When is it viable to use 20 man squads of troops?

[minigun762]

Simple question but difficult to answer.

 

20 Bloodletters would be incredibly scary, but I wonder if its too much concentrated killing power (you're going to overkill anything you hit) so it could be held up by armor/roadblock squads

 

20 Daemonettes seems very dangerous, lots of wounds and really fast. Rending in these numbers is very deadly, even against Walkers or MCs.

 

20 PlagueBearers is almost the reverse of Bloodletters. Its SO durable that its overkill (over-live?). Nothing short of 3 Vindicators and 3+ turns of firing is going to remove it in any reasonable timeframe but unless you do something fancy with deploying it (covering multiple objectives) all you're doing is REALLY camping one objective.

 

20 Horrors isn't quite as scary as the others, but because you have some range its easier to use. 60 shots is going to end up killing around 5 MEQs on average, not bad but not amazing either. Against Orks or something, you're going to get much more impressive results.

[Seahawk]

I've only used my Troops in units of 10 so I'd have no idea about 20. However, I do know that if a single walker gets into base contact with those 20 plaguebearers, it will draw them off an objective. Next, since it will be completely surrounded by models, you can't counter charge an MC or something into it to release the PB. It will only kill 1, maybe 2 PB a turn, therefore making it a complete waste of unit that isn't capping (unless you position right) or killing. It is holding up that walker, however...

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Large troop squads seem to me to be a big win/big lose proposition. The biggest benefit of larger units is their resilience. Even after suffering causalities, they are still viable to engage in assaults. Also, big squads are more able to initiate multiple close combats in a single assault – a trick all Daemon players should master.

 

That being said there are also a few limitations to consider.

 

If a 20-man squad suffers a bad scatter a good chunk of your army is stuck slogging its way down table. Not even mentioning the greater potential of a mishap. Multiple, smaller count squads diversifies that risk.

 

A 20-man squad is a ton of models if you just need them to hold an objective.

 

Large groups of models are more susceptible to large blast weaponry. Like Russ squadrons which lay out multiple pie plates & then follow-up with a veritable hail of heavy bolter shots.

 

A 20-man squad can at times be overkill, i.e. vs. a Space Marine combat squad or underpowered as in Seahawks example of being tied up by walkers.

 

So I’m definitely with Seahawk when it comes to basic unit size. My squads range from 8-10 strong, never more or less no matter the size of the game. Perhaps some of the others that run with larger units can comment to where it helps their overall strategy.

 

-OMG

[Corpse.]

In locations where putting two 10's near eachother is a potential for bad scatter-losses, a 20 size unit in the middle will fare better since we dont have to worry about meltaguns or champions with powerfists rather then a single fury with a bloodletter unit or so which isnt that big of a deal.

 

Offbalance armies where you pick large squads for the first half of the armies units to deep strike in, the other half being small units can be very impolite.

 

Thats my summarized conclusion.

[the jeske]

fewer scoring units is bad . one big target vs two smaller ones[but combined same size] bad again . the possibilty of having a big unit tar pited for most or even whole game bad again.

No I dont think they are viable.

[Hellios]

fewer scoring units is bad

 

Flip side... giving up less KP's, not that your wrong. Yes I realise less games use KP's

[Obeisance]

Massive footprint makes it difficult to land.

 

You also need to spend points on troops elsewhere. So what, you're going to take 2x20 Bloodletters and what else? That's pretty much your entire troops allowance. You do have the rest of the army to allocate points to.

 

Also by having huge units, you have less units to divide. Which means you'll suck at threat overload deployment.

[Corpse.]

Most firepower armies will have 2 units firing at 1 since your deploying 50/50 anyways, and having tons of killpoints to do target saturation means easier killpoints and perhaps more mishaps since you will try to leave room for all the units.

 

No good side, and a hard balance.

[Spacefrisian]

20 bloodletters aren't that bad, they are most likely to get a few shots so the large number of bodies ensures that they will do more than enough damage once they get in CC

[the jeske]

what do you mean by a few shots ? maybe if someone plays a list build around tacticals . every good list should be able to kill close 20 meq models per turn [in one squad at least].

[greatcrusade08]

what do you mean by a few shots ? maybe if someone plays a list build around tacticals . every good list should be able to kill close 20 meq models per turn [in one squad at least].

 

This makes no sense... 20 MEQ's a turn??? maybe if your whole army was firing at one unit, but thats never the case... (and even thats doubtful)

 

Gc08

[DuskRaider]

I can see a squad of 20 Bloodletters, mainly because they WILL be shot to pieces on their descent. I've run squads of 15, you either lose very little (awesome dice rolls or a lucky cover save), or you lose a lot. Last game I played, one squad lost 8 out of 15 but still ended up wiping half the board of Tau alone. The other squad of 15 was completely destroyed on the turn it landed. So... large squads aren't always all that bad, depending on the unit. 7 - 10 Plaguebearers is more then enough, though.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I can see a squad of 20 Bloodletters, mainly because they WILL be shot to pieces on their descent...The other squad of 15 was completely destroyed on the turn it landed.

Sorry to respond but I still find it difficult to believe when I read statements like these. I must be close to a 100 games with my Daemons and I’ve never lost an entire unit of infantry to shooting on the turn they Deep Struck. (I have lost Soul Grinders but that’s about it.)

 

I certainly can see how a bad scatter could put you smack into an execution style firing line but that has to be fairly rare. I have lost entire infantry units to Mishaps. Yet, even then results where Mishaps have allowed my opponent to place the models they always put them at the far back end of the table as opposed to within easy shooting range (a better tactic IMHO).

 

Again I have to fall back on prospect that the core number of models per unit is subsequent to how you use them on the table. That begs a much larger tactical conversation about unit interaction; well beyond any aspect concerning the build of a single unit.

 

-OMG

[Corpse.]

You wouldnt mind posting your average deep strike distance from the enemy units in my thread a few threads down from this one would ya OMG?

 

Edit: Thread is Unit balances.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah... unfortunately, my 15-man Bloodletter squad dropped down into 1850 pts of Tau... with that being their only target. Needless to say, losing an entire squad does happen. Especially against a range specialist force like Tau. That and having to rely on 5+ saves isn't reliable.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Ok then, Tau can make a bad day for ANY army in that situation. In that case there is little you can do but the brute force approach may not be the best counter (i.e. adding more daemons to absorb more wounds). In fact, that only allows the enemy to kill more of your models while they have the opportunity.

 

So in this case, a squad of Firewarriors (maybe even backed up with some marker lights) can put out a crippling amount of fire, with only a 5+ save to protect you. But there are other threats like this as well. A big squad of Khorne Berzerkers on the charge can cause as many wounds if not more. In both cases even a 20-man strong squad of daemons could be cleared off the table in one turn.

 

So back to the topic at hand, would you rather lose 10 models or 20 models if caught in such a case?

 

-OMG

[Mutt-Man!]

I would like to add that larger squads does better in larger games. Normally due to that a smaller game the opposition will have fewer units to go against you and maxing out on force org slots will be a strategy in overwhelming the enemy fire choices.

 

Facing a marine player in 1000 points where he has about 6-7 units, you can easily fit 14 units in 1000 for example.

[Excess Nerd]

I actually run two large unit troops in my armies 1000+. I run daemonettes at 20 b/c one there save horrid and low toughness letting everything hit doesnt help. My friends tend to deal abt 12-14 kills to them before they get into CC but those last six make up the points for all 20 of their sisters. The other group I run is a squad of 15 horrors to hold points which tend to have abt 1-3 left sitting on a point at the end of turn 5 games.

[antique_nova]

excuse me for ignoring the rest of the comment, because i don't ahve the time or the effort to read them.

But. How about it they worked as a team?

Twenty plaguebearers as one has said, is very very difficult to kill.

But what if the plaguebearers were used to screen more vulnerable units like the deamonettes or the bloodletters. For that many points they would be worth it. For instance 1000 points to 1500 points

2 units of plague bearers about 10 strong, unit of twenty won't spread out quick enough.

1 unit of 10-12 bloodletters

1 unit of 12 deamonettes

 

You have epidermus and two khorne heralds on the thing makes them really fast and gives the best upgrades.

( that probably is around 1000 points )

 

Then take your DP and army them with what ever you feel is appropriate, but keep them at a low cost. one to two cost and one that costs abit more than the rest or vise versa.

 

Remember these units just help and don't form the main tip of your army.

 

Having a unit of 14 at the most of pink horrors and the changling to sit on objectives as well as providing secondary screening of the other models if your plaguebearers don't cover the first lot.

 

So lets see the summary of the list again:

 

1 epidermus

2 khorne zooming heralds ^^

2 unit of 10 plague bearers

1 unit of 10-12 bloodletters

1 unit of 12 deamonettes

1 unit of 12 pink horrors

3 Daemon Princes with your selected upgrades

 

Lets see how each unit would function in objective based missions.

 

epidermus - stay back and provide back up for the objective sitters.

khorne zooming heralds ^^ - chomp anything fast and maybe contest objectives at the last minute.

plague bearers - sit on back objective and provide screening for the other objective sitters.

plague bearers - sit on middle objective and provide screening for the other objective sitters.

bloodletters - chomp the main line and advance from middle objective, hides behind plaguebearers.

deamonettes - chomp the main line and advance from middle objective, hides behind plaguebearers.

pink horrors - stay back and provide back up for the objective sitters.

Daemon Princes - chomping whatever they like that is big, like tanks, exactly like tanks.

 

Annihilation games

 

epidermus - stay back and provide back up for the sitters.

khorne zooming heralds ^^ - chomp anything fast and Hitting small elite units that have been whittled down

plague bearers - provide screening while advnacing to provide late attacking support

plague bearers - provide screening while advnacing to provide late attacking support

bloodletters - chomp the main line and advance from plague bearers , hides behind plaguebearers.

deamonettes - chomp the main line and advance from plague bearers , hides behind plaguebearers.

pink horrors - stay back and provide back up for anything and protecting epidermus.

Daemon Princes - chomping whatever they like that is big, like tanks, exactly like tanks.

 

hope my fairly detailed chomping helped to see how units could help, and that i think two medium sized squads are better than one big clump.

 

smaller multiple squads have these advantages over the larger ones:

less eggs in one box and multiple boxs are available :P

 

EDIT: I think big squads offer more disadvantages than smaller squads. Because armies only ever succeed because all the elements ( squads big or small ) have co-operated in and played their part as one squad. e.g the one big squad being the army. Each army is made up of individual squads.

 

So in a way, big squads can be useful, but they must co-operate with the rest of the other squads in your army.

As long as the squad works with the list, then it does matter how big it is.

 

thanks

antique_nova

 

thanks

antique_nova