High strength support? Hmm what to take

[Shenaniganz]

Hi all thread go-ers of the TACTICA ASTARTES forum.

I am building my first Loyalist SM army and ive got an idea for my troops base but it doesn't involve any tank popping abilities. Sooo im wondering what i should take to fill this role?

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Predator with lascannons for some armoured strength 9 goodness and maybe even chronus for the extra bs

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Dev squad though they can be squishy for the pure ammount of weapons they can field

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Venerable dread with hunter killer missile, auto cannon and missile launcher or auto cannon and plasma cannon or plasma cannon and missile launcher or... or... whatever

 

'Please give me your thoughts on this -_-

[Grey Mage]

What point value? And what are your troops lookin like?

[Koremu]

Most of your best options for Anti-Tank don't come from Heavy Support. They come from Fast Attack.

 

Multi-Melta Attack Bikes and Skimmers are cheaper, more mobile and more powerful than any of the HS options.

[Shenaniganz]

Mmmk Grey mage here is what i was thinking

 

AHEM

 

10 marines with pf, flamer, heavy bolter and rhino with extra armour X2 490pts

10 scouts with camo cloaks, heavy bolter, telion 217pts

and i was thinking of 2 5 man scout squads with a sarge with pf and combi melta in storms with meltas as an alternitive to long range support but this could be a bit of a 1 trick pony 350 pts

 

This is basically the main bits that i was really keen on as i arleady have to squads of tactical marines and i really love scouts. Also ill be aiming for 1500pts

 

Sweet jesus Koremu i posted this before i saw your post and i like your idea because i was aiming for i kind of versitile "air" army but could this be effective against horde cc armies

[greatcrusade08]

10 scouts with camo cloaks, heavy bolter, telion 217pts

 

Not to nitpick but this is actually 227 points :D

 

I agree with Koremu, MM attack bikes and speeders are definately the way to go, at 150 points for three (and only one killpoint if in a squad/ron) they are the cheapest and most capable.

For me the attack bike trump speeders for LOS purposes.

 

Gc08

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Most of your best options for Anti-Tank don't come from Heavy Support. They come from Fast Attack.

 

Multi-Melta Attack Bikes and Skimmers are cheaper, more mobile and more powerful than any of the fast attack options.

Thats the bottom line... All the HS choices have their place, but fast attack choices with AT weapons are points for point the best AT stuff for SMs. I plumb for attack bikes over speeders, but they are both very effective.

 

Devastators with missile launchers are also worth a look - they can take on AT and horde killer duties and cost less than some other options for the amount of death they spit out. They ain't as good as MM attack bikes though...

[joeshmoe]

For me the attack bike trump speeders for LOS purposes.

 

Gc08

 

@ GC08: Why is that? I thought LOS woked n the favor of speeers.

[Koremu]

@ GC08: Why is that? I thought LOS woked n the favor of speeers.

I think he means that they are smaller/lower, so more difficult to draw a line of sight to.

 

Sweet jesus Koremu i posted this before i saw your post and i like your idea because i was aiming for i kind of versitile "air" army but could this be effective against horde cc armies

 

Land Speeder w/ Heavy Flamer and Multi-Melta - the close range attack speeder, either move 12" and pop a tank, or move 12" and flamerise Infantry.

 

Land Speeder w/ Heay Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launcher - the long range "skirmish" Land Speeder, either move 12" and fire 3 HB shots and 2 Frag Templates (Frags are defensive weapons), or move 12" and fire 2 Krak Missiles vs. Armour, or move 6" and fire 2 Kraks and 3 HB rounds (this latter is good for tearing down opposing Land Speeder Squadrons, or other AV10 units like Vypers and War Walkers).

 

I want more Land Speeders, because practically every possible weapon fit is highly flexible, multi-role and decently cheap. I'm strongly tempted to field 9.

[JamesI]

@ GC08: Why is that? I thought LOS woked n the favor of speeers.

I think he means that they are smaller/lower, so more difficult to draw a line of sight to.

In my experience, its harder to hide a speeder. So, if just using a multimelta, it goes on a bike. Speeders advantage is the ability to carry more weapons.

[Chengar Qordath]

I want more Land Speeders, because practically every possible weapon fit is highly flexible, multi-role and decently cheap. I'm strongly tempted to field 9.

I actually am fielding nine in my current army; they're amazingly effective. Just be sure there are plenty of other vehicles in the list to help spread the enemy's anti-vehicle fire around.

[thade]

Sweet jesus Koremu i posted this before i saw your post and i like your idea because i was aiming for i kind of versitile "air" army but could this be effective against horde cc armies

 

I field between 1-2 assault squads (both with 2x flamers and a serg with a power fist and melta bombs) and an airborne vanguard (2xPF, 2xLit Claws, four guys with only Storm Shields) and I use these skirmisher teams to tie up (and eat) anything that can't stand up to CC. The power fists in each group are fair anti-tank, good chances of taking out anything light...the meltas are 5pt just-in-case they run into the likes of a land raider. I've considered kitting up a vanguard for the explicit purpose of eating vehicles: usually this boils down to an entire squad with just shields and meltas, but I haven't tried this yet)

 

Otherwise, my anti-vehicle comes in the form of the AoBR multi-melta dread with a techmarine backing him up. 24" is decent range for vehicle tackling, and since it's a dread, I don't worry too much about closing to half-range for the melta bonus.

 

Finally, I have two tactical squads and each has a heavy weapon destined for long range anti-vehicle...either a lascannon or a missile launcher.

[DarkGuard]

I'll agree with many people that the multi-melta attack bikes are the best anti-tank choice in the Space Marine army. They are fast, durable, and can pack quite a punch. I've been consistently using them and haven't regretted using them since.

 

However, the main problem is that compared to other anti-tank weapons, the multi-meltas are short ranged, and although the bikes are fast, they can't fire if they are moving at the fastest speed. Also, the maximum damage that a multi-melta can do if half it's actual range, meaning that they by the time they catch up with some tanks, the damage has already been done. In particular, I'm talking about transport vehicles. The worst thing about Rhino's is the unit inside, and if your bikes only catch it half way across the field they haven't got long to go before they reach your deployment zone/objective.

 

So those MM attack bikes need to balanced out by something like a combi-pred or even a TL-LC Razorback which can take out transports from range, stranding your opponent's troop units in his deployment zone while your MM attack bikes take ou the bigger, harder to kill tanks.

 

So if you can fit it into your army I'd advocate a unit of 2 MM attack bikes, and either a combi-pred or something similar (TL-LC Razorback, 2x TL-AC Dreadnought), allowing you to have two anti-tank units with different focuses that could also lend their firepower in the other area if needed.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Koremu]

The main problem is that compared to other anti-tank weapons, the multi-meltas are short ranged, and although the bikes are fast, they can't fire if they are moving at the fastest speed. Also, the maximum damage that a multi-melta can do if half it's actual range, meaning that they by the time they catch up with some tanks, the damage has already been done. In particular, I'm talking about transport vehicles. The worst thing about Rhino's is the unit inside, and if your bikes only catch it half way across the field they haven't got long to go before they reach your deployment zone/objective.

 

So those MM attack bikes need to balanced out by something like a combi-pred or even a TL-LC Razorback which can take out transports from range, stranding your opponent's troop units in his deployment zone while your MM attack bikes take ou the bigger, harder to kill tanks.

 

So if you can fit it into your army I'd advocate a unit of 2 MM attack bikes, and either a combi-pred or something similar (TL-LC Razorback, 2x TL-AC Dreadnought), allowing you to have two anti-tank units with different focuses that could also lend their firepower in the other area if needed.

 

Just my thoughts on the subject.

While you are correct, I tend to regard transport hunting as a distinct endeavour from tank hunting. You should also consider the AC speeder, the ML/HB Speeder and the LSS+Scouts as options that can neutralise Transports early in the game.

 

And of course there's the Heavy Weapons on Tactical Squads, which are often best employed against light vehicles, as they don't have the sustained rate of fire to seriously threaten genuine tanks.

[thade]

How would one gear out a 5-man scout squad to take down a vehicle with a LSS to deliver it? ML, combi-melta, PF, melta bombs...? Something I'm not considering? Multi-melta on the storm? How is this better than a 3-speeder squadron, all with MM?

[Koremu]

How would one gear out a 5-man scout squad to take down a vehicle with a LSS to deliver it? ML, combi-melta, PF, melta bombs...? Something I'm not considering? Multi-melta on the storm? How is this better than a 3-speeder squadron, all with MM?

4 Scouts with Krak Bombs and a Sergeant with a Power Fist is enough to destroy any vehicle that's lower than AV12 rear more often than not.

 

And how it's better than a triple MM LS squadron is that it is able to do other stuff as well... not least of which are assaulting and scoring.

 

I should have a Land Speeder Storm Tactica written up over the next couple of days. It's taking me a while to finish. I keep thinking up new things to be added.

[greatcrusade08]

4 Scouts with Krak Bombs and a Sergeant with a Power Fist is enough to destroy any vehicle that's lower than AV12 rear more often than not.

 

And how it's better than a triple MM LS squadron is that it is able to do other stuff as well... not least of which are assaulting and scoring.

Id suggest meltabombs over fist, its much cheaper (you can always get a combi-melta if you wanted).. LSS scouts can get first turn charges on stationary vehicles if you get the first turn and get auto hits!

[Koremu]

4 Scouts with Krak Bombs and a Sergeant with a Power Fist is enough to destroy any vehicle that's lower than AV12 rear more often than not.

 

And how it's better than a triple MM LS squadron is that it is able to do other stuff as well... not least of which are assaulting and scoring.

Id suggest meltabombs over fist, its much cheaper (you can always get a combi-melta if you wanted).. LSS scouts can get first turn charges on stationary vehicles if you get the first turn and get auto hits!

Against most vehicles I would rather have 3 Power Fist attacks than 1 Melta Bomb attack, plus again the Power Fist is the more flexible option, as it's good at killing a whole bunch of other stuff too. When it comes down to transport hunting, Power Fists glance on 2s anyway... the sergeant is almost certain to get at least one penetrating hit against AV10 rear vehicles, which is most Dedicated Transports.

 

Melta Bombs are, IMO, really only for Bunker Busting.

 

Combi-Melta can be good, but as only one shot it can fail utterly.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, for the flexable assault scout setup Id say 2 BP+CCW, 2x Shotgun, and the seargent with a PF+C-F. The C-F gives you a nice anti-horde shot, and the PF should be what you need against most vehicles and Monstrous creatures.

 

Unless of course you know your going to see alot of landraiders... then meltabombs are indeed your friends.

[Koremu]

Indeed, for the flexable assault scout setup Id say 2 BP+CCW, 2x Shotgun, and the seargent with a PF+C-F. The C-F gives you a nice anti-horde shot, and the PF should be what you need against most vehicles and Monstrous creatures.

 

Unless of course you know your going to see alot of landraiders... then meltabombs are indeed your friends.

I'm not sold on Meltabombs vs. Land Raiders either, tbh. Hitting on 4s (at best), one attack only. Given that we are discussing a Land Speeder Storm and crew, I'd say that the optimal response for them when facing a Land Raider is to be somewhere else.

 

Land Raiders are basically the canonical target for the aforementioned Multi-Melta Attack Bikes, not the transport-hunting Scout Squad.

[greatcrusade08]

Im not sure i agree with the last few posts... the shrike/assault termy build is the best for everything...

 

Sorry a bit off track there.. ah yes LSS

 

A fist in a five man squad is not a good idea, it cranks up the cost and you only have 4 other 4+save ablative wounds before he gets killed!

My own LSS build is LSS with heavy flamer and scout squad with shotguns, combi-flamer and meltabombs.. The templates make best use of the lower scout BS, and the meltabombs are there just in case..

Whilst i agree that LR's shouldnt be your main targets, sometimes the tabletop gods smile on you..

 

In a recent game, i got first turn, moved LSS to 12" from enemy with scout move, first turn i move forward, scouts get out.

LSS flames enemy scout squad with Telion and the survivors flee off the table, the scouts then charge a vindy and get auto hits and blow it up..

They even survived to have a go at a rhino but only stunned it..

Not bad for a 150 point unit. (including the speeder)

 

Gc08

[minigun762]

Hi all thread go-ers of the TACTICA ASTARTES forum.

I am building my first Loyalist SM army and ive got an idea for my troops base but it doesn't involve any tank popping abilities. Sooo im wondering what i should take to fill this role?

• 
  

Predator with lascannons for some armoured strength 9 goodness and maybe even chronus for the extra bs

• 
  

Dev squad though they can be squishy for the pure ammount of weapons they can field

• 
  

Venerable dread with hunter killer missile, auto cannon and missile launcher or auto cannon and plasma cannon or plasma cannon and missile launcher or... or... whatever

 

I can give you some thoughts from the Chaos side of things.

 

You want to rely on Melta weapons for knocking out AV13/14 and the MM Attack Bikes and Land Speeders work great for that.

HOWEVER there is a whole additional kind of target to think about and thats AV10-12 and MCs. In that category you have almost all transports, walkers and scary winged MCs that tear stuff up.

Melta can work for these, but typically they're fast, or they have multiple wounds, or it puts you close to something that you don't want to be close to. All these targets are best taken out at range, which for my money means you need some long range firepower.

 

From the Loyalist codex, my favorite choices are:

Combi-Predator, AutoCannon/LasCannons

Dreadnought with some mix of Missiles/TL AutoCannons and Plasma Cannons

Dev squads with a mix of Missiles/Plasma Cannons and maybe 1 LasCannon (for BS5)

 

Of all these choices, I like the Combi-Predator the most, 120 points for 3 heavy weapons that reach out to 48". People get worried about S7 not hurting AV14 but they're missing the point, you shouldn't be targeting AV14 with this unit.

[Grey Mage]

Im not sure i agree with the last few posts... the shrike/assault termy build is the best for everything...

Please.... take that against my Eldar so I can watch half your army melt away on turn 2. Please.

[greatcrusade08]

Im not sure i agree with the last few posts... the shrike/assault termy build is the best for everything...

Please.... take that against my Eldar so I can watch half your army melt away on turn 2. Please.

 

:), i would never dream of taking that list!, but i know a man who does ;)

 

Gc08

[Vulcanus]

Nice anti-transport: Dread with 2 twin linked autocannons aka "Dakka dread"

That's 4 s7 shots with re-rolls to hit each turn. And it can move and fire both

[minigun762]

Nice anti-transport: Dread with 2 twin linked autocannons aka "Dakka dread"

That's 4 s7 shots with re-rolls to hit each turn. And it can move and fire both

 

Considering how many armies are mechanized and how almost all standard transports are between AV10-12 (where AutoCannons excel) this is a very good buy.

 

Plus AutoCannosn are great multi-taskers, useful against MEQs, horde, MCs and walkers, so as long as you pack Meltaguns for Land Raiders, you should be fine.