Malus the Destroyer Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 In C:SM it lists it as with the techmarines statline. Also states he can go off and get his techmarine thing on if the TFC is destroyed. I..don't see an armor value or anything else denoting the TFC can be targetted seperate or even destroyed thus far. It appears like the tech marine can get whacked, and the cannon sits there shooting. Is it's movement the same as the TM, since they are a squad? And can he fire his own weaponry as well as the TFC? And lastly, this is more a "can we get away with this" question. Can that Techmarine with the TFC take Servitors? Annnnnnnnnnnd can he be upgraded to a "MotF" operating the TFC? TFC, with MotF BS, a few H.Bolter servitors, and the Conversion Beamer for the win! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I thought the same thing until a mate pointed it out for me :( the TFC is an artillery piece which comes with AV10 all round and is destroyed as soon as its hit (glance or pen) And no, you unfortuantely can not take a MotF or Servitors with the TFC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malus the Destroyer Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Do you have the page # for the armor rating on it? And if it comes with a techmarine, is there anything saying you "can't" take the servitors with him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 The armor rating is in the rulebook not the codex, dont kno the page but its under artillery. And I was never sure on the servitors, thats more of a house-rules thing i'd say! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malus the Destroyer Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Thanx, I appreciate it! Can the TM shoot his personal weapons as well as the TF cannon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil Dog Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I don't think so, you'll have to check the BRB, I lost mine lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malus the Destroyer Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'm gonna see if I can talk my troup into letting me upgrade the TM to MotF for the point difference in TM-MotF for our house games. He's the one that talked me into buying it over the Ironclad Dreadnought anyways, and the guys are pretty cool with me upgrading the 4th ED DA and BT codices to 5th ED within discussable reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Ok here are the rules as I understand them (without page numbers until I get back home and have time enought to find them) Thunderfire cannon is an artillery piece with a single gunner, techmarine. It therefore follows the Artillery rules as written in the rulebook. From the top of my head these are that they: ++EDIT++ See page 55 of the main rulebook. All the above rules are covered in the main rulebook. This at the moment answers your question of whether the Techmarine can fire his weapons - thats a NO if you want a summary. Now that these generic questions are out of the way lets get to the special considerations and problems with the TFC. What happens when the TFC dies? You get a free roaming IC Techmarine with a Servo Harness. Exactly as described in the Elites section of the Codex. This ruling contradicts the 6th point above because it is written in our codex. At this point the Techmarine is free to join units and the like and has the blessing of the Omnissiah rule which allows him to fix vehicles. For me this is the best result! However if you are playing in Annihilation games one of your units has died and created a separate one. Do we get a kill point for the TFC and then one for the Techmarine or do we not get a kill point until both are dead? I really wish GW would answer this question because it is frequently asked on this forum enough! Can a techmarine have a unit of servators No and I say no through the following rules explanation. Your techmarine is not an independent character until the TFC is dead. Your servitors cannot join an artillery unit Therefore you cannot ever have a situation where by your Techmarine from the TFC is joining Servitors until the TFC is dead. Even if you could, which you cant and I would be interested in hearing how, you would still not be able to allocate wounds to them because they are not crew as defined in the rulebook and the rules only deal with allocating wounds to Crew. Not the unit the Crew is in. Hope I have helped Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twin .44 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 wait whoa whoa whoa Waanial, one issue there. if the gun gets destroyed and not the marine, the Techmarine doesn't die. In the Codex: Space Marines it says that "if the gun is destroyed, the techmarine gains these Special Rules:" Of course, i may be mistaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 wait whoa whoa whoa Waanial, one issue there. if the gun gets destroyed and not the marine, the Techmarine doesn't die. In the Codex: Space Marines it says that "if the gun is destroyed, the techmarine gains these Special Rules:" Of course, i may be mistaken. What happens when the TFC dies? You get a free roaming IC Techmarine with a Servo Harness. Exactly as described in the Elites section of the Codex. This ruling contradicts the 6th point above because it is written in our codex. At this point the Techmarine is free to join units and the like and has the blessing of the Omnissiah rule which allows him to fix vehicles. For me this is the best result! I did already say this. But maybe it was not clear. When I said the TFC dies I did actually mean the Artillery piece getting penetrated or glanced, therefore leaving the techmarine unharmed. This is in clear contravention to the main rules but that is ok because it is a special rule for the Thunder Fire Cannon alone. Dont worry Twin .44 I am not suggesting that when the gun goes you have no Techmarine, my argument about him not being an IC until this happens would be pointless if I was. If the gun dies so does the crew, if the crew dies the gun is removed (special rules on this for TFC though) Just in case people miss it a second time :P Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2089960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nicolas Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Well someone did point out that it could be counted as two kill points, never thought about this. Now for the servitors the proir stated reason is incorrect... With the new S. unit they are seperate at all times unless you chose to have the tech join them. On the point of if the TFC can include a S. unit those at the shop have said no, reason is that under the servitor description is that you can have one servitor unit for each techmarine or master of the forge in your army.. saddly the TFC doesnt say techmarine and thunderfire cannon it says thunderfire cannon, ya its crewed by a techmarine but its not in its "title" for lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2090567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Well someone did point out that it could be counted as two kill points, never thought about this. How can it? The Thunderfire and Techmarine form a single unit. You have to eliminate both before you get any kill points. As far as Servitors go - I can see the wording going either way, but (fortunately) a single unit of Servitors (eihter way) isn't going to be a game-breaker. I won't worry about that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2090676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nicolas Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 IC are counted as a seperate kill point than the squad they join. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2094642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Its one of those strange situations that the TFC and techmarine can be worth either one or two kill points. If the techmarine is killed first, your opponent will ahve to kill the gun to get the point because as Bannus rightly says they are a single unit.. But if the cannon gets destroyed the techamrine gains the IC special rule (note this is a TFC only rule as far as i know) and therefore is worth a kill point on his own, so 1 for the cannon and then a secodn for the IC techmarine. GC08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2094670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 What's with the stuff about taking Servitors? You purchase the Thunderfire cannon which comes with a single Techmarine as crew, however the unit entry specifically says what the Techmarine is armed with (Artificer Armor, Bolt Pistol, Frags and Kraks and a Servo-harness) and gives you 0 options for upgrading or changing him, nor does it say to use the upgrades listed in the Techmarine entry. All it says is you use the special rules from the Techmarine entry but you cannot make him a Master of the Forge nor can you give him a servitor body guard. Pretty straight forward I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2094672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 The Techmarine and Artillery gun are worth 1 Kill point total. It is one unit of Artillery, regardless of whether one or more of the gunners are also independent Characters. Note that "Independent Character" is a special rule, not a unit type. There are infantry independent characters, bike independent characters, jump infantry independent characters and so on. This particular inependent character happens to be artillery. You would have to kill both the Techmarine and the thunderfire cannon to get 1 kill point. Destroying only the gun does not give a point at all, as the gun alone is not a complete artillery unit. You have to kill the gun and the gunner to get the points for the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2094844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 The Techmarine and Artillery gun are worth 1 Kill point total. It is one unit of Artillery, regardless of whether one or more of the gunners are also independent Characters. Note that "Independent Character" is a special rule, not a unit type. There are infantry independent characters, bike independent characters, jump infantry independent characters and so on. This particular inependent character happens to be artillery. You would have to kill both the Techmarine and the thunderfire cannon to get 1 kill point. Destroying only the gun does not give a point at all, as the gun alone is not a complete artillery unit. You have to kill the gun and the gunner to get the points for the unit. Bingo! - so you see, it can only be one kill point no matter what. Kill him as an IC after the gun is destroyed - 1 kill point. Kill him first and the gun gets removed - 1 kill point. Claiming you can get 2 kill points (one for the gun and the other for the Techmarine) falls outside of the scope of how units are "counted" for kill point purposes. You purchase the Thunderfire cannon which comes with a single Techmarine as crew, however the unit entry specifically says what the Techmarine is armed with (Artificer Armor, Bolt Pistol, Frags and Kraks and a Servo-harness) and gives you 0 options for upgrading or changing him, nor does it say to use the upgrades listed in the Techmarine entry. All it says is you use the special rules from the Techmarine entry but you cannot make him a Master of the Forge nor can you give him a servitor body guard. Pretty straight forward I think. But the Servitors are not an "upgrade" - just like a Command Squad or Honor Guard are not an "upgrade", Servitors are a unit that doesn't take up any FOC slots. Eligability is based on what other units are already in the army - just like the other units I mentioned. The only "gray" area is if a "Techmarine Gunner" actually counts as a "Techmarine". If he does - great, he can take Servitors. If he doesn't - great, he can't take Servitors. That is why I said I wouldn't worry about it. Servitors are a very limited unit with a minimal impact on the tabletop vs. their points. If my opponent wants to take them or allows me to take them - cool. If not, I'm fine with that two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2095342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuzzbopper Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Wasn't this FAQ'ed? Page 138, Servitors. The first line should be changed at reprint to: You may include one unit of Servitors for every Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army. These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...inesFAQ_Jan2009 Since the techmarine gunner is still a techmarine, I would think it would be okay for them to take servitors... of course, they can't join the servitors until the cannon is destroyed and the gunner becomes an IC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2095497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 1) You can take one unit of Servitors for each Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army. 2) The gunner of a Thunderfire Cannon is a Techmarine, as clearly stated in the unit entry. 3) You can take one unit of Servitors for each Thunderfire Cannon. To argue that you can't take the servitors, you'd have to argue that the Techmarine in the Thunderfire Cannon entry isn't a Techmarine. Or that when it says Techmarine in the Servitors entry, it doesn't mean Techmarine. Both arguments can conceivably be made, but with great difficulty and IMO not without stooping to the most picky of rules lawyering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2095882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 To argue that you can't take the servitors, you'd have to argue that the Techmarine in the Thunderfire Cannon entry isn't a Techmarine... But he is a "Techmarine Gunner", not a "Techmarine" - at least that could be argued. Like I said, the wording is just iffy enough that it can be justified either way. Fortunately, a unit of Servitors isn't a "make it or break it" unit for a Space Marine army. I'm OK with my opponent either way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2096173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nicolas Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I would have to disagree with you Legatus.. Here is from the GW FAQ. Q. How many kill points is an Imperial Guard Command Squad worth? Is a Junior Officer and his four Guardsmen worth 1 point or 2? A. A Command Squad is an independent character and his retinue, as defined on page 48 of the rulebook. The rulebook clearly states on page 91 that a character and his retinue are worth 1 kill point each. Therefore the enemy gains 1 kill point for killing the Junior Officer, and 1 kill point for killing the accompanying Guardsmen. What would give the Techmarine a special case since he does become an IC when "his gun" is destroyed. On the point about if you kill him first he dosent count I would have to say incorrect becuase there are several characters that when joined in a unit they lose there IC status but still count as a seperate IC for kill points (listed FAQ as example). One more point that GW needs to clarify. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2096515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoby Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 From page 55 of the rule book: "Artillery units consist of a number of crewman models and the gun models themselves." Page 91 under Annihilation (victory conditions) "At the end of the game, each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed" So for the thunderfire, the unit is the techmarine gunner and the thunderfire cannon. The player recieves 1 kill point if a unit is completely destroyed. Since they techmarine gunner is listed in the same entry in the codex and it clearly says "unit composition: 1 techmarine gunner, 1 thunderfire cannon" anyone claiming that it should be 2 kill points are clutching at straws to try to gain an upperhand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2096678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 What would give the Techmarine a special case since he does become an IC when "his gun" is destroyed. The difference is that with a Retinue + IC you have an Independent Character model and a distinct retinue Unit, which can be killed off independently for the IC, or the IC can be killed off independently from the other models. That is not true with the Thuderfire Cannon artillery unit. The Techmarine is an essential part of the artillery unit as the sole gunner, whithout whom the gun cannot exist. An artillery unit consists of at least 1 gunner and a number of artillery guns. If only the gun is destroyed, the gunner still lives, and the opponent does not get a kill point for teh artillery unit. If the gunner is killed, the artillery gun cannot operate on its own, and it is removed as a caualty as well. It is not possible to separate the IC from the artillery unit, as can be done with an IC and his retinue, and it is not possible to destroy independently either the IC or the artillery unit. Both the Techmarine and the Gun have to be destroyed in order for the artillery unit counting as being destroyed and for the Techmarine counting as killed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2096900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 But with the old retinue rules they were essentially one unit except if the retinue was killed he could act like a normal IC. However the new Guard codex has resolved this issue regarding for example platoons and how they give KP's. I agree with you BTW.... Anyway I agree with the if you kill the cannon you haven't killed the techmarine and so can't claim a KP for that unit (until the techmarine is dead) line of thought. The issue of 1 unit being worth more than 1 KP comes from codexs that haven't been updated for the new rules.... Guard commanders in mandatorycommand squads are no longer IC's so not including people who have chosen to join a command squad... Other races marines and eldar don't have retinues as such but have special units unlocked that take up no FOC but otherwise act independantly of the commander & orks have no such unit at all. The servitor is a harder question and RAI I don't know but RAW I think I would lean on the side of yes you can. Now I want to see an army with 3 thunderfires, 3 techmarines and 2 MoFs with maxed out servitors!!!!!!!... AM? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2096995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 But he is a "Techmarine Gunner", not a "Techmarine" - at least that could be argued. Except that he's listed as only "Techmarine" in his statline. So there is something concrete you can point to in the codex which states that the gunner is also a Techmarine, which is the only criterion needed to take a servitor unit. I agree that it can be argued... it's being argued right now of course ;) But I think there's really only one possible conclusion. Now I want to see an army with 3 thunderfires, 3 techmarines and 2 MoFs with maxed out servitors!!!!!!!... AM? I want to see that too, that would be fun :) Throw in some dreadnoughts and a few Scout Squads (to represent skitarii and make the list legal), and we've got a very flavorful list going. With possibly more power fist equivalents, by the way, than a Deathwing list... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/176781-thunderfire-cannon/#findComment-2100544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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