Help vs Ork swarm!

[Raulmichile]

I'm currently having a trouble playing against a good ork player with a very solid list:

 

At 1000 points he fields 2X30 sluggas with power fist noble, 2X20 shootas with big shootas and power fist noble, 6-8 lootas and a BigMek with Force Field, 5+inv save for him and burna. The rest is filled with Grots or a Weirdboy, commandos or more shootas. In short: no vehicles of any kind, only loads of boyz (110-120) with cover saves all around with lots of hidden fists. Pure ork swarming.

 

An alternative army is: 3X20 sluggas with power fist noble, 8 lootas, 1 Zapp gun, BigMek with Force Field, 5+inv save for him and burna, Warboss with fist and inv save, and 3 squads of 1 Killa-Kan each. In short, another kind or Ork swarming and target saturation.

 

At 1300 points it is roughly the same plus a 5 man noble unit with Painboy. That is 6 nobles with 4+ armour save, 5+ cover save and 4+FNP save with 2 or 3 power claws. Pure roughness...

 

I have beaten him a couple of times with a combination of situation (mission, deployment, etc)/clever tactics/and very good luck in the first two turns of the game. But I get my butt kicked and handed back to me more often than not because our games end up in: if I have a phenomenal first part of the game I stand a chance; if not, I decants in loads (real loads) of dice rolling and target saturation with me getting the narrow end of the trade.

 

I don't have vindicators nor defilers in my collection, (something that will be solved soon) but in the meantime I want to know how would you defeat such numbers. Normally I win when I manage to make refused flank work, but it is very situational because with running and Waagghh!! my opponent can redeploy rather quickly.

 

These two are very solid and hard lists handed by a competent player who knows what he is doing; so it is not only a "bait him with inexpensive troops" or "target his lone character asap" sort of things. And without pie plates it is a very daunting challenge at least for now.

 

Any advice?

[Zeller]

Take out the boys:

 

Lash sorceror brings one squad at a time into a very dense mob close to a terminator unit of HF and 4 combi flamers. Charge what's left. The squad of orks will die, I garuntee it.

 

Terminators + 10-20 man CSM squad charging a boy squad at a time. If you can, always attack a squad with multiple squads so that he has to roll those fearless saves.

 

I've only fought Orks once with my CSM but the experience held true with my BA as well.

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It sounds like he can pump out a ton of shots at range to force overwhelming saves and then follow up that with the massive boy squads that simply crush what's left. If you can destroy his lootas I suggest taking some armor as a shield wall or to protect your men from the massive number of shots.

 

Perhaps rhinos with combi-flamers and/or havoc launchers to either bombard the enemy or rush up, dump the troops, and burn the nearby orks.

 

If you have any kind of havocs or bikes w/ melta/pf then those should take care of the kans. Of course if he has a grotzuka these become priority number, then lootas, then sluggas. IMO of course.

 

Hope this offers something useful.

[Night Lord Dred]

Honestly, my best bud plays orks and he used to run a list like this, and he stopped because I mopped him up too many times. Now he has trukks and real threats in his list to sync with the boyz. Orks like this can be real easy if you know its coming.

 

The boyz on foot are moving an average of 9.5" a turn, provided there is no difficult terrain. Seeing as how there is 36" between your table edge and his deployment, you have about 3 turns of shooting before he reaches you.

 

This is an odd situation where you dont need meltas, lascannons, or any anti tank fire. Oblits are completely pointless here. If he truly has no mech, I would say spam those heavy bolters. This is the one situation where theyre viable. I personally would bring a cheap havoc squad with autocannons to outshoot those lootas, just incase theyre more than 36" away (which they will be if your opponent is smart).

 

Now after 3 turns of slaughtering orks, theyre pretty weak on all fronts. You can now either use units like zerkers to charge (or raptors to guarantee the charge). You MUST get the charge off on orks. It makes them 100x worse in combat. Zerkers will demolish them in CC.

 

If you truly want to show him how poor his list is, get a few rhinos. When he gets close, hop in the rhinos and drive around him. If you took out the Lootas he only has a few claws hitting on 6s - not going to happen. Even if it does, youre going to get the charge off on your turn anyways. Dont forget to shoot bolt pistols before charging.

 

 

Really, his list can easily be beaten if you design a list around it.

[Hellios]

Basically as the ork saying goes... Choppa the dakka and dakka the choppa.

 

Also he seems to lack any heavy anti-armour - zap gun which in unreliable (and not including close combat) so maybe dakka preds if you have them (although some risk to the lootas).

 

Heavy bolter havocs (autocannons and ML will do)

 

Khorne berzerkers, but with risk you don't want to be fighting two huge units at once and you want to charge if you can maybe into one of the shooty units and a 10 man squad is going to need to kill around 40 orks

 

Flamers and terrain

 

Also I think the force field is a cover save not invunerable (I may be wrong, I know it obscures vehicles (what its best used for IMO)) so flamers will burn him.

 

Kommandos aint to bad as long as snikrot isn't in them, they might just get closer quicker, try and shoot them with a small unit to kill them or just make them run, you'll need to put fire into big choppa boyz units.

 

Lash of submission his huge units away (shooting ones you can't move away) making the units that will hit you weaker (or destroyed) while slowing down the other untis so his comes in bits (The green tides strength is coming in a huge block) Also if you happen to be T6 grots can't hurt you ^^

 

Also note that grots don't use the "mob rule" rule only the runtherds which has no effect because he will have a max of 3 and so will use the LD7 of the runt herds although his squig hound if he takes them allow this to re-rolled for the loss of d3 grots.

 

Nobs are just nobs are they on bikes or do you mean a 5+ inv save? rather than cover? in this case remember the havocs? consider ML because you can frag the boyz and krak the nobz if they are not on bikes meaning they will only get a 5+ inv save if thats what they have.

 

Do you mount your guys in rhinos btw or not?

 

Can you say more about how you play otherwise I can only be general.

[Raulmichile]

I have two Rhinos and a Dakka Pred. I know I lack some armour, I need another Rhino and a Vidicator at least but as I said earlier it will be solved soon.

 

I usually don't tailor my lists apart from minor tweaks like, flamer instead of plasma gun in a squad, ML instead of AC or viceversa and that's all, but I think I will have to build specific lists against him. Another thing I avoid like the plague is Lash socrcerers because I think it is a no-brainer (but I may change).

 

My list at 1000-1100 points is:

 

Sorcerer with Doom bolts

3X5 marine units with plasma gun

5-6 havocs with 3-4 AC

6-7 plague marines with plasma gun and power fist champion with plasma pistol mounted in Rhino

5 scouting chosen with either melta/flamer/champion with fist+combi in Rhino

or 3 termies with combi melta and Reaper+pfist and another Rhino for a marine squad

or 5 infiltrating chosen with AC/ML and Mgun and another Rhino for a marine squad

1 Obli sometimes

 

 

That is an all-comer list that has worked for me so far, relying in maneouvering, shooting and picking my fights, something I can't do against swarms

 

Yesterday I swapped the plague marnies and sorcerer for a tooled up assaulty marine squad in Rhino full of flamers and combi meltas and a Lord with combi flamer and daemon weapon but I suffered of bad rolls all game and lost badly. I know my list is not the best suited for the task and I may need to tailor after all.

 

And those nobz are not only nobz they are a near unkillable nob unit with the saves required to save anything the enemy can throw at them, with different equipment in each to avoid mass killing and with enough resiliense and power klaws attacks to put a dent on anything. Their only weakness is that they go on foot.

[Corpse.]

Yeah without tailoring lists, send in a bunch of empty rhinos (since he already uses cover saves) and block him off very good with them. Like a wall in front he has to melee-charge, and move in a way where you get within 2" and block him so one of his movement phases yields little movement.

 

Other then that, use your lack of numbers and sit in one side, while abusing the rhinos wreckage forcing him to take difficult terrain moves for large squads. That alone will hinder him enough to remove entire mobs before he reaches your lines.

 

Try that and return with the results if your into it. Additional rhino tactics inside my signature, perhaps water style in "elements" link will help you out as well. Swarm Orks hate water style.

[Hashulaman]

Flamers and pie plates. Orks hate template weapons, as so many can die, you do not want them to charge you, so it might be more prudent to charge them first, just to deny them the extra attacks and furious charge. Thats what i do anyways, Send berserkers into an ork mob and watch the mess. Granted may not be the smartest move, but it is fluffy, and those mariens are not going anywhere anytime soon. Sides, against normal Ork Boyz I would not worry, you could even use Khornate CSM with 2 flamers and get almost as good a result, you are trading furious charge for more models and a couple template weapons which negate those nasty cover saves. That has also worked for me, khorante marines with flamers. Though I prefer to keep the flamers on Plague marines, thats a fun unit. A good amount of Plague marines are almost guarenteed to tarpit orks for a turn or two. I like the autocannon havocs, that works well. Use dakka against Dakka, ork vechiles are not that strong so a volley of autocannon shots should take them out.

[Redbaron997]

3x Defiliers :)

 

Other than that Zerkers are great, Other CSMs are good to, just make sure you get that charge.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Sorry to be harsh, but the reason you are having trouble isn't because of his list, its because of yours. You don't need to tailor your lists to beat him, you just have to improve your list overall. I'm not going to give general list advice here as its already posted all over the forums, but i will explain the issues with your list. I'm doing this so that you may understand why i'm saying what i am and how to improve, not in order to be mean.

 

Sorcerer with Doom bolts

 

This is generally a weak HQ choice. Doombolt isn't a bad power for its price, but it isn't particularly powerful. Its designed to kill marines, but doesn't lack the strength to wound effectively. A larger issue is that it is a shooting power on a unit that has stats geared more towards CC. It would be better to get warptime to increase your CC capabilities. The other problem with it is that we just have much much better HQ options available. Lash sorcs, any sort of daemon prince, or lightning claw or even some daemon weapon lords. All our HQs need wings to achieve their full potential as well.

 

3X5 marine units with plasma gun

 

This squad is an easy kill point and doesn't do a whole lot. 1 plasma gun per 5 guys isn't that great. Yes its the same ratio as our 10 man squads, but it lacks their CC abilities. 5 man basic squas are also easy kill points, and suffer in CC due to combat resolution. And you really need fist champions to make vanilla CSMs useful, and they are too vulnerable in 5 man squads. You want 10 man squads with a fist champion. If you want a smaller squad, use cult marines. But even then you want larger than 5 man.

 

5-6 havocs with 3-4 AC

 

This unit choice isn't so much bad as inefficient. In your current situation, it isn't really a bad choice. But in general, havocs are too static and their weapons too expensive to be worth using over oblits or tanks with similar weaponry. Autocannons were better last codex when tank hunters could make them s8 against vehicles. Now they are only useful against light vehicles, which are generally not something chaos lists struggle with killing anyhow due to our ability to take double meltas on troops, and oblits.

 

6-7 plague marines with plasma gun and power fist champion with plasma pistol mounted in Rhino

 

Plague marines are great, but your weapon loadout is not ideal. You can take 2 special weapons in any size squad, so do so. Don't use plasma pistols ever. You could have a melta here for 5 points cheaper, and its better. For PMs in general you either want 2 plasma or two melta. Always use 2 of the same special. Keep the fist champ.

 

5 scouting chosen with either melta/flamer/champion with fist+combi in Rhino

 

Again, 5 guys is too small. Chosen are also not a very good unit. You are better off putting these points into troops. If you want some special weapons that you can get in behind your opponent, terminators with combi weapons are more efficient and harder to kill.

 

or 3 termies with combi melta and Reaper+pfist and another Rhino for a marine squad

 

3 man terminator squads with combi weapons are good units, but they are best kept cheap with just 3 combi weapons (traditionally used with combi meltas as anti tank). I would also suggest avoiding the reaper autocannon. It is not good enough to justify its cost.

 

or 5 infiltrating chosen with AC/ML and Mgun and another Rhino for a marine squad

 

Same issues as other chosen.

 

1 Obli sometimes

 

Oblits are great, but 1 is an easy kill point. Use 2 or use something else.

 

 

Hope this helps.

[chillin]

Take a HB havoc squad, take a dakka pred (if you have one), put flamers in squads,

use empty rinos to deny some of his squads movement or bottle them up in terrain, that way you can take them apart more piece mill. Don't kill some out of this squad A, and some out of squad B, etc, concentrate fire on one squad until it is basicly no threat. Killing 10 orks out of each of 3 squads of 30 really does nothing to the power of any of the squads, but kill 30 orks out of 1 squad of 30....

Using concertrated fire in combonation w/ the denying movement tactic should turn things around qiute abit.

good luck

[chillin]

My list at 1000-1100 points is:

 

Sorcerer with Doom bolts

3X5 marine units with plasma gun

5-6 havocs with 3-4 AC

6-7 plague marines with plasma gun and power fist champion with plasma pistol mounted in Rhino

5 scouting chosen with either melta/flamer/champion with fist+combi in Rhino

or 3 termies with combi melta and Reaper+pfist and another Rhino for a marine squad

or 5 infiltrating chosen with AC/ML and Mgun and another Rhino for a marine squad

1 Obli sometimes

 

Wow Raul, just noticed you list, very bad for fighting hoards. And not to sound harsh but I'm surprized it has wk'ed well for you so far.

But lets stick to orks for now:

2X5 csm w/ 1 plaz is very inferior to 10 csm's with 2 plaz, get rid of those 5 man squads, make proper 10 man squads.

As I said above, give those havocs HB's.

Why only 1 plaz in PM squad ? lose the plaz pistol

Why scouting chosen, do the orks not get to you fast enough ? Also, again 5 man squad just no enough. drop em'

certainly don't need melta termicide vs hoard orks. 3 flamer termicide may be quite effective.

Never 1 oblit.

 

most of this advice is just in general really, there are just alot of sub-par choices in this list

oh, do add that dakka pred.

I don't tailor list either, once this list is shaped up I really don't think you will have to either, it will be better vs orks and bettter vs everyone else also.

You certainly don't need lash spam to beat orks or anyone else. Congrats for avoiding it.

[Night Lord Dred]

4 HBs get less than a wound more than 4 autocannons against T4 units, at the cost of 2 strength and 12". They can match the Lootas range, and wound nob bikers on 2s while APing them. Then ofcourse, autocannons do better than heavy bolters or oblits against killa kan squadrons and trukks (especially if they get cover).

 

4xautocannons havocs ~= 2 oblits points wise. 8 shots is much better than 2, especially when you have to deal with hitting on 3s, cover saves, and the damage chart. Oblits in my opinion are useless against orks, as overkilling them with plasmacannons, or only getting a few shots at tanks with lascannons, really isnt worth 75 point. Orks are lightly armoured all around, and autocannons (or HBs) are much better options.

 

Otherwise, I agree with what was said above for the most part.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Berzerkers out of LRs bend Orks over.

I run 2x10 and I'm always thrilled to see an ork horde across the table.

The key is multicharging. 20 Berzerkers charging 90 Orks will win combat by ~18 (~8 dead zerk, ~26 dead orks)

Combat resoultion does the rest.

 

@Night Lord Dred: APing Nob bikerz doesn't help.