Throne Of Skulls Heat 3 Blog: Pure GK (now with added IST)

[Alanter]

Another great battle report. Liked to read it.

 

I think Oncle Mel speaks right. Our heros are not the best. A GKT retinue gives them protection in two ways the first is the retinue rule witch ist very cool - even for socking up wounds in cc. The other is the threat that a 3-4 GKT squad generates. Charing a 6man PAGK squad with any kind of hero attached makes me want to kill the hero, because the PAGK have noch powerweapons and less attacks on the charge.

[skarn]

My list is largely similar to yours;

 

GM w/sacred incense, 4 GKT retinue with 1 thunder hammer and 1 incinerator.

 

6 PAGK w/1 incinerator, justicar has frags.

 

6 PAGK w/1 incinerator, justicar has frags.

 

LR Crusader w/extra armour, smoke.

 

LR w/extra armour, smoke.

 

LR w/extra armour, smoke.

 

The GM and retinue gives me a depandable hammer unit that can take out most things on the charge. I tried the BC and I simply don't like him: I4 and 1 wound is simply not efficient for a HQ. The GM seriously puts the hurt on enemy HQs that would otherwise run rampant (especially Chaos ones). The fact that they aren't scoring means I don't care as much about getting them stuck in.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just a small point about one of the assaults versus your LR;

 

His DP still in b2b with the immobilised Raider tore it to pieces

 

You don't stay 'locked' in CC with a vehicle (and there's some mention somewhere of showing this by retreating an inch away after your assault phase) so he would have been unable to continue to Assault your LR in your Assault phase.

 

Hopefully this should help make them a little more durable to enemy Assaults! ;)

[SamaNagol]

He actually said he didn't get to attack, but then I pointed him to page 63, right column 'Successive turns'

 

If a vehicle that has been assaulted, and has survived, does not move in its successive Movement phase, enemy models will still be in base contact with it during its Shooting and Assault phase. Enemy models that are in base contact with a vehicle are not locked in combat and can therefore be shot during the Shooting phase.

 

If the vehicle pivots on the spot (to shoot at its attackers for example), move these models out of the way as you shift the vehicle and then place them back in base to base contact with the vehicle.

 

Units that still have models in base contact with a vehicle in its Assault phase may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat (including all models that would count as engaged in a normal assault)

 

So not only do models who are in base contact get to attack the vehicle in its own turn, also models who are within 2" of models in base contact ca attack too.

[SamaNagol]

In response to the people suggest I take Terminators. I have tried them out several times, and while they are definitely a great threat, they hamstring your army in objective missions because you do not remain truly flexible in your movement. Your PAGK Raiders are set to head to pre-determined points on the board and the Terminators are only good for contesting and shifting units off objectives. I have seen over the last couple of months that you can't run only 2 6 man troops choices at 1500pts and expect to remain competitive in the 2 out of 3 objectives missions.

[skarn]

In response to the people suggest I take Terminators. I have tried them out several times, and while they are definitely a great threat, they hamstring your army in objective missions because you do not remain truly flexible in your movement. Your PAGK Raiders are set to head to pre-determined points on the board and the Terminators are only good for contesting and shifting units off objectives. I have seen over the last couple of months that you can't run only 2 6 man troops choices at 1500pts and expect to remain competitive in the 2 out of 3 objectives missions.

Thats fair enough, but in my experience you are going to need to shift enemy units off objectives in 90% of games, and GKT do a much better job than PAGK. I changed to using termis because I thought they were more effective in objective missions, haha!

[SamaNagol]

I really find that with only two scoring units it becomes almost impossible to win objectives games, especially if you get some bad luck and one of those raiders gets popped in the first or second turn.

[skarn]

I really find that with only two scoring units it becomes almost impossible to win objectives games, especially if you get some bad luck and one of those raiders gets popped in the first or second turn.

Losing a Raider early is tough, but 6 man PAGK squads are really bad footslogging, especially with twin incinerators. Even so, stick what works for you. With my GK I usually try to either wipe the enemy scorers out in a concentrated attack, or use 1 unit to score and everything else focuses on contesting.

[Archon_77]

I really find that with only two scoring units it becomes almost impossible to win objectives games, especially if you get some bad luck and one of those raiders gets popped in the first or second turn.

Losing a Raider early is tough, but 6 man PAGK squads are really bad footslogging, especially with twin incinerators. Even so, stick what works for you. With my GK I usually try to either wipe the enemy scorers out in a concentrated attack, or use 1 unit to score and everything else focuses on contesting.

 

 

This is also how I do it. . . a wins a wins a win, even if I only have one objective and my opponent has none.

 

It's all about concentrated fire and maximizing the low model count. . and if I can stick 7,6,5 PAGK in a raider on an objective, load up the rest in another LR for support/contesting a second objective and then Deepstrike my termies into a third objective then I get what a want (win) by denying my opponent what he wants. (objectives). Opponent has more troop choices spread on 4 different objectives? Great, just means less resistance for my remaining LR and Termies to take/deny those points.

[SamaNagol]

Started work on my Grand Master. Inspired by St Theo's piece

 

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/Sa...ol/DSC00185.jpg

 

I will probably be coming back to this several times over the next month or so.

 

I'm going to get some painting practise on Space Wolves as I feel a bit rusty. As I got inspired by some artwork in the book, I started work on a new Logan Grimnar conversion too...

 

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt91/Sa...ol/DSC00183.jpg

[SamaNagol]

Played a game against Salamanders yesterday and while I started off well wiping out a unit in a drop pod, zapping 2 Attack Bikes before they could get close enough and beating Vulkan + 5 Terms in assault with my GM and Retinue, it ended up being a draw as the Melta took it's toll and the small unit sizes couldn't withstand the following array of shooting. Was a good game though. I'll write it up in the week.

 

Also looking to get some games in against MEldar and the new wolves.

[avatar8481]

You seem to be doing very well with what is essentially a 4th edition list. You've faced some tough opponents, and while tri-raider/water was great in 4th it has suffered in 5th from a lack of troops (as you've pointed out). Your modeling looks great though, and it'll be a great army to watch and use. (I've run similar lists myself a lot). If you're not committed to GK-only you might try IST troops in Chimeras or Rhinos to get the extra bodies and melta you need in 5th edition, or switching the GHLR to LRC for the multi-melta.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sama,

 

From looking at the new SW 'Dex, there's quite a few thngs that might cause you problems.

 

Arjak in a Drop Pod will be nasty to a Raider, getting a S10 AP1 attack off on the turn the Pod Lands (most of the time!). Ragnar is going to be nearly unbeatable in CC. For Force Weapon kills, the Wolves will have a 5+ Save (from thier Wolf Tail talisman) if they don't use Njal (or a RP) for his 3+.

 

Long Fang Squads with 5 MM will also hurt a Raider based list, especially if they stick Logan in a DP with a Squad for Relentless.

 

Lone Wolves in TDA with a SS can also suck up a lot of fire. Plus a slightly cheaper (than 'nila) LRR for melting any PAGK if thier LRs get popped.

 

I'm not sure what a Pure GK list can bring to give much trouble to the new Wolves.

[SamaNagol]

Pretty much yep.

 

It's not much fun when the wheels fall off. It looks nice though.

[skarn]

Sama,

 

From looking at the new SW 'Dex, there's quite a few thngs that might cause you problems.

 

Arjak in a Drop Pod will be nasty to a Raider, getting a S10 AP1 attack off on the turn the Pod Lands (most of the time!). Ragnar is going to be nearly unbeatable in CC. For Force Weapon kills, the Wolves will have a 5+ Save (from thier Wolf Tail talisman) if they don't use Njal (or a RP) for his 3+.

 

Long Fang Squads with 5 MM will also hurt a Raider based list, especially if they stick Logan in a DP with a Squad for Relentless.

 

Lone Wolves in TDA with a SS can also suck up a lot of fire. Plus a slightly cheaper (than 'nila) LRR for melting any PAGK if thier LRs get popped.

 

I'm not sure what a Pure GK list can bring to give much trouble to the new Wolves.

A lot of that stuff is really expensive though. Logan in a pod is probably the worst thing, and that is at least 450 points. Ragnar is tough too, but he's also 240 points. We can have a GM with a couple of TH/SS termis for that much, and they will win half the time.

 

Don't get me wrong, the wolves are probably one of the hardest fights the pure GK list has (except for dark eldar.....), but it isn't impossible.

[Gentlemanloser]

A lot of that stuff is really expensive though. Logan in a pod is probably the worst thing, and that is at least 450 points. Ragnar is tough too, but he's also 240 points. We can have a GM with a couple of TH/SS termis for that much, and they will win half the time.

 

After running Ragnar over the weekend, I'd have to disagree.

 

Ragnar will go first, with I6 (Well that's moot facing TH/SS), He'll hit on 3+ (and make even the GK hit on 4's in return), with an obscene amount of attacks. 4 base, 5 for two CCW, +d3 for the Charge.

 

Hitting on S6, while you've only got the weaker DH Storm shields to protect you from his hits.

 

On top of that, you have a massive amount of savable wounds coming in from whatever Squad he's attached to. Even if it's a bare bones Grey Hunter Squad, that's 20 + 20 x D3 S5 attacks.

 

I seriously doubt a GM with a couple of GKT will live thorugh that.

 

Then whatever's left, if you don't manage to kill Ragnar (and ID is the best best as he's not an Eternal Warrior), he'll have an ungodly amount of extra attacks in the next phase. I ran him into a Tac squad and killed 7 marines. The next assault phase saw him with 12 attacks +d3 for being charged...

 

Logan in a Pod is really expensive, but if you're facing a Multiple Raider list, it's going to be devestating. Dropping the pod close to as many Raiders as you can get it, use Logan to allow the Multi Meltas to fire on the turn you drop them, and Fire Control to hit two (if you're in Range of both).

 

Brutal.

 

And with SW standard Troops being as cheap (or cheaper?) than normal 'nilla ones, with a better base wepaon loadout, you can afford to splurge on a couple of the awesome, but expensive special characters.

[SamaNagol]

The GM is probably the best value SM HQ choice in the game. I'd run him and a 4 man GKT retinue against Ragnar and a squad of Grey Hunters and keep my fingers crossed. There's no way they are getting the charge because I'm not getting out of the taxi unless it's been reduced to a molten wreck, and without Furious Charge I know I am at least going to kill Ragnar simultaneously.

 

I would treat SW very similar to Blood Angels and Sallies. Very dangerous between 12 inches and CC range. Try and stay mobile and only engage parts of the army at once, hopefully using superior movement to glide past Melta range and get into combat. The SW do melta as well as BA and are just about as good at assault, but are more durable at the expensive of less speed. They do melta worse than Sallies but have better CC abilities.

 

The Logan WGT list scares me though. Especially when you can have whole units with 3++ saves hitting at initiative with a Wolf Claw and then re-rolling misses with Preferred Enemy & re-rolling to wound. Although Daemonhunters 46pt TH/SS Termies look like a bargain now compared to the SW 63 point model.... if you ignore the 4++ save lol. Always fun if you get the chance to hit Logan on the head with one and keep him striking last.

[Lord Asher]

The GM is probably the best value SM HQ choice in the game.

 

I have to overwhelming agree with you here. I can't understand why most players look "down their nose" at this character. Combine this great value with the "retinue rule" and this guy is an absolute terror. I think people are just really caught up with "eternal warrior" or crap. Even though most of the 40k universe has very few eternal warrior characters that are not monstrous creatures.

[SamaNagol]

The Eternal Warrior thing is nice, but a Strength 6 Force Weapon is just hideous anyways. And with 5 attacks on the charge and being untargetable he really is an absolute monster when it comes to CC.

 

If they somehow managed to leave him as he is in the next iteration of the codex I would be happy. Retinue rule and 'kills outright' is great. He isn't over powered for his cost cos he is still pricey and doesn't confer any of the SM HQ fancy rules on his boys. And those GKT are reasonably expensive.

 

I am strongly considering trying out number6's IST build, but I want to stay pure to the GK!

[Lord Asher]

The Eternal Warrior thing is nice, but a Strength 6 Force Weapon is just hideous anyways. And with 5 attacks on the charge and being untargetable he really is an absolute monster when it comes to CC.

 

If they somehow managed to leave him as he is in the next iteration of the codex I would be happy. Retinue rule and 'kills outright' is great. He isn't over powered for his cost cos he is still pricey and doesn't confer any of the SM HQ fancy rules on his boys. And those GKT are reasonably expensive.

 

I am strongly considering trying out number6's IST build, but I want to stay pure to the GK!

 

 

Agree completely.

 

I love IST's, they win games. Grey Knights kill stuff but my IST's rush in and take the glory every game.

[Magnus Thane]

Impressive and most inspiring blog!

Great to see people still trying to work with Pure GK.

[number6]

I am strongly considering trying out number6's IST build, but I want to stay pure to the GK!

I hear ya. But I think you'll find that the IST-based list is much more well-rounded.

[SamaNagol]

Number 6:

 

GM w/ Psychic Hood (or MC on the NFW and Sacred Incense)

4 GKT

LRC w/ Smoke

 

BC

4 GKT

LRC w/ Smoke

 

5 IST w/2xMeltagun

Rhino w/XArmour & Smoke

 

5 IST w/2xMeltagun

Rhino w/XArmour & Smoke

 

5 IST w/2xMeltagun

Rhino w/XArmour & Smoke

 

About right? I assume you fire the Meltaguns out the top hatch.

 

I might try out the GM and Retinue in one LRC and then an 8 man PAGK in the other Raider. All helps for objectives.

[SamaNagol]

I thnk I wil try out the above and also this:

 

GRAND MASTER 170

Sacred Incense

Master Crafted NFW

 

4 GREY KNIGHT TERMINATORS 184

1 Thunder Hammer

;)

8 GREY KNIGHTS 245

2 Incinerators

 

5 INQUISITION STORMTROOPERS 128

2 Meltaguns

Rhino w/ Smoke & Extra Armour

 

5 INQUISITION STORMTROOPERS 128

2 Meltaguns

Rhino w/ Smoke & Extra Armour

 

5 INQUISITION STORMTROOPERS 128

2 Meltaguns

Rhino w/ Smoke & Extra Armour

LAND RAIDER CRUSADER 258

Smoke Launchers

 

LAND RAIDER 258

Extra Armour

Smoke Launchers

[number6]

That's the basic structure, yes. I think that having a deep-strike defense Inquisitor is usuallly important, especially since you can mount him in a transport with a multi-melta. See this topic for several example army lists.

 

The only problem with shooting from the top hatch is that you can only get 1 guy to do it with our lame codex rules. :( That's one of the reasons having more multi-meltas is better, 'cause at least you get the range bonus with it, which extends your army's threat bubble. Otherwise, you can't be too afraid of sacrificing an IST unit to get the best shot at stopping dangerous enemy armour. (E.g., if you're facing 2-3 raiders opposite you, drop the ISTs in front and slag them post haste!)

 

Also, the lack of GKs generating dakka on the ground should always be made up for by taking GK LRCs instead of normal LRs. You can move it 6" and fire every weapon, or 12" and fire everything but 1 weapon, which is truly awesome. A single LRC makes up for the lack of anti-infantry firepower that footslogging GKs used to provide in pure GK lists. It also has that wonderful multi-melta. :D

 

As always, keep up the good work on this topic.