thade Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 The AoBR captain is what I have to work with, so here is my first draft: Captain - 150 pts Relic Blade Artificer Armor Command Squad - 265 pts Dual Lit Claws Lit Claw/Storm Shield Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Apothecary (I'll have to custom-model his narthecium, hack up a chainsword probably...or just model him without) I have three lit claws, and so far as I can tell there's no reason to take a power weapon when you have a lit claw available (same cost, both ignore armor, claws reroll wounds), and I have storm shields and infantry thunder hammers to spare. This looks like my dreamteam, frankly, and I've heard of far more expensive command squads. Looking for criticisms/advice here. =) Thanks in advance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 So you are not going to take the company champion or Standard Bearer? I can highly recommend taking both. With such a small number of models you are going to want to have every edge you can get over your opponents. The Champion, whilst getting the shaft when it comes to wargear choice, gives you a WS5 marine. Doesnt sound like much but when you run into those WS4 marines 4/5 of the time it is nice to hit them on 3+ he will also get 4 attacks on the charge not 3. The Standard will help by giving you a hand in combat resolution, this means that you can afford to go after targets slightly tougher than yourself with the knowledge that you are already one up on them. It also helps to be able to reroll morale checks, even LD 10 needs a helping hand now and again :teehee: As to why people will take power weapon over claw, it has everything to do with the extra attack. Against T3 you may not be needing the reroll to wound but you will likely be facing loads of the gits and will need every kill you can. This is where the extra attack helps you out. As with every ultra assault Command squad it suffers with even moderate casualties. Each death in the squad will count for something like 40+ points. FNP and 3++ helps to guard against death but cannot stop it alltogether and I fear if you get shot at alot you might just find that your squad shrinks to the size where running it into any kind of assault will mean that your guys get toasted before they can strike. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Every time i see a pimped out command squad or the like i always flinch.. a bad turn of dice rolling or a little attention from the enemy will see alot of points lost.. They are still only single wound with 3+ save... you need ablative wounds, a single death in that unit will hurt!! Gc08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 29, 2009 Author Share Posted August 29, 2009 @greatcrusade: That's my primary concern, honestly; I was pretty bummed about it's size. It's the apothecary I'm hoping makes up for the lack of grunts to sacrifice to wounds...and also, as it'll take me a while to build up to a full foot-slogging vanguard, this felt like a fun alternative/stepping stone towards that effort. @wan: Thanks for pointing out the extra attack with a power weapon; not something that had come to my mind...will give me something to think about. I might drop the single LC guy for a champ...four pw attacks at skill 5 might be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 IMHO, I don't think the command squad is the happiest option for close-combat units. Their price gets too high once you start giving them close combat gear, and close combat is the place where - a lot of the time - opponents will have power weapons of some kind, hence will be able to ignore your armor AND feel no pain. It sort of ends up ruining the biggest advantage of command squads; the ability to take multiple special weapons while at the same time being extremely resistant to small arms shooting. IMHO, you'd be better off getting 5 assault terminators; two or three with lightning claws, the rest with thunder hammers & shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 In my opinion the only Command Squad pimped for combat that works is the Biker Command. It gets very pricy but if you keep it simple and power weapon up I find the added toughness, speed, versatility of the squad allows it to survive a lot more combats. It relies on the rest of your army to deal a lot more kills though because you shouldnt just bum rush the nearest enemy unit in order to get to the killing quick. I find a lot of the time my unit is not entering combat until turn 3 when my army has peeled away the layers of enemy to expose the kind of unit I should be gunning for, medium toughness high armour Infantry which do not have an amazing invulnerable save. Their ability to shoot twin linked bolters on the move is oft overlooked in the rush to get killing and I can happily turbo boost turn 1 to kite an enemy of superior numbers and further peel them away from a main bulk. Because it is such a small unit many people just dont see how dangerous it is. Wan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Take the company standard... it cant hurt, and frankly its useful. It can go up from his backpack too... never says it takes up a hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I'm with gc08 on this. Too expensive, not enough resilience to inbound fire. IMO the way to make an effective melee Command Squad is to regard it as backup to the main event - the Brother-Captain. Now you've taken a Brother-Captain armed with a Relic Blade, which is good as it gives you an Init5 STR6 PWpn attack, but it leaves you slightly open to armoured assault, so I would at least take one Thunder Hammer or Power Fist as insurance against Kans or in order to crack vehicles. You don't really need the guys with Lightning Claws - STR4 rerollable isn't that neccessary when you have the Brother-Captain with Relic Blade. I'd drop all the LCs. Storm Shields are good, but by their nature they force you to risk whatever model you've put them on, making it less than wise to stack expensive kit on the Storm Shield. Yes, I know the standard arguement - that the Storm Shield precludes the use of an off-hand weapon, and so is a good match for a Thunder Hammer - but you end up with a Veteran worth ~65 points who is on Krak-catching duty. For reference, if I were running a melee Command Squad, I'd run this; Captain, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour, Digital Weapons (170) Command Squad (175ish) - Thunder Hammer wielder - Standard Bearer - Shield Bearer - Straight Veteran (maybe plus Melta Bomb or Plasma Pistol) The way I essentially treat Command Squads is as if they were a full 10 man unit, but the Captain is 5 guys all by himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 The way I've been looking at these guys is as if they are a half-way step to my much larger foot-slogging vanguard...and to be honest I just really wanted to try the apocathery out. Also, I am somewhat restricted right now as to how I gear out my captain...he's the AoBR capt, painted by my very pro friend as a gift. I might be able to glue a storm shield to him (like across his back or something) but I will likely proxy first. As for the rest, perhaps: - Shield Bearer - Shield Bearer - Thunder Hammer w/ the Standard - Lit Claws x2 (I have a guy with 2 lit claws :P *sheepish* and...i lub him) More shield bearers fits the theme of my army well, and gives me someone to soak hits. I am concerned however that at five mans, only two (or three if I gear the captain) mooks to soak hits = too many wounds over the rest of my command squad. Really the size is what's staying my hand all along. I may just skip directly to the ground vanguard and not model the apoc at all. I have seven sets of legs left...and plenty of other parts to suit up seven marines. If I did all seven as a ground-based vanguard and just had the captain run with them anyway......I could have 3-4 shield bearers, two special weapons guys, and the captain could tag along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 - Thunder Hammer w/ the Standard I was trying to think of reasons against this, and I can't... it really does give you more flexibility in the rest of the squad gear assignments... shame my Standard Bearer model doesn't have one, but consider that idea stolen for future use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 - Thunder Hammer w/ the Standard I was trying to think of reasons against this, and I can't... it really does give you more flexibility in the rest of the squad gear assignments... shame my Standard Bearer model doesn't have one, but consider that idea stolen for future use. I'm glad we had this talk. =) Frankly, a great deal of my good ideas for configuring my vanguard have come from you, so I'm very happy to return even a small part of the favor. I felt that since the thunder hammer marine would likely be the last one I let go down, he seemed the most likely to bear the standard. And with a hand free I could put it there, or just backpack mount it as was suggested. (I think I will do the later, making him more squad-portable...using him in both the command squad and my vanguard). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 My current Banner Bearer has a 9-foot long chainsword blade along the pole of the banner. I would probably do a similar thing with the Thunder Hammer version and just have the banner as part of the weapon -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 I bet there's a fantasy bit that would make that short work...like a poleaxe or long-hafted dwarven hammer. I love "counts as". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2094974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Yeah, I will add my vote to CC comand squads tend to be far to expensive. If I was going to do so I honestly would only give one of the comand squad a hammer, and give them all flamers, and let your captain do the real CC lifting, and your squad will crispy-fry things before charging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2095118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReclusiarch Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 This here is my Close Combat based Command squad: http://reclusiarch.deviantart.com/art/Spac...squad-124763122 I always count on the Command Squad to be utterly destroyed, it's just such a high value target. What I can say to you is, take a squad that compensates for your captains weaknesses. Me, I'm going with a Count as Lysander. His weakness is his rather low amounts of attacks and low initative. Because of that I made a really cheap, but effective squad, to help him out. You can check the picture, everything is WYSIWYG! :D So for you I'd suggest something that hits hard, a stormshield, a champion and some vanilla veterans. Fairly cheap, and the squad still kicks some butt! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2095277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I'm surprised you don't load that Command Squad up on Storm Bolters with Lysander leading it. Cheap but highly effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2095282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahrikmili Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 It's not the same thing but for my Blood Angels Honor Guard I take a Power Fist, a Power Weapon, 1 Flamer and 1 Meltagun as well as a Sanguinary High Priest (Apothecary of sorts). While it's definitely not a combat monster as your squad, for the price I can easily afford a TL Heavy Bolter Razorback to transport them in, and the Assautl Weapons can easily become ablative wounds if they come under really heavy fire. Your squad is definitely going to own mine in close combat.. But not after I hit you with TL Heavy Bolters, a Meltagun and a Flamer.. :lol: I hate overequipping squads. Just my 2c. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2096633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I hate overequipping squads. Just my 2c. Let it be known, Truth has been Spoken. The more I think about it, the more 4x flamers, 1xfist seams to be the way to go for a CC comand squad, give the enemy a solid burning to wittle down their numbers, and then let your captain/fist finish them off(well hopefully leave one, that way you are still locked in combat during their turn and dont get shot up) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177120-melee-based-command-squad/#findComment-2097129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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