out there against whom your charge will be worthless, and which you will need to get as low as possible before they completly slaughter you. This will most likely be CC units, seeing how shooty units would be best handled by locking them in combat most of the time. But against an approaching CC-killer-unit, which your first round of attacks either won't hurt (high WS, T, good saves, stuff like that), or will never actually connect (high enemy initiative, they kill you first), having your buys shoot the hell out of them is probably the better idea. When every attack you take from them hurts them a lot (i.e. Banshees?), go for shooting them as soon as possible, before they can ever strike back in force.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In the scenarios you have listed you are fairly correct in your conclusions about the bolter (although you do forget to count the damage you'll cause as somone else already pointed out.) However, these scenarios are too limited a view and do not account for larger factors in the battle such as focus fire, and rapid firing a unit that is then assaulted by another.

 

We don't have to go to a much larger scale to see how things could work out. Imagine 2 blobs of ork boyz (30 man squads) vs 2 tac squads in rhinos. If each tac squad picks a boyz squad and goes one to one with it you get destroyed. But if you use the mobility of your rhinos to set it up so that your two tac squads are rapidfiring one mob while staying outside the range of the other its very different. 2 squads rapidfiring will inflict significant casualities. Depending on your specials you could easily average 10 wounds per squad. And since you rapid fired, you didn't move closer. Sure they'll charge you next turn, but a charge from a ten man boyz squad isn't intimidating. As long as you've positioned right, you'll mop that up fast and then be able to do the same thing to the other squad you outmanuevered before.

[Spacefrisian]

Why move up close to an Ork unit if its full strength. Thats not very tactical. You should have shot them down with Devastators and Predators before hand, thats Tactical.

[Koremu]

I don't tend to use Devastators, and the Predator will be can-hunting.

 

Now the Whirlwind and the Vindicator...

[waaanial00]

Or the Thunderfire ....

 

Last night I played a hoard Ork player (report being written up later) and it was invaluable (killing 11 Lootas turn 1, 11 Boys turn 2, 6 Boys turn 3, 12 Boys turn 4, 2 Nobs turn 5, 3 Nobs turn 6). Never once took a single shot either :)

 

On the topic I have to agree with Grey Mage about the tactical weapons needing tactics to make them work. Had a chuckle at this one, it certainly brightened up my day.

 

The hard part is when the difference between rapid firing and one shot assaulting is not that much but the situation is very important. This is when you have to go with your gut and take what "the Lady" gives you. Sure if they were assault you could do both but then they wouldnt be Tacticals anymore.

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Oi, I find my biggest factor in rapid firing or bolt pistoling is normally what my marines are armed with *SWs :)*

 

But on the codex note, I find that its mostly the enemies armor save and wether or not they have furious charge- if its a 4+ or better armor save I might as well take the one shot and assault to save myself the pain of being assaulted. If its 5+ or 6+ then I might as well shoot because it basicly makes my men hit like they have powerweapons, and sometimes even hit more often *like say vs orks*.