Gk shrouding on ordnance weapons

[veidin]

Hey I have a game today and am curious just so I know how to handle this. The codex says that if an odnance weapon fails the shrouding check it scatters twice as far, but can he even still target me due to not being able to see? Im assuming that it still targets normally and if it is on target it still hits?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Yes he can and I believe this is being partially clouded (enshrouded?) by the former definition of Guess fire weaponry. In other words, the shooter can’t really “see” the target but he’s going to “guess” at their general vicinity and let fly. Which means that 1/3 of the time, the scatter die will still provide a direct hit even though the shrouding check failed; even more so after you factor in ballistic skill adjustments.

 

So look out for them battle cannons & earthshakers. They can still make for a bad day for them pricy GK units caught in the open.

 

-OMG

[veidin]

Cool that answers that so basically he checks shroud, if successful shoot as normal, if failed double the scatter in the event of scatter. Easy enough! :D

[gil galed]

Does failing the shrouding check not make you automatically scatter or am i misremembering?

[angry man]

the scatter distance is doubled if the shrouding check is failed -- but dont forget to deduct your BS before you double

 

AM

[jeffersonian000]

I'm pretty sure you do not subtract BS from a barrage attack that fails to spot Grey Knights due to Shrouding. Per Shrouding, if the attack is a direct fire shooting attack, failed Shrouding means no shot is fired. However, if the shot is indirect, a failed Shrouding means a doubled scatter distance. When do you ever subtract BS from an indirect shot?

 

SJ

[veidin]

Question isnt about barrage though, the question is about ordnance. If a Vindicator shoots at me and fails its shroud, does it scatter double or not shoot at all since its direct fire?

[SeattleDV8]

The shrouding doubles the distance of guess (barrage) and ordnance weapons.

The Vindicator would be allowed to fire its Cannon, but the scatter would be doubled.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Everyone here is correct. The Shrouding specifically mentions, “Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them.” For most shooting attacks the shot just fails, the exceptions being Ordnance and Guess range (now called Barrage) type weapons.

 

Failing this check, the shooters of these weapons suffer the additional scatter penalty. In the case of Barrage shots, “Barrage weapons can fire at a target they cannot see, but if they do this, the BS of the firer makes no difference and the blast marker scatters a full 2D6"if an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice.” BRB pg. 32.

 

So strangely enough, Ordnance weapon shooters still subtract BS but Barrage does not.

 

-OMG

[nighthawks]

and non-ordinance, non-barrage scatter weapons scatter normally, but must pass shrouding vs. range as normal, right?

[jeffersonian000]

In order to fire a blast weapon, you must be able to draw line of sight to an enemy model; a failed Shrouding roll prevents you from drawing line of sight to a Grey Knight unit. As such, you would not be able to fire a blast weapon at a Grey Knight unit if you fail the check for Shrouding. Barrage weapon do not require line of sight, and therefore follow a different set of rules where Shrouding is involved.

 

SJ

[OwlandMoonGuy]

and non-ordinance, non-barrage scatter weapons scatter normally, but must pass shrouding vs. range as normal, right?

Yep. For Blast weapons I believe a failed check would be the same as checking range and finding that you guessed long or that the shooter didn’t actually have LoS to the target. You don’t roll for scatter, the shots just fail. If the shooter passes the check the shots scatter normally.

 

(non-Barrage) Ordnance weapons also require LoS but are included in the exception so as long as they were in range, the shooter may fire at will even after a failed check.

 

It’s all overly complicated IMHO. How about we solve all this with a new C:DH? That’s my vote.

 

-OMG

[veidin]

So just for clarification.

 

Ordnance: Can shoot regardless of shroud but failure means double scatter IF scatter is rolled (minus BS)

Barrage: Same as ordnance but no reduction from BS if guess range

Blast templated (frag rockets etc): Must pass shroud to even fire at unit targeted.

 

All good?

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Yep, that sums it up. -OMG

[Frosty the Pyro]

Big question, does bs subtract before or after doubling scater.

[nighthawks]

before - the scatter distance is the 2D6-BS, doubling it would be 2*(2D6-BS) not 2*2D6-BS