Fenrisian Wolves take one for the team

[Level]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed or why I haven't seen any body using this in the army list section but:

 

A fellow wolf brother that I game with from time to time has discovered that in the description of Fenrisian Wolves at the front of our beloved and soon to be changed codex it states that the wolves can be taken as wounds in place of the special charachter or that charachters squad.

 

What this essentially means is that any of our HQ choices that can take wolves along with them to battle can manipulate the 5th ed wound allocation system so that they can gain an extra wound for each wolf that is alive.

 

so for example: a Battle leader in TDA with a Body Guard in TDA, all with runic charms and hey why not throw in some storm shields for fun.

2+ save that is rerollable, Double ones eventually turn up and hey presto the wolf takes the wound instead of the Marine, gallantly throwing itself into harms way to further infuriate your opponent. Or 3+/5+ invulnerable saves, fail it, no problem the wolf goes down instead.

 

With up to four wolves in a pack, this can seriously extend the durability of what were already pretty much one of the toughest units around.

 

Anyone with a rules hammer please check it out, a couple of people I know have looked at it, and it seems legit (although cheesy as hell).

 

putting a pack like that down and the only thing you really have to worry about in CC is the necron c'tan night bringer. Even Abbadon will get his butt kicked statistically.

 

Happy hunting.

Cheers

Level

[Legatus]

Looking at the 5th Edition rules it does look like that is what the rules state. But the Codex Space Wolves was written for the 3rd Edition rules, which were slightly different in a few of the basic game mechanics.

 

3rd Editon "Remove Casualties" (3rd Ed. BBB, p. 49)

In 3rd Edition, "remove Casualties" was the 5th step of shooting (1. chose target, 2. check range, 3. roll to hit, 4. roll to wound, 5. remove casualties) and it included everything that came after rollong to wound. So it included allocating wounds and taking saves in addition to actually removing models.

 

5th Edition "Remove Casualties" (5th Ed. BRB, p. 24)

In 5th Edition the steps 1-4 of the shooting process are basically the same, but the next step then is "Take Saving Throws", which includes allocating wounds and then taking saves. Only then, as the 6th step, comes "remove casualties", and this now only refers to removing those models that have failed their save.

 

So when the rules were written in 3rd Edition, the description that the Wolves are part of the unit they are with (or forming a unit with the Character) and can therefor be removed as casualties in their place simply means that when the unit is shot at you can allocate wounds to the Wolves, who would then take their own saves and upon a failed save would be removed.

Now, in 5th Edition, the description that they can be removed in the characters place does seem to say that after the Character has taken it's saves, you could remove a Wolf for each failed save instead.

 

This is an interresting Case where RAW playis out like you siggested, but we have actual written proof that RAI is something different. We do not have to speculate on what the writers intentions might have been, we can look at the 3rd Edition rules.

[Level]

Sorry Legatus but the next step was always take saving throws. The thing that has changed is the fact that you now have to allocate wounds rather than use the majority armour rules which the codex was originally written with.

 

basically with majority armour you would have to take the saves with the armour value that was in the majority in the pack.If however those saves were failed you would then have to remove models starting with the models with the save that you used.

For example say you had a battle leader and two wolf guard in terminator armour 2+ and 2 wolves with their 6+ save.

orks fire into the pack doing 5 wounds with sluggas. you would then make 5 2+ saves because the terminators are in majority.

Lets say you failed one of these saves, ordinarily you would have had to remove one terminator, however according to the rules on wolves they could have been taken as a casualty instead.

 

Now with 5th ed you have to allocate the wounds before you make any armour saves. so in the same example the 2 terminator wolf guard would have to each take a wound, the battle leader will have to take a wound and the wolves will each have to take a wound. the chances are that the terminator armoured marines will make the save but on a six plus it is unlikely that the wolves will make it. If however the dice gods play up to their usual standards and one bodyguard fails his save and one wolf saves his wound on a six, according to the rules you would still be able to take the wolf as a casualty instead of the terminator.

 

perhaps I am not understanding you properly but how is the intention different in these cases? and what proof are you talking about when you say that the RAI is something different?

 

Although this is a loophole, it is far less potent than it used to be when it was originally created. and there is a definate weakness in that the wolves go down cheaply to weak dakka. in close combat however where the number of wounds per initiative phase is generally spread out and thus less it can be very effective and can see our boys causing some major damage.

[Legatus]

Sorry Legatus but the next step was always take saving throws.

As I was saying, in 3rd Edition the 5th step of the shooting process was titeled "remove casualties", and that step included armour saves, cover saves, multiple wound models and actually removing wounded models. That step is explained on page 49 in the 3rd Edition Rulebook.

 

1. Chose a target.

2. Measure range.

3. Roll to hit.

4. Roll to wound.

5. Remove casualties.

 

In the beginning of that step 5, the rules actually start by explaining how casualties, or models that have suffered a wound, are removed from a unit. Only then do the rules explain that there is the possibility to avert those wounds by passing a save. Basically, the rules are written to by default assume that every successful to-wound roll will remove one enemy model. But then the rules explain what happens if the models happen to have some kind of save.

In practice almost every unit has some kind of save, and especially with Space Marines you would usually have rolled for armour saves immediately after the opponent had rolled for wounds. But that is not how the rules explain the 5th step. For every wound the enemy rolled, you remove one model as a casualty. But you can avert that wound if you pass a save.

 

What that means for Fenrisian Wolves is that when the opponent has rolled a wound, instead of "removing the Character" (allocating a wound to him, making a save, taking off 1 wound on a failed save) you can "remove the Wolf" instead. If the Wolf has a save, he can save against that wound. If the Wolves and the Character had different toughness (because the Character might be on a bike) then you would have allocated the hits before rolling to wound (3rd Ed. BBB, p. 52).

[Level]

Ok, I see where you are coming from.

 

basically you are saying that the wolf would take the wound before the armour saves were made.

If you look however at the rules in the space wolves codex under mixed armour on page 4 you will see where I am coming from.

basically it says that the opposing player rolls to hit and wound as normal but when the armour saves are made the space wolves player uses the save for the armour worn by the majority of the unit and when removing casualties must then remove models first from the ones with the armour value used in the save.

 

This is where the wolves would make their sacrifice, in order to save another model, otherwise how does it make sense?

[Legatus]

Ah, I see. I hadn't noticed that, and was only focusing on the basic rules. So, normally if you allocated wounds to the majority Marines and failed their saves, you would be required to remove them first over the wolves. In combination with the mixed armour rules it does sound odd to simply go by the basic rules.

 

I checked a few older FaQs to see if perhaps they had said anything about this issue. The Chapter Approved 2003 FaQ (p. 84) merley confirms that a Space Wolves Character with Fenrisian Wolves becomes a mixed armour unit. The V4.0 FaQ states that the 2nd Paragraph of the Fenrisian Wolf rules (the one in question) is to be ignored in favour of the stadard mixed armour and mixed toughness rules. The current 5th Edition FaQ from GW's website in turn states to use the rules as written.

 

Gw has at a few times incorporated erratas into new prints of a Codex, at which point they would stop adressing the issue in their FaQs. The last Codex Chaos initially had Obliterators with Toughness 5, but that was changed by the FaQ to T 4(5). The next prints of Codex Chaos included that change, and it was taken out of the FaQ, leaving players with the older prints with incorrect rules and no available FaQ. I wonder if the reason why GW changed the FaQ from "ignore that paragraph" to "se as written" because they changed their mind about it or whether there have been changes made to the newest prints of the Codex Space Wolves?

[Beef]

does this matter any longer as our new codex will be out soon??

[Grey Mage]

Ah, I see. I hadn't noticed that, and was only focusing on the basic rules. So, normally if you allocated wounds to the majority Marines and failed their saves, you would be required to remove them first over the wolves. In combination with the mixed armour rules it does sound odd to simply go by the basic rules.

You were right to do so Legatus- the current SW FAQ specificly states to ignore any mixed armor rules we have and just use those in the core book.

 

The Wolves can be removed as casualties for an HQ that takes them by RAW, AFAIK. My own gaming group has older players in it... so we agreed to go by the 3rd edition process and simply say that if a save were to be placed on the WGBL *as example* you could alocate it to a wolf instead, but the wolf had to use its own save.

[Legatus]

Not that I like denying to be right... but I was originally trying to argue how the rules were written for 3rd Edition, so with that in mind I would have fo figure in the mixed armour rules in the Codex Space Wolves, and how they combine with the Fenrisian Wolf rules.

[JCarter]

But there's no need to go back in history. The wolves "may be removed as casualties in place of." This means that if another figure fails its save, the wolf may be removed instead. Plain English, and it's not as cheesy asw hell. It's essentially the same thing that a hive tyrant gets now with his tyrant guard. I've played it. It's not a game winner. It will almost certainly disappear in October. Until then, have fun with it.

[Grey Mage]

But there's no need to go back in history. The wolves "may be removed as casualties in place of." This means that if another figure fails its save, the wolf may be removed instead. Plain English, and it's not as cheesy asw hell. It's essentially the same thing that a hive tyrant gets now with his tyrant guard. I've played it. It's not a game winner. It will almost certainly disappear in October. Until then, have fun with it.

Going back to 3rd edition does help with rules as intended, wich in some groups *like my own* matters more than it does in others.