Giga Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Okay, the stealth USR says the following: "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1." - page 76 of the 5th ed rulebook Telion has stealth. The rule doesn't say "all of the MODEL's cover saves are improved by +1", and Telion is by default an upgrade character on a unit. So does having telion in a unit of scouts means the entire unit gets the +1 cover bonus from being in cover/in area terrain? Does this means that a unit of scouts with camo cloaks and telion gets an automatic 2+ cover save? Cause if that's how it works, then Telion is REALLY worth it... But the rules are murky. Otherwise, what's the point of telion having stealth, if he doesn't confer the ability to the scout squad he's bought as an upgrade for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-i Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 im pretty sure tel's stealth is their so that he isnt left out of stealth when the rest of the squad has cloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 To be honest I think the rule was written assuming that the entire squad would have the Stealth USR. With only Telion having it and the rest not I am not sure it is conferred to the rest of the unit. It is definitely not lost but I dont think that the rest of the squad gets it. You can still claim the 2+ cover save on all shots directed at Telion, therefore ensuring his survival in a long range fire fight is a little more likely. Still I have no RAW arguments so this opinion is likely to stay as that. I think this has been argued to death and will continue to do so until GW realises that they have to answer the real Frequently Asked Questions rather than the ones they have time to write up. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlandMoonGuy Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Searchy is your friend, please check out this thread here. And I totally agree; this topic has in fact been argued to death. -OMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFisty Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 The important factor here is that Telion is not an independent character. The codex specifically says that one scout squad in the army may REPLACE its scout sergeant with sergeant Telion. That means that Telion is part of the scout squad just like any normal scout sergeant. For this reason, Telion grants the entire scout squad the Stealth rule. Furthermore, the codex says that the squad may have camo cloaks at +3 pts. per model. This means that Telion and the whole scout squad may stack both camo cloaks and the stealth rule together, which gives them a 2+ cover save without having to rely on a Techmarine's Bolster Defences rule. If Telion were an independent character then he would count as a unit unto himself and the stealth rule would only apply to his model and not the rest of the unit he might be attached to. I welcome any responses to this, I would love to hear your take on my take. McFisty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 means that Telion and the whole scout squad may stack both camo cloaks and the stealth rule togetherAbsolutely not. Stealth + Stealth =/= Super Stealth. You can only have the same special rule (ie Stealth) once, though that is technically unwritten AFAIK. If a unit somehow gained Furious Charge from two different sources, such as the Death Company being in range of Brother Corbulo's Red Grail, they would not get +2 S and +2 I on the turns they charge, though it'd be pretty sweet! Secondly, "As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence." It is different in Codex: Space Marines, in that a single model in a unit can get it. A single model having an ability does not give the ability to the rest of the unit unless specifically stated, such as with some Exarch powers giving the benefit to the whole unit. Thus, since it's different it takes precedence, leaving a single model within a unit having Stealth. The rest of the squad still has to buy the cloaks to get their own Stealth. Now where's that dead horse? Ah yes...*kick kick* :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakiq Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 The important factor here is that Telion is not an independent character. The codex specifically says that one scout squad in the army may REPLACE its scout sergeant with sergeant Telion. That means that Telion is part of the scout squad just like any normal scout sergeant. For this reason, Telion grants the entire scout squad the Stealth rule. Furthermore, the codex says that the squad may have camo cloaks at +3 pts. per model. This means that Telion and the whole scout squad may stack both camo cloaks and the stealth rule together, which gives them a 2+ cover save without having to rely on a Techmarine's Bolster Defences rule. If Telion were an independent character then he would count as a unit unto himself and the stealth rule would only apply to his model and not the rest of the unit he might be attached to. I welcome any responses to this, I would love to hear your take on my take. McFisty Telion grants stealth as do the Camo Cloaks which means they do not stack as they are the same rule. There is nothing in the stealth rule that would imply that it stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McFisty Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 OK, I stand corrected on the stacking of stealth and camo cloaks. What this means then is that with Telion, the whole squad gains stealth and therefore, does not need the camo cloaks. One would still need the Techmarine's Bolster defences rule to improve the squads cover save to a 2+. I interpret the rules to mean that the whole scout squad gains stealth when you replace the scout sergeant with Telion. McFisty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 How? Telion says he has Stealth, not that he gives his unit Stealth. But yea, you can stack Bolster Defences and Stealth, as they are two seperate rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's because of the B) -poor way the two rules are worded. Stealth says the unit with the rule gains a +1 to Cover Saves, and because Telion is always part of a unit, it's assumed (at least on mine & Mcfisty's part) that because Telion is part of a Scout Squad (which is a unit), the whole package has Stealth. Ya know what, I blame that no-good grox fondler of of git they call Matt Ward. If he had just worded Telion a little better, we wouldn't be having this argument. *grumble grumble grumble* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Remember the biggest, most importantest and probl hardest question in every RPG ever made: Does it stack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Depends on the Source of said bonus. Perhaps if GW implemented different sources of bonuses in Warhammer. "Character Bonus" for things like a Techmarine's Bolster Defenses, "Wargear Bonus" for things like Camo Cloaks, "Terrain Bonus" for hiding in especially good cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Exactly... but the rule thats nearly universal in all rules sets is that if the bonus comes from the same place twice you only get it once. So telion+camo cloaks doesnt = +2 as I see it, no matter wich way you read the stealth rule... having the stealth rule twice just gets applied once. Id say telion just has his own personal cloak though. After all since GW has a thing about giving SCs wargear options I think he just got the special rule, when the proppa thing to have done would be say he has a camo cloak and never have started this mess. That, or theyre waiting to see what direction the players take it and then rule in a couple years when theyve made up their minds. They do that sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Now where's that dead horse? Ah yes...*kick kick* :) Lemme join in *kick kick* Telion DOES NOT grant his rules onto his squad, poor wording aside there are no rules covering upgrade characters in this matter, we cant use IC rules as hes not an IC, but if we look at them Stealth is one of the rules that does not confer when he joins a squad... coincidence.. i think not. So if theres no rule saying he does confer, we cant use them... At the start of the rulebook it mentions a unit can be many things including a single model, now i know for games terms he isnt a single model as he cant be taken without a scout squad, but rules wise he is, as his rules are different to standard scouts. So Telion is a 'unit' and he gets +1 to his cover save.. his squad need cloaks. GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Basically RAW stealth is confered (IMO) RAI could very well be that Telion is the only one who has it... In friendly games come to an agreement in tourneys ask the organizer (or check the even guide) to give a judgement before the games start to get this sorted and if the issues arises you can go the organizers have ruled thus. This falls into my oppinion into the grey areas such as can Chaos dreadnoughts see behind them for firefrenzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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