Thunderfire cannon tactica

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

The thunder fire cannon is a new toy for the space marines, both loved and loathed by players across the globe. I'm here to describe the pros and cons of the units, tactics to remember while using it and how it can fit to compliment any sort of list.

 

 

Pros:

 

1: The TFC can fire in three different modes, each different and very useful if used in the correct situation. The sub munition round has the highest strength and lowest AP, useful against light-medium infantry out of cover. The Airburst round, my personal favourite, brings with it only the stats of a bolter, but with four blasts and the ability to ignore cover I find it perfect for blasting a unit off an objective, bye bye pathfinders. Then we have the sub terranian round. Again only boasting the stats of the humble bolter, this round makes a unit it HITS (Not wounds) move as if they are in difficult terrain. Perhaps the least used round, but it has its uses. If fired at a bike army or a wall of chimeras they will be taking many dangerous terrain tests. Or use it just to slow down those damn hordes. It can really make players grind teeth.

 

2: Practically free techmarine. He's great, he fixes, he bolsters cover, he kills. The TFC may seem a little bit spendy for such a fragile gun, but if you take the techmarine gunner out of the picture it costs no more than a power fist. I've had the cannon asploed only to have the techmarine punch out some deffcoptas with his servo arms, or support a squad hiding in the convenient bolstered ruin.

 

3: Range. The TFC is the longest ranged weapon in the space marine arsenal, the conversion beamer next to it. It can reach out across the board, no objective holders are safe.

 

Cons

 

1: Glass cannon. The TFC can be killed by a stray big shoota quite easily. To remedy this stick it in cover, preferably the ruin you bolstered with the techmarine and consider taking two for redundancy. Let the shells fly.

 

2: Other heavy supports. Many people argue that the TFC isn't worth its salt when compared to a whirly, dakka pred or vindicator. I disagree. The vindicator may blast out a much larger and stronger blast each turn, but only has one chance to hit its mark, plus if it is immobilized or its demolisher cannon is destroyed it's about as good as gone. The whirlies suffers from the some of the same fragility of the TFC, but unlike the TFC cannot as easily be hidden, or put down as many wounds. And the dakka pred cannot deal out the same amount of dakka.

 

3: No ruins. If you happen to get a table edge or board with no ruins, you're kinda out of luck. But a 4+ cover is better than nothing, right?

 

4: Created by heretics. Putting together the TFC destroyed my childhood, it's an evil, cursed model. Expensive too.

 

 

Tactics: Most players will be able to put together how to use this baby by the pros and cons listed above, but let me give you my thought on how to use this during a given game

 

Consider your opponent, is he horde? Mech? Speed freak? By considering the opponents army you can prioritize how your cannon will serve you best. For example. A pure Jump BA list I would probably use th subterranian, making him have to take dangerous terrain tests, or in the interests of self preservation, make him no faster than a foot slogger.

 

Consider the deployment and game. In an objective match the TFC takes a much more supportive role, which can effect the game greatly. If kept alive he can slow the enemies advance to new objectives, or blast a objective squatter from the surface of the planet. Making him have to send a scoring unit to reclaim his objective, splitting his army. In kill points the TFC is simple, KILL. Always fire the TFC first as blast need to take advantage of how many models are together.

 

Conclusion:

 

The TFC is a versatile Dakka factory, with a enough perks to more than cover it's price. A TFC is best used in a bolstered ruin in the back field to make up for its paper mache armor. Give it a good LOS so it has choices of targets. Remember to always consider your ammunition types and what the objective is. If destroyed try to get the most use out of the now free IC in artificer with power fists. Even with the TFC's high strength ammo, don't waste shooting on vehicles unless absolutely necessary, it's just not effective.

 

Hope my tactica helped you understand the use of The thunder fire cannon and it's role in a SM army.

[Warprat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding the TFC is a two piece unit. Since only one of the pieces (50%) needs to be in the terrain to get the benefit of cover for the whole unit, you can place the Tech in cover with the gun out. But the range and shot visability is measured from the end of the gun barrel. So you get the best of both worlds.

 

I suppose it could also make moving into the terrain easier as well... if for some reason you ever wanted to move the thing (Drop Pod or Reserve?????).

 

Warprat ;)

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I've lost sleep thinking about why in the world the TFC can take a DP. Also i don't believe cover works that way for artillery pieces, could be wrong.

[chapter master 454]

I've lost sleep thinking about why in the world the TFC can take a DP. Also i don't believe cover works that way for artillery pieces, could be wrong.

 

Eh, well the reason is...uh very simple the reason is SHUT UP <---An accruate reconstruction of how Matt ward would respond.

 

One key note, remember to consider all things. If your target has a 4+ armour save and is taking a 4+ cover save no point in using the cover negater round, the subterrain round is also my nemesis: it has immbolised my land raider redeemer corryvreakan one too many times. Then again My TFC 'morvern' had a showdown with the thing and with my superior use of shells (he went for full strength and cover save foiled him along with my techs armour save while my cover save negater salvo and 4 direct hits shut him up good).

 

Remember also that subterrain isn't useful that much, it's far too dicey (no pun intended) and is ironicly an effective anti-tank weapon (being able to slow down eldar skimmers going all out, etc.). Always fire full power at MEQs in cover, orks however are different kettle of fish where if they are completely open (none of their '50% is hidden' Rubbish) then full power will drop their numbers from 30 to 15 quickly in one go, however if they are cover hogging then let it rip with airburst and watch them fall like flys as their only protection is stripped away (remember, big meks shield only offers a cover save as well) and now your laying waste to them.

 

Another note is high elevations on buildings with balconies to help aid your hiding and none of the confusion round artil. units and even give you a great LoS. Try and ignore small units if you can and aim for large bottle-necked units.

 

In all other cases the thunderfire will be a one-shot deal, make it count and it sure as the emperors right leg rest can. It should always be your first firing unit, the herald of your shooting phase and is the best buddy of the whirlwind (haven't tryed combining them together) as their combined anti-infantry could pummel any infantry unit into submisson fast. Oh and for extra cheese try partial obsuring the TFC to your target, fire airburst and viola you get a cover save but they don't!

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Thanks for adding to the thread 454! It's indeed all in the use of the shells.

[Storm Hawks Legion]

i don't know if i should be posting here but how does it fare against tyranids?

[Grey Mage]

Id imagine it fairs rather well, I dont know though... I stand by my whirlwinds against tyranids.

 

Id say the biggest thing in my area is that people forget to bolster ruins and just put it in the open like its a tank. Its not a tank, its just an AV 10 peice of equipment and you have to treat it as such.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I'm not sure it would fare all that well against nids, besides gaunts and stealers nothing is very vulnerable to it (Multi wound or high save) the advantage here will be range, but because of the crazy amount of high S multi-shot dakka nids can put out I don't see it being the best Heavy choice. Against stealer heavy it may do well, but a few barbed stranglers will do it in.

[waaanial00]

Really? No good?

 

After a short discussion about subterrainian rounds people have forgotten them :)

 

In all seriousness unless it is a nuke or Screaming Choir, being able to slow down a Tyranid hoard is an absolute must do!

 

They typically deploy such that their gaunts are close packed and forming a meat shield, they will then deploy their larger beasts directly behind. Now you have at least 3 if not many more units you can scatter onto. Ok the Nids have move through cover but they are not moving the guarenteed 6" they would be and you have just likely taken a mean number of their gaunt shield away.

 

In addition to this it has a massive range which helps you out by allowing you to pound the nids each and every turn unit your distruction. Thinning the hoard is usually the only option from far away and having your missile launchers dedicated to putting wounds on the MC's without worrying about templating the little gits is a good thing also.

 

I am starting to use the TFC more and more. It seems to do well against just about everyone. I am a firm believer though that ignoring armour is only half of it, just because you have a fantastic armour save, doesnt mean you will keep making it. Shoot enough into anything and it will crumble and the TFC sure does that.

 

Oh and the question about the drop pod, it can be used empty to force an otherwise even number of pods into an odd number and allow, say two dreadnoughts, to arrive first turn. Now why it is there is likely as a continuation of a theme and a fluff tool for those who would otherwise ask "well how does it get there?".

 

Wan

[Grey Mage]

Oh, something else to note- if you can, get the old "Thudd Gun" model instead of this new hunk of badly fitting pewter. The things huge! and expensive... the older model is easier to make, paint, cart, use, hide, and is WYSIWYG in all respects.

[jonjacob]

TFC and whirlwind is a fantastic combo, i used this combo againts nidz, both severly mamed the gaunt units in the battle giving tactical unit to move in for the big bugs. good fight!

 

CON: againts NIDZ

what i didn't like about the TFC, is having a lictor pop out of reserve, on top of TFC bolster defences. that was face and palm moment.

 

PRO: againts NIDZ

one other good thing about the subterranean round is when it used againts jump infanty, esspecially when the enmey jumps them forcing a dangerous test, worked extremly well against winged warriors!

 

454 good call on the anti vechical!

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Making an enemy unit take a ridiculous number of dangerous terrain tests is golden (And hilarious)

 

And on the note of nids: I find it a little too hit or miss, It can do damage but when the little tykes are gone it can't help much against those T 5-7 3+ monsters. Also the little buggers will be able to fleet that D6 as normal.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Small note, Any unit is considered entirely in cover if 50% of its models are in cover. The gun itself need not be in cover if the Techmarine is, thus you can have the marine in cover (2+ ruins if you can swing it) and the gun out of cover (for a wider feild of fire) and the gun still gets the cover save. Esentialy dispite being a vehicle (artilery peace) it still gets to use the techmarines cover save (as the techmarine is 50% of the unit), and the techmarine of course uses the much more generous infantry cover rules.

 

As far as the TFC being built by heritics, thats just silly. It was built by dwarves before the bugs ate them. Any dificulty puting them together is because theya re desighned for small hands.

[jonjacob]

Making an enemy unit take a ridiculous number of dangerous terrain tests is golden (And hilarious)

 

storm boyz and Gargoyles would be an ideal option for it especially if the squad cap is full. 30 dangerous terrain tests is very funny.

[chapter master 454]

i don't know if i should be posting here but how does it fare against tyranids?

 

Tyranids would laugh at it, the problem lies in they unlike orks can take small units and still not worry about numbers with their 'without number' rule. The only bonus it would confer is not the subterrain round but the fact you can actually easily soften their more vunerable one off units. In kill points fire at the respawn units and keep those KP coming in with it. Fexs could feel it's wraith if your in a pinch and subterrain round can be useful to seriously hurt Hive tyrants with wings (Your 2+/6++ is no good here, take one wound off!).

 

The other main consern is tyranid shooting isn't exactly weak, it isn't great ether but what they pack can seriously hurt so your targets with the thunderfire unless in KP mission would be anything that only has one life, warriors, raveners or anything that can't respawn and waste your most likely only shot. Speaking from experience I have never used subterrain rounds except once or twice and the results are far too far and inbetween for me. The case-in-point is why slow it when you can kill? seriously if those 30 orks look menacing then just throw them some air-burst loving and then that 30 will soon lessen up and a follow up from a tactical squad could easily bring them down to about 16 or so, even more perhaps. Tanks however hate the subterrain round so let me remind people about this: Jump infantry, bikes (I think), tanks and other things that take dangerous terrain checks are the only thing that will even suffer a minor impedment from the sub round. It is nice in theory but theory is never solid forever and this is it as the sub round can only effectively be used on tanks (and if your aiming at tanks then it must of done a good job last turn on the enemy infantry).

 

Lets list the rounds:

Surface-detonation: this is standard round you'll be using against MEQs throughout a fight, Str that makes even marines cringe however lacking AP but that isn't the problem. Cause enough wounds and they fail saves, simple. Great for dealing with plague marines whose only real bonus protection is T5 wounding them on 3s is great. This round will level any unit dumb enough to stray into the open and in LoS of the TFC.

 

Air-burst: this will be most used against armies like horde orks and cover hog units which ether use their numbers to hide 50% in cover or rely on their high cover save (respectively). A drop in strength and AP is getting worse however the AP is still enough to ignore orks basic armour and the strength still wounds them on a 3+, it's basicly a super heavy bolter that ignores cover saves to orks which is something they dread. This round type is second most used round and can help take down pesky eldar pathfinders or scouts in ruins with their camo cloaks on (note: if cover save = armour save then just go for Surface detonation, you gain the better strength and even if you ignore their cover save their armour still works. This however is void is both Cover save and armour save are 6+ where ignoring even the chance of survival is crucial, remember never leave it to the dice). This round has done me very pround and while it is second most used I consider this the most effective round for dealing with horde armies, above average Str and ignores cover saves and with 4 blasts like the other 2 rounds, it is just a killer of masses of infantry.

 

Sub-terrainian: this is next to useless. Yes it's nice but seriously, only Str4 and has no AP you are wasting the TFCs firing phase if you use this on infantry unless your oppnent can't roll higher than 1 on two dice. This is mainly the TFCs tank defence round, with just the requirement of having a whisker of one of the 4 templates on the tank to cause it's next movement to be considered dangerous (even skimmers) you actually have a fairly tank threatening weapon here because getting an automatic immbolise by your opponent rolling a 1, thats priceless considering all you had to do was feather it with the template instead of hitting direct (2/3 chance) and if this is an average tank with say about 12 front and we're firing a krak at it then you got to penetrate (2/3, 1/2 if you include glancing) then roll to see the damage which a third isn't any damage but somewhat easier to kill next turn results, 2 are systems which affect the tanks ability and 2 just plain and simple mangle it. so we have I think 3 dice in total, all with 6 on it so thats 216 results I think unless I forgot how this works, take off a third of that so 72 results then only a further third is favourabe (we're going for full kill here, no glancing) so 24 results and then if we wanted immobilised or better thats half so only 12 results are favourble out of 216 here with normal methods (that in numbers equals a 0.056 chance to do an immobilised or better result). Now we all know why the thunderfire now makes such a good tank crippling weapon lets just remember thats not it's function and that it shoud aim with the other two rounds at all other times. If no targets except tanks exist and are going to move, go nuts with the sub round.

 

So can people stop ragging on how the sub-terrain round is such an invaluable horde kiler, it ain't. Most horde armies I face going through cover just to ensure cover so the difference isn't much and unless you really do have something with the equal of the thunderfires anti-infantry power (like another one) then I can't see how using subterrain round is useful in general purpose. In certain cases it would have a use but not many. I have used my thunderfire many many times and I have learned how to use the famous glass cannon to the point of knowing how to keep it past turn 1, key being to make sure your opponent can't reach it and that if he just send some shots it way then another unit will cause them the utmost of all hell! Load your shells, set your fuse, put in your targeting solution and lay waste to the enemies of mankind!

[Gornall]

I loved my Thunderfire up until I played DoW (I actually wished I had a DP then). Moving through cover = 30.5% chance of losing either the Techmarine or the TFC. Boo to that. I agree with CM464 in that the key to keeping it alive is to use the superior range (hide it in a corner) or make your opponent have to put it pretty far down on the threat list. Otherwise, it goes "poof" very easily.

[Warprat]

If it's drop podded, can it fire on the turn of landing?

 

Warprat ;)

[Koremu]

If it's drop podded, can it fire on the turn of landing?

 

Warprat ;)

I don't think so. Stuff that turns up in a drop pod counts as moving, and artillery pieces can't move and fire IIRC.

[Frosty the Pyro]

If it's drop podded, can it fire on the turn of landing?

 

Warprat ;)

 

 

No, it will count as having moved and artilery peices can never fire when moving, the Techmarine however may fire (and remember he has a twin linked plasma pistol, a flamer, and a bolter of which he may fire 2)

[Commander Sasha]

... the Techmarine however may fire (and remember he has a twin linked plasma pistol, a flamer, and a bolter of which he may fire 2)

Can he fire the Thunderfire and one of the other guns? Admittedly 12" for the plasma pistol is getting a bit close for the TF, but it MIGHT happen!

[Warprat]

If it's drop podded, can it fire on the turn of landing?

 

Warprat ;)

 

 

No, it will count as having moved and artilery peices can never fire when moving, the Techmarine however may fire (and remember he has a twin linked plasma pistol, a flamer, and a bolter of which he may fire 2)

 

 

Well, at least that's something... a bit farfectched, but he could land first turn, and fire his personal weapons at a squishy unit with help from say a tactical squad, then fire the gun next turn if the cannon is still around. If the cannon blows up, he could team up with the tactical squad if he is still alive. The tac squad could help screen against attacks.

 

Warprat ;)

[Frosty the Pyro]

... the Techmarine however may fire (and remember he has a twin linked plasma pistol, a flamer, and a bolter of which he may fire 2)

Can he fire the Thunderfire and one of the other guns? Admittedly 12" for the plasma pistol is getting a bit close for the TF, but it MIGHT happen!

No they cannot, the artilery rules rules say a model fireing a [artilery] gun cannot fire any weapons they are carrying.

[waaanial00]

I think the point is that the artillery wouldnt be able to fire, so the Techmarine is technically not doing so and is therefore free to fire his own weapons.

 

Wan

[chapter master 454]

Point of drop pod: to get a unit to a position on the board without question. Squads who benefit from this are tacticals, sterns and other who can perform the bolter blitz. DP form the a more rapid and easily positioned 'Bolter blitzkrieg' which is what DP armies use and thus in total I named it such (if I remember my poor german correctly Blitzkrieg means 'lightning war' or something like that). Drop pods are completely opposite to what a TFC needs.

 

In DoW the TFC will suffer the first turn but if you are a good tactician you will pick a route that is shortest to the most ideal spot, however if it can reach a moderate firing arc in turn one to fire turn 2 that is better than getting into an excellent firing arc on turn 2 to fire on turn 3 as the former leaves only 1 turn for the opponent to fire at it, the latter leaves 2 turns. Lets remember the pros and cons of the TFC

 

Pros:

Range: bringing to the table a hefty 60" range that means any bar the very edge of the opponents opposite corner is dangerous if this thing is on high ground. When it picks a target you just skip the measuring part because if you on a standard table then there can be no doubt it's in range.

 

Power: Oh packing str6 templates in packs of 4 is serious punch, while more elite and other MEQ units will have their save you are still wounding them on 2 and eldar have to be wary of this insta-death weapon to them. Even if they hide we can just give up one str and fire a str5 cover save negating blasts of righteous fury.

 

Use after destruction: that techmarine ain't just for show, when that cannon kicks the bucket he turns IC and has all the tricks of a normal Techmarines including the repair ability (shame he can't repair the cannon) which lets remember is on a 4+ due to the harness he has. This is a budget unit of some high degree, that marine would cost about is it 75pts? basicly that cannon costs 25pts and when it can pay back over 100pts in one salvo it is a near must have for any gun-line army.

 

Cons:

Durability: it got the nickname 'glass cannon' for a reason and not because it fired shards of glass at people. It is terribly fragile, with a single lucky bolter glance away from being mangled it does have to be careful and use it's range for protection. Another consern is the techmarine, with one wound even while the 2+ he has stops most things it takes one dice roll to kill him and the cannon. However bolster defence and being able to gain a cover save of 3+ helps to keep the flaw down however is only meant for stopping those casul LC shots, not an entire army.

 

Mobility: This thing is slow. While the same as infantry in movement phase, it can't run and so will have to set up in its position in the gunline in deployment and is under any condition to NOT be reserved unless forced (DoW).

 

Scatter: ok this isn't a problem for gun-liners but for assault boys who are taking this for softening up those 30 orks who did a unison of smurf theme to you then your going to have to ether watch on how close your guys get when you fire it or if your like me and have faith in your TFC use it for your pre-charge shooting. So far I haven't been a victim of my own TFC (so far I've have my honour guard of 10 men, my two venerables risking a rear armour shot from it and even several tacticals doing a last stand thank my TFC for an accruate saviour barrage) however I do know that other have appaling luck with scatter and in which case you will want to shoot your charge target about a turn in advance to avoid any nasty backfire.

 

On the whole the cannon is very balanced, it's powerful but vunerable. It has reach but can't really move. The scatter is more conditional in all terms but still stands. Put simply taking one is never a bad choice if you know how to use it and if you do know how to use it then it will pay back double it's points easy within 3 salvos (maybe even less).