I am a wee bit wary of Orks.

[thade]

My army has (by virtue of my love for melee and jump troops) a penchant for assaults; two jump squads (each with flamers) and a vanguard form the center piece. I have two tac squads, a terminator squad, snipers, two dreadnoughts (MM and AC dreads), and a single tank (a whirlwind). At 1750 pts, I can take *almost* all of that with me...and that leaves me to deal with roughly 180+ orks if it's a Tide. Here is my fear:

 

My assault troops, if they do get the charge (hoping Orks don't go Waaagh or get the drop on me), get two flamers (avg 2-3 wounds ea. to be generous) and bonus attacks = 2 PF attacks + 16 attacks. This is at best equal to the unit of boyz...possibly half the unit of boyz if it's a full 30 ork unit. If the orks get the charge, that is a LOT of dice hitting the table. As their WS and Toughness are equal to mine, I see this going poorly for me. I'd rather change tactics then my force composition (it's a fluff thing)...so I'm not sure what to do.

 

That said, I haven't yet faced a Tide. But it is on mind. How have your battles with Green Tides gone?

[Koremu]

Against Orks, 3 kills with a Flamer is not unreasonable. More is entirely possible - any Horde army tends to bunch up, especially if they have to navigate narrow defiles to avoid area terrain.

 

Assault Marines are more mobile than Orks (even Fleet Orks can only just match them on a good day).

 

On average, an Assault Squad should kill about 15 orks on the charge. Your return casualties should be minimal, and the Fearless saves will proceed to decimate the unit (or, if you push them below 11 models, they will break).

 

If you can take 5 models out of an Ork unit with various ranged shooting (before the assault marines shooting and assault), you markedly improve your chances of winning the overall combat. If you can kill 10, you practically guarantee that the first turn of assault will shatter the mob.

 

Do not under any circumstances get charged by an Ork Bigmob. Remember that both Jump Pack Assault Marines and anything in a Rhino is never slowed by difficult terrain - use that to prevent the Orks from charging you.

 

Any vertical terrain is especially important - The Bigmob will be unable to climb efficiently, while the Assault Squad will be able to jump down from the top to the floor in one movement.

 

It is probably worthwhile posting the wisdom of the Tactica Imperium at this point;

If the enemy comes on in a great horde, as Orks are wont to do, then try to direct them into a narrow defile or enclosed space, such that their numbers work against them. Crowded together those at the front will impede those behind, whilst the push from the rear will prevent those at the front from retreating or finding a better path.

[Vel'Cona]

What I think is interesting about the whole "Green Tide" concern that many players have, is that they don't realize how much of a pain it is to buy, paint, and transport 180 Ork Boyz. That's alot of stuff, and it's rather redundant to play and even more redundant to build. Not to mention the sighs that come from opponents at the other end of the table, that really don't look forward to waiting ages for their opponent to move 180 black primed (maybe 25% painted) Orks up the table. It goes right along with the "Flying Circus" situation for IG; most players simply won't want to shell out the cash for specialized carrying cases (not to mention the models themselves, 60 bucks for a 100 point model!!!) to do the 6+ Valk/Vendetta lists we've seen trolling the forums.

 

That said, I think in most cases you won't see the general Ork player throwing more than 3-4 Boyz Mobs, and often they don't use the full 30. Even in this case, it can be difficult to thin those numbers to manageable levels without a lot of forward thinking. Assault armies can still do well, but require far more positioning and timing to manage than the traditional "thin 'em with shooting" approach many C:SM players adopt.

 

The first thing I can suggest, is to balance your forces carefully. As most players know, an army made to do one thing (and one thing only) will often fail against the army that is able to counter that strategy soundly. Even though you're playing an assault force, it's not out of the way to use units like Terminators and WWs to weaken up the Mobs before launching the finishing assault. Consider some more armored support that can keep pace with your assault elements, such as Dakkapreds and maybe the TFC (which is amazingly effective against Orks). These units have the side effect of being relatively inexpensive, and give you far more versatility.

 

Also, don't forget the mission objectives. One of the primary things that makes Green Tide work is that they have a massive pile of scoring models. If even one Ork Boy ducks on an objective at endgame, he's just scored. Being able to thin out and crush Ork Mobs (whether through low model Morale checks or purely killing them to the last Boy) can often be considered secondary to simply having a model stand on the objective to contest. In that respect, timing is once again an important factor. You have to engage Orks on your terms; don't let them outflank (the strategic term, not the special rule) and try to deny their charge at every opportunity.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Multicharge, Multicharge, Multicharge.

Have both of your assault squads charge the same 3 mobs at once. You'll win combat, and the wound gap means the rest will die to No Retreat!

 

As for how my games have gone...20 Berzerkers can easily kill 2 Warbosses, a squad of Meganobz, and about 70 orks if they get good charges.

[Grey Mage]

My army has (by virtue of my love for melee and jump troops) a penchant for assaults; two jump squads (each with flamers) and a vanguard form the center piece. I have two tac squads, a terminator squad, snipers, two dreadnoughts (MM and AC dreads), and a single tank (a whirlwind). At 1750 pts, I can take *almost* all of that with me...and that leaves me to deal with roughly 180+ orks if it's a Tide. Here is my fear:

 

My assault troops, if they do get the charge (hoping Orks don't go Waaagh or get the drop on me), get two flamers (avg 2-3 wounds ea. to be generous) and bonus attacks = 2 PF attacks + 16 attacks. This is at best equal to the unit of boyz...possibly half the unit of boyz if it's a full 30 ork unit. If the orks get the charge, that is a LOT of dice hitting the table. As their WS and Toughness are equal to mine, I see this going poorly for me. I'd rather change tactics then my force composition (it's a fluff thing)...so I'm not sure what to do.

 

That said, I haven't yet faced a Tide. But it is on mind. How have your battles with Green Tides gone?

*blink* How are you getting 2 PF attacks and sixteen other attacks?

 

2 Flamers gets you 4 attacks... four regulars gets you the 12.... and the seargent gets you three powerfist attacks. You run a seven man squad and shorting yourself?

 

In any case youll do fine with that- remember your bolt pistol shots, thats a potetential five wounds you dont want to waste. Then assuming your still in charge range after casualties just charge right in, and Ill let you in on a secret. Orks are WS 4 and T 4, wich means those 16 attacks do an average of 4 wounds, the powerfist well say rounding up does 2 wounds. Assuming after shooting and movement the ork squad started at 20 models strong, down from 30 *16 hits from flamers, 3 from bolt pistols, is about 10 dead with no saves on average*.

 

So now we have 14 orks- one of wich is likely still the nob. So 13x3=39- half of wich hit giving us 19 hits and 6 wounds *remember str 3 sucks*. The powerfist goes, giving us a likely one hit and wound ignoring armor, so after all saves etc your looking at 3 dead marines- Ill assume two flamers and a bolter boy. The orks take three saves for losing combat and three more go down- leaving us with 11 orks to kill.

 

Next round- 3 regulars get six attacks, three hits, lets round up saying two wounds, but assume they finally save one. The orks retaliate with 27 attacks, 14 hits, and 5 wounds- of wich youll likely save 3-4, lets say four so you lose one marine. Your powerfist goes killing another ork, the powerclaw kills another marine- so we have a drawn combat. Orks are no longer fearless, your down to three marines.

 

Blah blah blah- long story short youll lose by attrition at this rate. Get a bigger squad- the addition of three extra guys means 9 attacks and a probable four additional dead orks- or 2 fewer saves youll have to make in the initial round of combat and better results in every round after that.

 

THE POINT: A full 10 man assault squad has nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, to fear from an ork mob of 30 as it charges in. Just make sure you get that 18" charge off and youll be fine. A seven man squad is more fragile and will struggle, but lays even odds with a full boyz mob.

[Thor{DoH}]

As primarily an Ork player, Marines being my third army, I can agree with what the above people are saying. Orks are one of those armies that are intimidating to look at and watch deploy. Really, intimidation is an Ork player strategy so don't play into it.

 

As others have said, get the charge on them and you'll be very surprised how you do. As Gray Mage pointed out, without the charge Orks are only a sad S3 and are all swinging after you. Even in a worst case scenario where you get charged, it'll hurt but if you wither through the charge then there's hope, assuming you were thinning them down before they charged you and you aren't being hit by 30 Boyz.

 

Anyway, as an Ork player I love thinking about how many dice I'll be rolling if I get 30 Slugga Boyz charging into assault (120 - 121 w/Nob depending on weapon), however the reality of it is that it never happens. Even my Boyz who ride is Trukks for "safety", or even a Battlewagon, rarely manage to disembark of their own accord and charge in at full strength. So, don't worry about the potential amount of dice the Ork player will be rolling.

[waaanial00]

To be honest you are more likely to run into 3 more scary lists than the green tide:

 

Battlewagon lists backed up by Lootas - Will likely out shoot you at range, out shoot you up close then out fight you in CC

Deff wing lists - All Mega Nobs in Battle wagons who will out class your armour save and out power fist you. Very expensive to buy and goes down well to power weapons

Nob Biker Lists - Easy to counter if you have 2 level terrain. If you do not then good bye <_<

 

As an Ork player myself I can tell you that green tide lists are my absolute nightmare build to aspire to. All that painting and hassle setting up, then moving then removing when they get shot. Nuts to that lets get some transports and get at you faster.

 

At least with Green Tide you can afford to sit back and shoot up their list, keep your assault marines back for counter assaults and make them bunch up. Deploy objectives in no mans land so that you do not have to abandon them after you have broken the back of the orkish charge. Make them bunch up. Use any and all transports to control the flow of the orks and create moveable firing lanes.

 

If you have a decent choke point in the terrain then have your Vanguard charge an Ork unit when it reaches it. If you win then it will suck more units in to counter yours therefore making the choke point worse and movement much more difficult.

 

Remember to use your speed as an advantage. Dont engage in useless assaults unless you have to. Trigger an early Waaagh move and the orkish hoard will slow down significantly and become more predictable. Concentrate fire on one unit at a time until they break. Dont spread fire and hope to reduce their numbers. Plan to be charged and deploy as neccessary, make sure that if one of your shooty elements gets charged that it does not block line of sight for the rest of your guys.

 

Read Brother Tauls tactica on Reaction and control. It is very good and will serve you well in forming Internal Detatchments.

 

Hope some of these tips serve you well. The ork is harder when he is charging but you are more survivable and can win so dont freak out when he/she deploys 100+ Orks, after turn 1 there are likely to be at least 20 of them on the dead pile.

 

Wan

[Hellios]

I would fear nobs and lootas more than I would fear boyz ^^ Boyz die well enough the mistake is shooting good weapons at them. I remember in part of a bigger battle (with multiple people) the eldar player had his units stuck (transports down) but rather than running and swopping positions over (while his short range units where out of range) he stood and waited for the orks and chaos marines. Which ened up with him fireing Dire avengers at CSMs and Fire dragons at Orks (when it could have easily been the other way round), so yer just point small and if possible short range fire at them. Keep more powerful guns with longer range to kill more troublesome units.

[thade]

*blink* How are you getting 2 PF attacks and sixteen other attacks?

 

Each of my two assault squads is capped at ten marines; both squads have the same wargear selections. The veteran serg gets 2 attacks as a vet, and is wielding a PF (2 PF attacks). Two flamer guys don't get bonus attacks for an offhand weapon, so they each provide one attack (2 more attacks there). That leaves seven vanilla troops with chainsword/bolt pistols, each of which gets a single attack plus a bonus off-hand attack (14 more attacks) for a total of 18 dice if I don't get the charge. If I do get the charge, every man in the squad gets another swing: 28 dice.

 

In my OP I seperated out the PF attacks and clumped the flamer melee attacks in with the vanilla melee attacks...2 PF attacks + 16 melee attacks, when I don't get the charge.

 

I'm no longer worried about the Green Tide; I'm looking forward to taking a shot at them. =) Which I will get, because - to ensure that my unwilling-to-buy friends would play with me - I am collecting a second army...said Green Tide. Ebay + unwanted AoBR orks and the occasional boyz box has gotten me to 60 boyz over the past several months. It's a slow process, but since I insist on having them all fully painted before fielding them, it's an okay pace. =)

 

Bezerkers are actually another concern of mine, but that's for another thread. =)

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

You should be charging with your assault squad...12" move...

 

3 PF and 25 regular attacks.

6.46 dead Orks.

Not that great...

Switch to assault terms, maybe?

[Koremu]

You should be charging with your assault squad...12" move...

 

3 PF and 25 regular attacks.

6.46 dead Orks.

Not that great...

Switch to assault terms, maybe?

 

As I've noted before on this board, Assault Marines are actually better at shooting than they are at close combat. 8 Bolt Pistols will average 2.66 dead Orks, and against a densely packed Ork mob would could quite easily get 6 hits per Flamer, resulting in 6 dead Orks. More Flamer hits is entirely conceivable.

 

So you are looking at 8 kills from shooting as a conservative estimate.

 

How many can Assault Terminators kill with shooting again?

 

EDIT: Also;

 

5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS = 15 attacks on the charge = 7.5 hits = 6.25 kills

 

Not such a great idea anyhow

[Grey Mage]

Exactly! The only place you want TDA going up against orks is to fight Nobz Units, where the stormshields will help keep them alive a bit longer.

 

This is one of the few times I agree that you require a landraider to be truly effective with them- otherwise nob bikers and trukk mounted units will just move away to softer targets.

[Hackbar]

You should be charging with your assault squad...12" move...

 

3 PF and 25 regular attacks.

6.46 dead Orks.

Not that great...

Switch to assault terms, maybe?

 

As I've noted before on this board, Assault Marines are actually better at shooting than they are at close combat. 8 Bolt Pistols will average 2.66 dead Orks, and against a densely packed Ork mob would could quite easily get 6 hits per Flamer, resulting in 6 dead Orks. More Flamer hits is entirely conceivable.

 

So you are looking at 8 kills from shooting as a conservative estimate.

 

How many can Assault Terminators kill with shooting again?

 

EDIT: Also;

 

5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS = 15 attacks on the charge = 7.5 hits = 6.25 kills

 

Not such a great idea anyhow

 

And if you get lucky and roll boxcars, well, the assault marines could nearly wipe a 30-man mob without even considering shooting. The termies, even with the best possible rolling, can only kill 15 on the charge, and 10 more the round after. (which would mean the best of luck 2 rounds in a row)

That's 2 rounds of combat to do what assault marines could do in a round of shooting and 1 round of combat. I know it's bad to plan for the best case scenario, but these are dice we're talkng about. The average kills per turn slightly favors the assault marines, the worst case (zero kills and your squad dies) is identical for both units, and the best case scenario is more than twice as many kills for the assault squad. (if we include shooting)

 

On top of that, the assault squad can hide behind terrain, then use its long move to jump over terrain, shoot, and then assault. Termies are individually more durable, but they can't really do anything but ride in a land raider or march across the board until they get within bashing range. Considering my luck with armor and especially invul saves, I'd go for for the squad that has more wounds to spare, better mobility, (without paying 250 for a transport!) and strikes at Initiative. (which against orks especially is big!)

 

...and that turned into a rant faster than expected.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

two squads of assault marines can soar up and over to deliver the emperors fury to those green skins with a little Astartes class strategy. lets see here.

 

Assauming you are in the given ranges

 

Two full squads of Assault marines, 2x Flamer+PF each.

 

2x30 lad boy mobz (PK)

 

The Lad squads are close together, you fly your AM squads in front of them (within 3") and unload.

 

4x flamers (5 hits each)=5 dead from each squad, then another 2.5 from bolt pistols. (7-8 dead from each squad)

 

you multi-charge one AM squad to both boy squads, and the other to only one boy squad.

 

you direct 44 attacks at the squad engaged with both AM squads and 6 at the other.

 

37*1/2=19.5*1/2=9.75*1/6=8.5 dead

9*1/2=4.5*1/2=2.25*5/6= 1.8 dead

 

 

they get (21*3+11*3=102) attacks back

102*1/2=51*1/3=17 wounds. 17 wounds*1/3=5.66 dead AM's

 

PF attacks (One for each squad)

6*1/2=3 hits 3*5/6=2.5 dead.

 

PK attacks

6*1/2=3*5/6=2.5 dead.

 

First turn

AM's=28.5 kills

Ladz=8.5 kills

 

you won combat by 20

he has to take 20 fearless saves

17 more Orks die

 

You know have 12 AM's against 16 boyz

next round

20*1/2*1/2=5

 

Boyz

12*3=36*1/2*1/3=6*1/3=2 dead AM's.

 

PF's

4*1/2*5/6=1.8 dead.

 

PK's

6*1/2*5/6=2.5 dead AM's

 

2nd round

AM's=7 kills

Ladz=5 dead

 

Won combat by 2, he takes LD 5 on both/one squad and more than likely fails, giving you a chance to sweep with each squad.

 

which leaves you the victor with 7 AM's left.

 

A bittersweet struggle that will look much better on paper, I have horrid luck with AM's. But may give them another shot. Be sure to play smart and use his mob rule against him, leave more than 10 bodies in each squad if possible.

[Grey Mage]

Hey dont forget the utter terror that a Chaplain with jumppack can add to a squad, maybe with a combi-melta to pop those pesky trukks.

[Spacefrisian]

you might wanna keep in mind that if a guy uses Orks without transport and places them in such fashion that they benefit from each other in the form of a cover save. They'll be hindering their own movement. Orks can't move through their own buddies.

 

Make use of this fact, and moving around them gets easier.

[Skoby]

I've got a few tips since I also have an ork army. Make sure you are wary of orks in trukks (or any opentopped ork vehicles), with a red paint job the trukk can move 13", orks disembark within 2" then charge 6" giving them an effective 21" charge range, this can easily catch people offguard and if a waagh is called then the squad gets a charge range of 22-27".

 

Also considering this can be used with Nobz or even Meganobz then suddenly your assault squads don't have the upperhand with mobility (although meganobz must take a difficult terrain test assaulting) Bearing in mind that meganobz in a battlewagon will start being cheaper than bikernobz after 5 members, maybe lower depending on how much you gear them up. I've only seen this done by one guy who had 10 meganobz in a battlewagon and pulled off a first turn charge in Dawn of War. Whether its boyz, nobz or meganobz in their transports, it is fairly easy to ruin their day by concentrating light vehicle fire on them, especially with the ramshackle rule, but don't forget just how mobile they can actually be.

 

Looking at what you usually run, your MM dread may be a poor choice depending on his list, whilst it will easily pop any Ork vehicle it has to get within charge range to do so and powerklaws on the charge are str 9. Your other AC dread will be great for transports and any orks with 'eavy armour. I am not experienced with vanguard but if you pick your fights they will perform very well, just try to avoid them taking too many hits, combined charges are probably your best bet. As has already been said assault marines shooting is suprisingly effective, in a recent game my 5 man assault squad's shooting caused a leadership test on a small ork squad, who then ran away and failed to rally when charged, remember to pick your fights, weaken the target first and when possible charge with multiple squads. Your tactical squads can be great, their rapid fire can cause heavy damage on orks and can hold their own against small ork mobs in combat. Terminators will probably take a lot of armour saves, but asides from Powerklaws they can take a lot of it, assuming they are shooty terminators then they can do a lot of damage and should draw fire away from more fragile units, especially your vanguard. Now finally we come to your snipers and whirlwind, any mobs with less than 10 members should be terrified of these, a single wound from either (and let's face it a wound from a whirlwind is almost garenteed) will cause a pinning test and even if the mob passes one, if a seperate unit causes another pinning wound then they have to take a second test, even if the Nob has a bosspole they are still free wounds. If you have tellion then this is where he shines, taking out powerklaws especially around your dreads will earn his points back in no time.

[waaanial00]

First off Skoby I am not denying what you are saying, hidden power klaws are a menace and need to be factored in when you decide what to do with your dread.

 

However I also have an Ork army and face them quite regularly and to be honest I think the hype surrounding hidden power fists and klaws and their affects on Dreadnoughts is a little blown out of proportion. I have had and seen battles where Dreadnoughts hold up a unit of Boys for almost entire games whilst they valiantly exchange blows that amount to nothing. Take last nights game for example I got charged by a mob of about 13 or 14 orks with a hidden power klaw and after about 6 combat turns the net result was about 4 dead orks and 1 CCW less dread still slugging it out.

 

I say this because with the Vehicle damage chart it is never a foregone conclusion that your dread will die if you charge into a unit with a hidden power klaw. Just dont expect the dread to achieve very much other than tarpitting the mob.

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Wich is why my Dreads always get a heavy flamer if its humany possible to corporate it into the list. Ive gotten alot of "OMG WHAT?" from people when a HF is attached to a TLLC dread, but frankly I just think the ability to properly deal with a horde-o-somethin is just to invaluable.

[Ryjak]

I've got a few tips since I also have an ork army. Make sure you are wary of orks in trukks (or any opentopped ork vehicles), with a red paint job the trukk can move 13", orks disembark within 2" then charge 6" giving them an effective 21" charge range, this can easily catch people offguard and if a waagh is called then the squad gets a charge range of 22-27".

 

This caught me completely off-guard the last time I played Orks, resulting in my Assault Squad getting chopped up. The Vehicle Damage rules, the various Ork Rules for Trukks, the Kustom Force Field projected from a Battlewagon's Hull, and Ghazkul Thrakkah's special Waagh! rule all combine to create a force that is very resistant to shooting, and can deliver all of it's combat potential where the Ork player wants, when he wants it.

 

The only plus side is that Orks have a tough time against vehicles in general, so if you can encourage Orks to waste their power against Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders, or even Terminators, you might come out ok in the end.

[Brother Cortez]

I play orks and some other boyz at the GW play orks...

 

beakies are tough...that and they go first even on the charge...which is the orky downfall...

 

I'd say...since you got the jump packs...manuever...make them come to you, WHICH they will...get them to bottle neck and try to jump pack behind them or on their flanks...than slam into them...hopefully the nob with power klaw is in front, once they group up to defend the attack the nob is stuck in back saving your beakies from the str 8 no armor save attacks...letting you whittle your way down and start forcing them to make fearless wounds.

Orks are rough...I know...11 boyz and a warboss out a truck...basically lets me kill 2 sqauds if not 3 by themselves...so once locked in combat, try and ram another assault sqaud into them in the other flank, whittle them down with fire from a distance first and once both sqauds hit home they should be so low in boyz its not gunna matter at that point.

Low armor is their downfall...baal pred them to death...fall back a bit and than counter attack...also...drop pod a dred with heavy flamer...that will melt a lot...keep in reserves until maybe turn 2-3 drop it mid...flame em' up, distract them...manuever, tare em' up. even a normal term sqaud with heavy flamer, assault cannon duo...deepstrike on their back line and alamo them...its harder for orks to fight when they gotta split their attack direction...its a wave, its hard to stand up to a wave, but when you become a bigger wave, it swallows the old one up ;)

 

GL

[Sgt.Larsen]

The ironclad is a good option to take against the mobs he can tie them up weather the attacks to keep them there.

[greatcrusade08]

I laugh when i see that much math go into a unit choice... Mathammer doesnt work like people think it does.. its an indicator not a glimpse of the future..

Ive had dice rolls that have made me laugh and equally as often made me cry..

 

Experience is the best tool when determining unit choices, a 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers is a pretty good choice for tackling a 30 man mob... they may not all be going home, but if it means more time for your shooty units to garner kills then they have not died in vain.

 

Gc08