HQ: Daemon Weapons

[grimz]

I was just wondering if anyone regulary uses Daemon weapons, especially Blissgiver and can say how good it is.

 

Its not a 100% fair comparison but basically I'm comparing...

 

HQ: 150

Chaos Lord

-Terminator Armour

-Mark of Slaanesh

-Daemon Weapon (Blissgiver)

 

with

 

HQ: 150

Chaos Sorceror

-Terminator Armour

-Mark of Slaanesh

-Warptime

-Combiweapon

 

 

Perils of the warp vs Daemon weapon rebelling fair comparison?

 

Any other set up's that you like? I was shying away from DP since I'm keen on a Land raider + Terminators to accompany.

 

Edit: Please do not post single point cost for wargear please. Insane Psychopath

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Terminator HQs aren't generally considered that powerful, but thats not the issue here.

 

I'll give you the quick rundown on daemon weapons. You'll probably have to make your own mind up on if you think they are worth it.

 

Undivided - Averages about the same results as double claws vs meqs. Has the advantage of being able to hurt vehicles. Has the disadvantage of being a lot more expensive and having you hurt yourself somtimes.

 

Khorne - Lots of hits when it works, but they are still only strength 4. So its not really that killy unless you are fighting toughness 3 things. Far to risky for real use. You eat your own face so often that it actually averages less kills than lightning claws vs meqs. Stay away from this except for fluff reasons.

 

Tzeentch - Added flexibility of shooting. If you shoot and assault, can out perform lightning claws. But you have 2 chances to risk failure, and can be wounded twice (unlike Khorne). Underperforms if used purely in melee, like if an assault goes to a second phase which happens a lot. Has its uses, but they are more shooty than CC.

 

Nurgle - The only daemon weapon worth using for genral use. Its auto wounding on 4's and re-rolling to wound against some targets lets it outperform claws despite the face eating. Its expensive still of course, and Mark of Nurgle is expensive. With the cost factored in, a lot of people will still prefer claws.

 

Slaanesh - Murders multi wound models, underperforms otherwise. Your enemy needs to have enough multi wound models in their army that you can be sure he gets to fight them. It can make itself worthwhile if you kill and enemy IC with it, but that job is also easily done by powerfists. Where it really shines is countering nob bikers, as they are a really hard list to crack. But even in this situation, you can be better off with a daemon prince.

[grimz]

So something like a warptime daemon prince is usually favoured over melee orientated Term Lord/Sorc?

[the jeske]

yes.

[JamesI]

It is against the rules to include the costs of upgrades, just costs of unit totals.

[chillin]

I like the undivided D. weop. 4+d6 attacks (on charge) at str.5 is pretty good. I give him wings for mobility so he almost always gets charge in and is able to avoid stuff I don't want him stuck in with.

Don't like termi armor, the xtra mobility is way better then a +1 reg armor save, as anything thats going to kill a chaos lord is going to ignor reg armor save anyway.

[Zeller]

I run a TDA w/ Undivided demon weapon. It works. Granted it's better when he's with this TDA bodyguard.

 

I do have a desire to run a PA lord though.

[minigun762]

Undivided - Averages about the same results as double claws vs meqs. Has the advantage of being able to hurt vehicles. Has the disadvantage of being a lot more expensive and having you hurt yourself somtimes.

Its a fair amount more damaging then twin Claws (about 2 kills vs 2.5 kills). The big decision here is do you want to have more killing power and a chance of failure or less killing but more reliable? I consider them to be equivalent.

 

Khorne - Lots of hits when it works, but they are still only strength 4. So its not really that killy unless you are fighting toughness 3 things. Far to risky for real use. You eat your own face so often that it actually averages less kills than lightning claws vs meqs. Stay away from this except for fluff reasons.

Agreed, its not a competitive choice. I know this would be too frusturating for me to play with.

 

Tzeentch - Added flexibility of shooting. If you shoot and assault, can out perform lightning claws. But you have 2 chances to risk failure, and can be wounded twice (unlike Khorne). Underperforms if used purely in melee, like if an assault goes to a second phase which happens a lot. Has its uses, but they are more shooty than CC.

If you put this on the right platform, it becomes interesting. Give the unit Wings or Tzeentch Steed and zoom around providing dakka and assaulting. Its also not bad with Terminator armor and you're deepstriking in (providing dakka when you land).

 

Nurgle - The only daemon weapon worth using for genral use. Its auto wounding on 4's and re-rolling to wound against some targets lets it outperform claws despite the face eating. Its expensive still of course, and Mark of Nurgle is expensive. With the cost factored in, a lot of people will still prefer claws.

The best DW I'd say. It also gives you some chance if you run up against a MC (but don't go MC hunting with it). Expensive considering the mark but most killy.

 

Slaanesh - Murders multi wound models, underperforms otherwise. Your enemy needs to have enough multi wound models in their army that you can be sure he gets to fight them. It can make itself worthwhile if you kill and enemy IC with it, but that job is also easily done by powerfists. Where it really shines is countering nob bikers, as they are a really hard list to crack. But even in this situation, you can be better off with a daemon prince.

I prefer a Blissgiver to the Warptime/Force Weapon combo of Tzeentch Sorcerers. The main drawback here is that alot of units have Eternal Warrior built in. One thing to consider though is you'll be striking at I6, so it can be a scary unit for the opponent with the ability to insta-kill their HQs before they can strike.

 

For my money, I'd say it goes like this (factoring in the cost/benefit of the mark as well)

Undivided/Nurgle weapon = tied

Slaaneshi weapon = 2

Tzeentch weapon = 3

Khorne weapon = 4

[Redbaron997]

I like Undivided the best.

 

I am usually not a Nurgle army user, but if I was I would jump on the DW in a heatbeat.

 

Slaanesh can be great, but you gotta get the most outa that ID for it to win.

 

If I go Khorne I go Twin Claws.

 

If I go Tzeentch I go with a Sorcerer.

 

 

 

BUT the problem isnt that our HQs are bad, just that DPs are so much better! And Chaos is all about "Go big or dont go at all!"

[chillin]

I look at undivided D. weop vs. twin claws like this:

if you roll a 1 for the D. weop attacks, obviously the twin claws are huge amount better

if you roll a 2 or 3, D. weop is @ same as twin claws

if roll 4 or 5, D. weop is better

if roll a 6, D. weop is way better

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Claws: 4 Attacks, 2.66 hits, 2 wounds. Over 6 Phases, thats 12 wounds.

 

Undivided Daemon Weapon factored over 6 phases assuming 1 of each result: 36 Attacks total. 24 hits, 16 wounds, and 1 wound to yourself.

 

So yeah, Undivided does win over claws but hurts yourself in the progess. I was thinking of the numbers for claws with MoK in my original post, which brings claws to 15 wounds.

[grimz]

Thanks for the replies, my inital idea was high initiative insta-death to kill off enemy IC's and Nob Bikerz.

 

With the DP not being able to be part of a squad mean that he just gets gunned down fast? Where with Termy HQ can you put them in a squad as to help mitigate the damage to them.

[minigun762]

So yeah, Undivided does win over claws but hurts yourself in the progess. I was thinking of the numbers for claws with MoK in my original post, which brings claws to 15 wounds.

 

Yeah Khorne Claws = Undivided Daemon Weapon and surprisingingly a Warptime Sorcerer is also just about the same, all of which average around 3 MEQ kills on the charge.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Thanks for the replies, my inital idea was high initiative insta-death to kill off enemy IC's and Nob Bikerz.

 

With the DP not being able to be part of a squad mean that he just gets gunned down fast? Where with Termy HQ can you put them in a squad as to help mitigate the damage to them.

 

If you are looking for an IC and Nob killer then it should work out just fine. But you may still want to consider power armor and wings instead of terminator.

 

And yes, the DP is more vulnerable to being shot.

[grimz]

Yeah, DPs are just solid all around it seems, and having your enemy gun them down might not be so bad as to take the heat off your other troops.

 

I think I might try to tweak a list DP as HQ, and still field some terminators

[Redbaron997]

Yes the DP can be shoot at easily, but that is the brilliant part of it!

 

For a cool 150ish points you do have a scary flying MC that can be a serious threat to anything. BUT! If they are shooting at it that means they are ignoring the Rhinos full of CSMs (The REAL threat)

 

Heck when people shoot at my DPs I wanna lean over the table and thank them!

[grimz]

I'll have a look around for some more DP info, but is it just better to get lash over warptime??

 

I've been orginally looking at a World Eaters kinda army, but after tagging along to my friends gaming club I'm keen to make a more serious competitive army.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Lash vs Warptime depends on the list, and how competitive you want to be. Lash will be considered cheesy by many players outside a tournament or very competitive gaming group. Warptime will not.

 

It is also a difference of role. Warptime just makes you kill better. Lash gives more tactical/strategic advantages. There is lots of info on both scattered around.

[Redbaron997]

I'll have a look around for some more DP info, but is it just better to get lash over warptime??

 

I've been orginally looking at a World Eaters kinda army, but after tagging along to my friends gaming club I'm keen to make a more serious competitive army.

 

Make what you wanna make, your gonna spend HOURS! and HOURS! making and painting these guys, so do it how you want.

 

Try not to make it TO unfluffy though (Lash Prince with World Eaters army = Facepalm)

 

That being say a World Eaters army can be quiet competitive.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Nothing wrong with wings+ MoK on a DP either.

[SamaNagol]

I am very much erring towards:

 

Sorceror

MoS

Warptime

Force Weapon

 

for 130pts which is the same as plain Lord with Vanilla Daemon Weapon.

 

I6, re-rolls to hit and wound and Instant Death is pretty nice. You also get a bonus attack for 2 weapons. Then I can commit sacrilege and put him with a unit of Berzerkers :) He will be modelled as a Lieutenant with a 'Rune Blade' and Combat Shield (5+inv) though.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I am very much erring towards:

 

Sorceror

MoS

Warptime

Force Weapon

 

for 130pts which is the same as plain Lord with Vanilla Daemon Weapon.

 

I6, re-rolls to hit and wound and Instant Death is pretty nice. You also get a bonus attack for 2 weapons. Then I can commit sacrilege and put him with a unit of Berzerkers :) He will be modelled as a Lieutenant with a 'Rune Blade' and Combat Shield (5+inv) though.

 

This only works with a tzeentch sorcerer because you can only make 1 psychic test per turn. So if you cast warptime, you cannot then use your force weapon. If you are Tzeentch, then you may use 2 per turn so that solves this.

[SamaNagol]

Ah what an elementary mistake

[grimz]

Ah damn thats what I was thinking too

[Vlâdvar The Destroyer]

a few points of my own here:

 

Sorcerer Pros:

 

- your more likley to roll a 1 on daemon Weapons then an 11 or 12 on force wepaons

- Sorcerer with MoT & warp time is very handy, also if ya give him a familiar & bolt of Tzeentch which means when his too far away from combat he could possibly blow up a tank or take out a character

 

Lord Pros

 

- lords are fearless, where as Sorcerers ain't

- lords have a higher weapon skill

- lords have a wider choice of weapons