How do you use your snipers?

[thade]

With only a fair ballistic skill and the inability to fire and move in the same turn, they are pretty limited and poor at chasing things; they feel to me like their true value is in holding gaps on the table while sitting in cover...and holding gaps against high toughness/hard-to-kill units (i.e. plague marines, wraithlords, etc). How do you all use your snipers?

[Skoby]

If you are running Lysander or a techmarine then bolster defences and camo cloaks make them very survivable against most things, alternatively (and I don't have much experience with this) but they can be infiltrated into cover and allow them to target enemy mid-long range squads and I am not 100% on this but I think their scout move allows them to fire as if stationary in first turn still.

 

Another good tactic is if you keep them in your deployment zone if you have devestators (and to lesser extent other long range units) keep them fairly near by, my friend regularly does this and is suprised when plasma cannons and other ap3 or lower weapons are aimed at the scouts rather than devestators, also if the enemy start getting too close to the home objective for comfort the heavy weapon support can help destroy/break them.

 

They key thing is that often they will be thought of as the smallest threat in your army, added to their ability to dig in to cover without compromising their performance and then they can easily make their points back, and with the cover they will either take a disproportionate amount of fire to remove them or weapons that would do more damage elsewhere.

[minigun762]

I don't play Loyalists, but what I'd say that they could do well is camp objectives in your deployment zone.

Paired with a Heavy Bolter, you have a unit that can lay down hurt out to 36" away, thats better then Firewarriors.

Sure its only BS3, but in a squad of 8-10 thats 4-5 hits per turn which isn't horrible considering the added range, Rending and ability to wound anything.

 

Hell they even have a chance against armor if you get really lucky.

[Vel'Cona]

I don't, but were I to take Scouts I would definitely consider a large Squad with SR, HB, and Camo. Park 'em on an objective from turn one (preferably in some trees or behind a big wall), and, provided the rest of your army is doing the fighting, most opponents will ignore them until it's too late to take their prize. While they certainly aren't going to wipe out much of anything over the course of 5-7 turns, they can be instrumental for weakening big horde units, or snagging the occasional wound or two off the big gribblies. They also look really cool (though not so much in Salamanders colors, IMO).

[greatcrusade08]

Forget camo cloaks, you can add in Telion for nearly the same cost..

 

IMO most guys take out snipers with podding dreads or heavy flamers of some description, cloaks dont do diddly against either.

 

ten men with ML and Telion is 200 points, if you want to go cheaper, ten men with ML is 150 points.... amazing for what they can achieve.

 

Gc08

[Koremu]

I don't tbh. I've only found my Sniper Scouts to be worthwhile in very small points games. They are curently relegated to the back of the display case, gathering dust.

[Martellus]

Forget camo cloaks, you can add in Telion for nearly the same cost..

 

IMO most guys take out snipers with podding dreads or heavy flamers of some description, cloaks dont do diddly against either.

 

ten men with ML and Telion is 200 points, if you want to go cheaper, ten men with ML is 150 points.... amazing for what they can achieve.

 

Gc08

 

+++Never got a good answer if Telion's Stealth ability transfered to the entire squad or not. If not, then he's not worth it unless you really want that BS6 missile launcher shot. If it does, then he's a bargain for what he brings to the table. But now we're comparing apples to oranges in terms of capability based on an interpretation.

 

Camo cloaks and Boltered Defenses are the ultimate defensive combination if you want to "camp out" on your objective and frustrate the enemy. If you're wasting a Drop Pod Dread to go after scouts, you've got some issues with target priority.

 

Reason for edit: corrected BS from 5 to 6

[greatcrusade08]

Camo cloaks and Boltered Defenses are the ultimate defensive combination if you want to "camp out" on your objective and frustrate the enemy. If you're wasting a Drop Pod Dread to go after scouts, you've got some issues with target priority.

 

Well thats a matter of personal opinion!

If the scouts are camped out near other enemy units, why not target them with a dread?? and since heavy flamers ignore cover your bypassing the 2++ saves as mentioned above.

 

Telion doesnt confer stealth onto his squad, other wise he would only be +20 points, which for his stat line and skills is completely absurd.

 

Most of my opponents know first hand how much of a nuisance and danger Telion is, he constantly performs well and many enemy squads find themselves leaderless and without heavy weapons due to his EOV rule. If i ever face him hes first priority for a podding unit.

 

Gc08

[Koremu]

((Telion))'s not worth it unless you really want that BS6 missile launcher shot.

The main reason to take Telion is the ability to assign his shots (hopefully Rending) to squad leaders, weapon specialists or otherwise unusual models within a unit.

 

/sniping Apothecaries is a particular favourite.

[Jamumools]

@greatcrusade08 - are you saying Telion does NOT confer stealth to the squad?

[Koremu]

Telion confering Stealth to the squad comes down to whether you consider Telion or the Scout Squad to be a "unit" for the purposes of the Stealth USR. It is at least debatable either way.

[Jamumools]

For what it's worth I run 8 scouts, 7 with snipers and 1 missile launcher. I tend to camp them on an objective (in cover) in my deployment where they get a 3+ cover save and are very hard to shift, except in combat (where they die horribly). They don't tend to do much all game but they are great for holding objectives and they usually do one good thing all game, whether that's to pop a rhino or force a squad to go to ground. They never get their points back in terms of kills but that's not why they're there...

[ShinyRhino]

I haven't used mine in quite some time. Mostly because I only own enough to fill out a squad of five. That's just not enough shots downrange to do enough damage in a given turn. I'd rather have the points for beefing out other units.

But, once I have the time to fill out a ten-man squad, they'll be getting a missile launcher. The heavy bolter is nice, but I find myself needing the krak shot more often, and not having it.

[waaanial00]

I find objective campers to be a bit of a waste with my playing style. I find it limits my ability to react to the enemy if I am stuck with a static unit anchored to a single location.

 

I am also starting to deploy objectives closer to the enemy, reason being that it usually hampers their movement options if they dont have to move very far to hold an objective whereas I have more freedom of movement when it comes to attacking them. I also tend to put them into a position where it provides more cover for me and less for them.

 

However i digress. As GC will attest to I am the official Bad Luck Troll for all sniper scouts. I have personally run a unit of 5 scout snipers with a HB over 5 or 6 games and never killed a thing with them. Its not that they are a bad unit its just they require a lot more luck than normal marines because they hit 1/6 less.

 

If I were to have the models I would run 20 of the suckers. With that many dice you can expect a lot of wounds and therefore a lot of pinning checks. Dont forget that these betties are a very cheap way of stopping transports, given enough shots and a decent amount of luck. If you have nothing better to shoot at then you can do a lot worse than shooting 10 snipers at a rhino for example, all you need is 4, 6, 3/4 and you have a glancing hit.

 

If you have a lot of them (7+) I would keep them cheap and ignore the camo cloaks. Resiliance to shooting is not really a great thing for something which generates so little kills. It only takes a single transport to tank shock you and your relatively expensive objective sitters are completely countered without even taking the trouble to kill them. Sending even a tactical squad to flame and pistol whip you will secure something a lot easier than you might think. Either that or a good Whirly or Thunderfire shooting phase should see the majority of them wiped out without too much hassle.

 

As for the target priority retoric about how a DP dread is a waste against a sniper unit on an objective, its all realtive and not absolute. Turn 1 maybe there are better targets, turn 4 and you have nothing close enough to get there by turn 5 and it becomes a little more urgent. Hell even if you just drop the dread near the objective and use the dread to attack something else it still neuters the snipers battle plan. Cant hold an objective that is being contested by an AV12 vehicle :P

 

Wan

[ShinyRhino]

If I were to have the models I would run 20 of the suckers. With that many dice you can expect a lot of wounds and therefore a lot of pinning checks. Dont forget that these betties are a very cheap way of stopping transports, given enough shots and a decent amount of luck. If you have nothing better to shoot at then you can do a lot worse than shooting 10 snipers at a rhino for example, all you need is 4, 6, 3/4 and you have a glancing hit.

 

If you have a lot of them (7+) I would keep them cheap and ignore the camo cloaks. Resiliance to shooting is not really a great thing for something which generates so little kills. It only takes a single transport to tank shock you and your relatively expensive objective sitters are completely countered without even taking the trouble to kill them. Sending even a tactical squad to flame and pistol whip you will secure something a lot easier than you might think. Either that or a good Whirly or Thunderfire shooting phase should see the majority of them wiped out without too much hassle.

 

I'll echo both of these statements 100%. I played in a small 750 point tourney over the weekend. I brought a bog-standard force of a couple tacticals in Rhinos, chapter master, and a quartet of bikes.

One round I faced a guy who took two 5-man sniper scouts units (one with Telion), Vulkan, podded Dread, and some Hammernators.

Withnothing else to shoot at (I was blocking LOS to my infantry with my Rhinos and terrain), he started blasting sniper shots at my Rhinos. His dice were hot, and he actually managed to shake and eventually immobilize on of my Rhinos withnothing but sniper shots.

Of course, he was camping his objective with one unit, so I floored my last Rhino 12" for a couple turns, Hammernators chasing it on foot, and slammed it into his snipers on the objective. Tank shock! The snipers failed their morale check and ran off the board. I forced a tie with nothing but two Rhinos left on the board.

In THEORY, you could even penetrate a Land Raider with sniper shots (would require the rending roll, a 5 or 6 for your +d3, and then another 6. Long odds, lol.

[Koremu]

It has to be said that the leasy availability of immunity to pinning checks is a large part of my indifference to Sniper Scouts.

[Martellus]

+++Koremu,

 

Concur. There are better choices in the list than sniper scouts. GC08 did good analysis on the effectiveness of scouts and I find that sniper scouts aren't as tactically flexible as CC equipped scouts.

 

That stated, I enjoy the look of frustration on my opponent's face when he realizes that scouts with a 2++ are almost impossible to effect with ranged weapons (templates excluded). I may consider employing Telion just to see if he's worth the points cost and potential upward revision in threat category.

 

Martellus+++

[Skoby]

I've got the rulebook infront of me, how does a sniper rifle penetrate a land raider? They are str 3 against vehicles, plus 6 from the D6 which allows and extra D3, maximum score is 12, unless I'm missing something critical.

 

I have also just thought about the benifits of 10 man squads, when not playing anihilation you could choose to combat squad, which whilst there are the usual disadvantages, if you cause a wound on an enemy unit and they fail their pinning test, the second combat squad can target another squad to potentially pin 2 squads, and if they pass the first pinning test, they would still have to take a second pinning test if the second combat squad causes a wound.

 

I am still unconvinced by the idea of Telion providing stealth for the squad, I was actually suprised that when the FAQ came out he wasn't changed to just have a camo cloak, to think that for a net cost of 20 points you get better WS and BS6, his targetting rule, ability to pass on BS6 and acute senses (handy for DoW). It just doesn't seem right even if the RAW suggests that. If someone used it against me I know I would be dubious about it.

[greatcrusade08]

Telion does not confer the Stealth onto the squad, there is no rule that allows this, regardless of the A + B = C arguments, there is NO rule that states an upgarde character confers rules onto the squad.

Also if we used IC rules he wouldnt be able to confer either as its not on the list of rules that confer...

 

You just cant argue this point ^^, but it doenst stop people from trying! If theres no written rule to back up your argument, go home and have a cup of tea.

 

Gc08

[ShinyRhino]

I've got the rulebook infront of me, how does a sniper rifle penetrate a land raider? They are str 3 against vehicles, plus 6 from the D6 which allows and extra D3, maximum score is 12, unless I'm missing something critical.

 

Maybe I was doing it wrong. I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but in that game we were running it S6 on the Rending hit, +d3, +standard d6 for vehicle hit.

[Jamumools]

Sorry you've got it wrong. Snipers are strength 3 against vehicles so 3 + 6 +D3 is maximum of 12. You can't get through landraiders...

 

Telion's weapon is not a sniper rifle and has a strength of 4 against whichever target, but it is rending and pinning.

[Hellios]

Also if we used IC rules he wouldnt be able to confer either as its not on the list of rules that confer...

 

You just cant argue this point ^^, but it doenst stop people from trying! If theres no written rule to back up your argument, go home and have a cup of tea.

 

Gc08

 

The problem is simply badly written rules by GW as the stealth rule says all of the unit's (where one might argue it should say models) cover saves are improved by +1.

 

The IC arguement is moot as Telion is not an IC. Nor is he a unit in his own right. For example if they had made a special scout squad sergeant upgrade which was say 40pts called Master of Stealth that gave him all of Telions abillities you would not go around he is not the same unit as the scouts he is with. Its the fact he has his own entry that causes this as he is infact just a normal squad upgrade... although I admit a unique one.

 

From that point of view the unit is telion and his boys. However as you say an IC dosen't confer it on a unit they join (even while they count as one unit) and no other unit in the game has the abillity to do this without every model in the squad having the rule.

 

So TBH I don't see where this really strong arguement that you can't do it is because stealths rule clearly states the unit's cover save is improved not the models.

 

There is even an arguement to be made that as an IC becomes part of a unti when he joins it that as stealth is neither lost by an IC who has it or a squad that has it when joined by the other that hasn't that an attached IC or squad with stealth confers it on the other while joined. Except of course the bit with the title SPECIAL RULES: states " Unless specified in the rule itself (see stubborn), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. What I want to make clear is that this specific about IC not just characters in general.

 

Now I think RAI they may have meant for it to be otherwise but thats how it is written.

[ShinyRhino]

Sorry you've got it wrong. Snipers are strength 3 against vehicles so 3 + 6 +D3 is maximum of 12. You can't get through landraiders...

 

Telion's weapon is not a sniper rifle and has a strength of 4 against whichever target, but it is rending and pinning.

 

Haha, I checked it out during lunch. Whoops!

[greatcrusade08]

So TBH I don't see where this really strong arguement that you can't do it is because stealths rule clearly states the unit's cover save is improved not the models.

 

look up the definition of unit at the beginning of the rule book, it says can be a MC, or single model etc..

Also there are no rules that cover upgrade characters so the argument cannot be made, anyways this is going off topic...

 

Gc08

[Grey Mage]

Theres a reason Telions Stealth ability is in the Grey Area thread just two subforums up...