Bike Sergeant Issue

[waaanial00]

Ok I am pretty slow sometimes.

 

Its a fact that I am fairly proud of because it allows me to think about things others have discounted and really rock the boat when I can get something to work that others have poo poed as weak or useless.

 

As such I am discovering Bikes as Troops. Ok so I am aware that many have come (and gone) before me on this so why post?

 

Well when I was modelling my Sergeant I had a bit of a dilema. See I have the sergeant with the power weapon ready to go but fancied a hard hitting Power Fist. I began thinking about the usual things you lose when you go Power fist such as Initiative and extra attack. It was then I discovered that there is no extra attack!!!

 

Horrified was I to see that I would have to exchange my prescious Bolt pistol for that power weapon and therefore could not claim the extra swing for having two H2H weapons.

 

Am I being ultra slow on this or have others seen this as well?

 

Wan

[Hellios]

Thats what you get for not being Ravenwing eliteness... Yes Ravenwing sgts are better than white scar sgts :P

[greatcrusade08]

Command squad bikers are the exception as they keep thier wargear when they upgrade to bikers... they still get 2 ccws.

 

GC08

[Giga]

Why would you wanna put a power sword on a bike sergeant anyway? Bikes aren't a really good close combat unit (they're more resilient then tacticals, but are otherwise about the same, which means they're crap in CC), so you need to give them all the punch you can, just in case they get charged by something big and nasty sometime. In other words, give that sergeant a power fist. :(

[greatcrusade08]

Why would you wanna put a power sword on a bike sergeant anyway? Bikes aren't a really good close combat unit (they're more resilient then tacticals, but are otherwise about the same, which means they're crap in CC), so you need to give them all the punch you can, just in case they get charged by something big and nasty sometime. In other words, give that sergeant a power fist. :(

 

Bikers are T5 which makes them very resilient against most infantry in CC, generally i only worry if the enemy is packing a fist.. this high toughness balances out the lower number of atatcks the bikers get and normally means you can still win combat.

 

Gc08

[Giga]

Why would you wanna put a power sword on a bike sergeant anyway? Bikes aren't a really good close combat unit (they're more resilient then tacticals, but are otherwise about the same, which means they're crap in CC), so you need to give them all the punch you can, just in case they get charged by something big and nasty sometime. In other words, give that sergeant a power fist. :)

 

Bikers are T5 which makes them very resilient against most infantry in CC, generally i only worry if the enemy is packing a fist.. this high toughness balances out the lower number of atatcks the bikers get and normally means you can still win combat.

 

Gc08

The problem with bikers is they usually get shot before they get into close combat, so probably at least some of them die. This means the number of attacks you can throw at an opponent becomes much smaller. The bikers will take less casualties in close combat then tacticals will, but still I haven't seen them kill much stuff on their own. The only guys in my biker squads that regularly kill stuff are the power fist sergeant and the relic blade bike captain that usually accompanies the squad.

[greatcrusade08]

I guess all our experiences differ, but with an effective 18" assault range (12 move 6 assault) you shoudl be able to avoid alot of massed firepower.

Infact my own scout bikers usually perform very well for me, perhaps your opponents fear bikers more than normal..

 

Gc08

[Giga]

I guess all our experiences differ, but with an effective 18" assault range (12 move 6 assault) you shoudl be able to avoid alot of massed firepower.

Infact my own scout bikers usually perform very well for me, perhaps your opponents fear bikers more than normal..

 

Gc08

Scout bikers can infiltrate, no? This might be the cause of them not getting shot, since scout move allows them to assault first turn.

 

Depending on deployment and mission type, my opponents usually get at least one turn to shoot at my bikers. If I'm the beatdown (to use silent requiem's terminology), I usually deploy my biker+captain unit on the board and turbo-boost towards the opponent first turn, in hopes of shooting+assaulting in turn 2. Which means the bikers end up having to wither some enemy fire. If I'm control, I can sometimes avoid getting shot at by keeping the captain+bikers in reserve, so by the time they arrive the enemy will usually be within 18" of my board edge, allowing me to shoot + assault in the same turn.

 

Either way, while bikers are resilient in close combat, I'd never really rely on regular bikers to kill something (even if full 9 men squad gets to close combat, that's 19 ws4 str4 attacks on the charge, and then providing they all survived only 10 attacks in the following assault phase), hence I rely on the serge's powerfist and the captain's relic blade (and the pre-assault shooting) to deal the pain. A power sword on bike sergeant only gets 2 attacks base, and 3 attacks on the charge, which makes it a pretty terrible option, IMO.

 

EDIT: powerfist serge also allows me to take out big gribblies in a single turn. 3 melta shots into the big bug + charge with the powerfist has been the death of many a carnifex. <_<

[ShinyRhino]

Yes, I noticed that too. I had to look it up in my last tourney to make sure I didn't cheat the Blood Angels player I charged against. I go with the power weapon purely for insurance. I'd rather get a couple whacks in each turn that will killsomething, rather than being tarpitted by a MEQ unit forever. At least with the power weapon, you're slowly chopping your way out.

 

As for the viability of bikers in close combat...it's really a matter of choosing your target well. As mentioned, the biker unit has an 18" assault range. You can also fire all your bolters at max range (twin-linked, too!) before you charge in. it's not a huge amount of firepower, but every little bit helps. It works wonders against Tau and IG squads. Stay at that 18" range, and the amount of fire coming at you isn't so bad. The T5 helps a LOT when facing down incoming fire, as well as once you get stuck in. A 5-man biker squad can put some major hurt on a squishy IG unit due to better Initiative and Toughness. Even if the IG have a power weapon in the squad, they need the 4+ to hit, and then have to wound on T5.

 

The lack of a bolt pistol ont he sergeant ends up being the price we pay for an 18" charging Relentless unit with T5.

[Resv]

I see people around often saying that bikes are no good at Close Combat. It is then that I wonder, "Have these people ever played with/against a full strength bike squad?" I run two full strength Bike Squads in my current build. Thats 8 Bikes, 2 Meltas/Flamers or a mix, and an Attack Bike w/ MM more often than not. The Sargent is outfitted with a Power Fist or Power Weapon depending on the role of the squad. Here is the thing, you get TWO special weapons and a heavy weapon that are all Relentless. That means HUGE amounts of fire AND the possibility to deliver an assault. This combined with their movement makes them MUCH MORE dangerous than standard Tactical Marines AND Assault Marines. Tactical Marines can Rapid Fire, true enough. But to make an assault AND shoot them are relegated to pistols and assault weapons, of which they only have one of. That heavy weapon is useless I hate to say. Assault troops, which I admit have better movement with jumping and more attacks in cc, lack a real shooting punch. They do have two special weapons, which if not assault weapons defeats the purpose, but lack heavy weapons and are stuck with pistols (which can't re-roll hits).

 

Bikes are the amazing mix of the two units with awesome sauce on the side. They move like Jump Troops, and ignore difficult terrain. They shoot BETTER than Tacticals and Assault Troops with more special weapons, a heavy weapon that can fire on the move, and twin-linking. And they can assault better than Tacticals due to their higher toughness, which with STR3 units means a roll to wound of 6+.

 

Now here is where things get fun!

 

You have a 12" move and a 6" assault so 18" total movement. Keep your bikes in Cover when ever possible. With 25% cover, which we play at my club and store, this isn't really that hard. Get your movement in, and here is where a full squad has some benefit, unload with your Twin-Linked Bolters, special weapons, and your heavy weapon just like normal. With re-rolls to hit and rapid fire you can put out so very many wounds which I think we can all agree upon. Even MEQ will take a number losses even just from Meltas and such. Soften up your target! Shoot the hell out of them! Force as many saves as your can. Depending on your success in the shooting phase your assault phase could go over incredibly well. If you do win combat and kill all of the opposing unit you then get MORE movement which Marine Bikers just LOVE. This movement is also unencumbered by Difficult Terrain and is perfect for getting your bikes out of the way and into cover. IF you don;t kill off so many of the opposing unit then enjoy the safety of CC until the next assault phase. REMEMBER, always take your consolidation move. I see people at my local store always forget this! D6 more inches in free movement is pure gold.

 

The true benefit to Marine Bikers in assault, and why I love them in assault, is how they get there. Bikes are Dangerous in both combat phases. This is in stark contrast to other units we have that are lacking it one combat phase or the other.

 

Oh yeah, they also count as scoring with a Bike Captain, which is just an AWESOME HQ choice in the current codex.

[waaanial00]

My plan is to make a melta heavy large bike squad, then arm the Sergeant with a Power Fist. The fact that you dont miss out on an additional attack because of conflicting CC weapons just makes that choice clearer, added with the fact that T5 does make a lot of difference in the highly MEQ area I currently game in (just think about how damn hard those Plague marines are to wound and you will see my reasoning).

 

Whilst I dont doubt that they are decent in CC, from a toughness and shooting in point of view, I am not expecting them to get into CC. The power fist is there for extra tank hunting or the Coup d'Grace for severely weakened units. I am hoping that they will add a lot of flexibility to my marine force which becomes bogged down adn engaged in static actions quite a bit. Their ability to kite the enemy and change speed/direction rapidly means that I might even be able to lure in future games (something which I have not been able to do since I semi retired my Assault Squad)

 

I think they give a tactical flare to an otherwise slow and steady beast. In terms of tempo changing I cant think of many other units in our dex which can do it better.

 

Wan

[Giga]

If you wanna make a dedicated tank-hunting bike unit, you might wanna consider also giving a combimelta to the sergeant.

 

It's expensive, but that's 4 melta shots at 12". Almost guaranteed to take down any tank.

[ShinyRhino]

They move like Jump Troops, and ignore difficult terrain.

 

Where are you getting this from? They have an equivalent move DISTANCE as Jump Troops, but sure as heck do NOT ignore difficult terrain. They take Dangerous Terrain tests every time they move in difficult terrain. Since you have to roll for each model type in a unit, you can blow a couple rolls and crash your sergeant, special weapons or attack bike right out of the game.

[greatcrusade08]

If you wanna make a dedicated tank-hunting bike unit, you might wanna consider also giving a combimelta to the sergeant.

 

It's expensive, but that's 4 melta shots at 12". Almost guaranteed to take down any tank.

 

Or forget turning 200-300 points of troops into tank hunters and just take 3 MM attack bikes

 

GC08

[Resv]

They move like Jump Troops, and ignore difficult terrain.

 

Where are you getting this from? They have an equivalent move DISTANCE as Jump Troops, but sure as heck do NOT ignore difficult terrain. They take Dangerous Terrain tests every time they move in difficult terrain. Since you have to roll for each model type in a unit, you can blow a couple rolls and crash your sergeant, special weapons or attack bike right out of the game.

 

My point is that Bikes are now SLOWED by difficult terrain, so like Jump Troops they retain their full movement. So they ignore the slowing effects of difficult terrain. Sorry I can clear that up in my post. Which reminds me I forgot to talk about Turbo Boosting.

 

I must have way better luck on my rolls than most averages as I have lost maybe 3 or 4 in my last 8 games. This again can be handled by just rolling 9 dice and then assigning who takes the hit, not a fan of this but I have seen people get away with it. Yes you run the chance to lose a unit or two BUT I have been able to do some amazing things with this. My favorite moment in any 40K game I have ever played was during a Tournament game at my local store. We were playing for objectives with 3 on the board and on the 5th turn I took my two bike units and ran them THOUGH A BUILDING with turbo boost and challenged both of my opponents objectives and got a killer cover save in the process. I came in second and also won the Devious Jerk award in the tourney.

[Warp Angel]

The problem with bikers is they usually get shot before they get into close combat, so probably at least some of them die. This means the number of attacks you can throw at an opponent becomes much smaller. The bikers will take less casualties in close combat then tacticals will, but still I haven't seen them kill much stuff on their own. The only guys in my biker squads that regularly kill stuff are the power fist sergeant and the relic blade bike captain that usually accompanies the squad.

 

I don't charge my bikes into H2H against all but small remnant squads or guard without my trusty captain/bike/relic blade/hellfire add on.

 

Captain/Bike/Relic Blade/Hellfire Rounds - Never leave home without it.

[Warp Angel]

To be completely fair, you can't totally rely on bikes.

 

They can't occupy buildings, and they can't climb levels in ruins. You lose 1/6 of them to dangerous terrain over a lifetime of games, and any area terrain is difficult terrain for the most part. You also can't turbo-boost through difficult/dangerous.

 

They do have a larger footprint, which makes it harder for the squad to get cover by being 50% obscured, though protects them from templates to some extent.

 

Although, when compared to assault squads they:

 

1) Have far greater "killing" firepower - 2 specials, 1 heavy vs. 2 flamers or plasma pistols

2) Have much better "basic" firepower - 9 twin linked bolters vs. 10 bolt pistols.

3) Move just as fast in most situations

4) Are capable of moving faster

5) Are more durable (T5), with better wound allocation potential (attack bike soaks up a single S7 or less AP3 or better hit without costing you a thing)

6) Can be troops choices when you utilize a very potent HQ choice

 

Combined shooting + assault results (assuming bolt pistols and heavy weapon - special weapons would be a wash if we assume flamers. If we assume melta guns they are far better than bolt pistols or plasma pistols at charge range. Plasma guns are usually better than plasma pistols, though you risk more overheat wounds, so we'll call it a wash)

 

18 bolter shots - hitting 12, wounding 6, killing 2 for bikes vs. 10 bolt pistol shots, hitting 7, wounding 4, killing 1 (first two numbers rounded up, last rounded down) Add the multi melta - getting another 60% of a wound in for the attack bikes, and bikes win shooting 3-1.

 

In hand to hand, the assault marines get 27 non-sergeant attacks (sergants we'll call a wash, most of the time, since a PF actually outperforms a PW/CCW against most opponents), and the bikes get 17. Against MEQ, that's assault marines that's three dead and the bikes get two. The bikes are averaging 5 dead to the assault marines 4.

 

And the bikes lose fewer models to enemy return attacks AND have fewer enemies to attack them, so you usually wash on the number you win combat by, but against enemies with multiple attacks or elite armor, the bikes fare much better in combat result.

 

The lesson to all of the above? Use bikes to shoot and to charge things that they can eliminate or break in your player turn. Keep them out of combat otherwise. Assault marines serve a different purpose, and have capabilities that bikes can never have when it comes to CONTESTING objectives. They are also somewhat cheaper for a full squad.

 

I personally take bikes over assault marines the vast majority of the time.

[Giga]

Or forget turning 200-300 points of troops into tank hunters and just take 3 MM attack bikes

Well, in my bike captain lists I usually have only one bike squad, and that one a big beefed up squad. I find that giving them a powerfist, two meltaguns, and a multimelta attack bike gives them great utility as both infantry, MEQ, and vehicle killers (at my LGS, everyone is mech, and you can never have too much anti-vehicle). I don't like plasmaguns on my bikes, as I hate the idea of potentially losing ~40 points worth of a model to gets hot!, and I don't like particularly like bikers with flamers, either - I find I never get enough wounds on the opponent to make it worth it.

I don't charge my bikes into H2H against all but small remnant squads or guard without my trusty captain/bike/relic blade/hellfire add on.

Well, some situations the best thing you can do is send them into H2H, even when it's not a favorable matchup for them.

 

For example, the other day I had to charge a 9 men unit of chaos marines. Thanks to a combination of bad rolling and opponent's cover saves, I ended up having to use my bikers meltaguns to destroy the rhino the CSM were being transported in (the plan was to blow up the rhino with speeders, shoot the freshly disembarked CSM with the bikers, and then assault to clean up the remnants). At this point I could either stay there and let my bikes get shot in the following turn by his army, or I could charge into close combat. Hence I charge into close combat and end up winning and sweeping thanks to the powerfist sergeant (the csm didn't have a power fist, but being CSM they have base 2 attacks).

 

Likewise, another day I shot like 10 melta and lascannon shots into a beefed up combat carnifex over the course of 2 turns. And yet it managed to reach my bikers with one wound left, and charge them. Guess what took its last wound.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes, the circumstances (be it generalship or dice) just force you to assault even when the matchup isn't optimal, or your bike captain is busy somewhere else killing something else. This is when the power fist comes really handy, and why I think it should always be present in biker units.

[waaanial00]

Giga kind of summed up how I am going to be using my bikes, the Power Fist is a regular choice for my Sergeants simply because it does quite a bit of damage. The only reason I was thinking power weapon in this case would have been the upped surviability of the bikes themselves and the extra attack. Take one of those away and its an extra 10 points for the power fist every time.

 

I like to keep my options open for units and I think the TL bolters add sufficient anti infantry to put in a number of melta weapons. Regardless though I dont want to put a combi melta on there as the power fist is more all rounder and 3 Melta weapons will likely kill the sorts of targets I am gunning for.

 

@Shiny Rhino - I have been playing generate Dangerous Terrain affects then allocate to the squad. Should I be doing it the other way round? I have not been playing bikes for a while and no one has either noticed or cared that I have been doing it this way. I assume that this is well worded in the rulebook :tu:

[ShinyRhino]

@Shiny Rhino - I have been playing generate Dangerous Terrain affects then allocate to the squad. Should I be doing it the other way round? I have not been playing bikes for a while and no one has either noticed or cared that I have been doing it this way. I assume that this is well worded in the rulebook :D

 

I don't have the rulebook with me here at work, but I believe it says "each model" in the rule. So, if you have a five-man bike squad, and only three enter the difficult terrain, only those three take tests, and only those three are eligible to be removed because of the "Each model" part. That's how I've run it, though I might be wrong. When I run an 8-man biker unit, I tend to have the sergeant, two meltaguns, five bikers, and an attack bike. I roll the test for the sergeant, then two dice for the meltagunners, then five for the bikes, and one for the attack bike, removing as many casualties from each group as failed rolls.

[Koremu]

@Shiny Rhino - I have been playing generate Dangerous Terrain affects then allocate to the squad. Should I be doing it the other way round? I have not been playing bikes for a while and no one has either noticed or cared that I have been doing it this way. I assume that this is well worded in the rulebook :D

 

I don't have the rulebook with me here at work, but I believe it says "each model" in the rule. So, if you have a five-man bike squad, and only three enter the difficult terrain, only those three take tests, and only those three are eligible to be removed because of the "Each model" part. That's how I've run it, though I might be wrong. When I run an 8-man biker unit, I tend to have the sergeant, two meltaguns, five bikers, and an attack bike. I roll the test for the sergeant, then two dice for the meltagunners, then five for the bikes, and one for the attack bike, removing as many casualties from each group as failed rolls.

It says;

 

"Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through dangerous terrain during its move. On the roll of a 1, the model suffers a wound, with no armour or cover saves allowed." p14, BRB

[Resv]

With this rule I just roll one D6 over and over again pointing out which unit I am rolling for. If we are in a time crunch I roll how ever many D6 at the same time then allocate ONLY if my opponent agrees to it.