Me vs Nidzilla (given what I have to work with)

[thade]

Here is my list:

 

2x Tac Squad (10-man, PF, Flamer, ML) (I have one spare lascannon I can sub in.)

1x Scout Squad (5-man, snipers) (I have a Counts As Telion and a scout with a ML I can sub in.)

 

Vanguard (Air): (7-man, I never use them all at once) 2xPF, 2xLit Claws, 1TH, 4 SS...Note that the lit claw guy can easily Count As Shrike

2x Assault Squad (10-man, PF, 2x Flamer)

 

MM/SB Dread

Assault Cannon/HF Dread

Techmarine

 

5 vanilla terminators (AoBR)

 

A whirlwind (which can easily sub in as a rhino)

 

A Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader (almost finished painting it, hasn't yet been tabled).

 

HQs: AoBR Captain, Jump Chaplain, Librarian, Vulkan

 

I'm all spent out cashwise, so I have the army I have and that's it for now. In the coming weeks I will likely be throwing down with Eldar and Imperial Guard, and I'm confident I can match those lists (they are mech-light, troop heavy, like mine) but Nidzilla has me thinking. I've never seen the Nids codex, but I'm not sure sure one of my assault squads would stand up toe-to-toe with a monster...which relegates them to using their pistols and keeping distance (hopefully on higher terrain). My vanguard would I think only really be useful in mopping up whatever puny troop units they field, leaving my dreads and tac squads to do most of the legwork. It occurs to me that my snipers will be very effective (I'm pretty sure Nids are based on toughness and not "walking vehicles" as dreads are), so it's too bad I only have five of them.

 

That's all I've really nailed out so far. Here I am looking for criticisms and advice, as always. ^_^

 

EDIT: Note that the list above is a list of every model I have that I can field...it is not a table-legal list (for instance, I can't field the tech marine, both dreads, and the termies, as you know).

[ShinyRhino]

Here's how each unit in your army will stack up against Carnifexen and Hive Trants (the core of a Nidzilla list, IMO)...

 

2x Tac Squad (10-man, PF, Flamer, ML) (I have one spare lascannon I can sub in.)

 

Keep distance and fire out the krak missiles at the big ones. They'll wound reliably, but only the lascannon will deny an armor save, IIRC. You'll always attack first with your non-PF marines in melee, but will need 6s to wound.

 

1x Scout Squad (5-man, snipers) (I have a Counts As Telion and a scout with a ML I can sub in.)

 

Snipers don't hit a lot, but have better chances to wound than bolters against Big Bugs. If you put the Telion in, put the ML in too, as Telion's gun can't do jack to a Big Bug. Use his Voice of Experience to give his BS6 to the missile launcher man.

 

Vanguard (Air): (7-man, I never use them all at once) 2xPF, 2xLit Claws, 1TH, 4 SS...Note that the lit claw guy can easily Count As Shrike

 

The initiative of your claws will make you get first strike in, but you still need 6s to wound. The Hammers and Fists strike at I1, but have better chances to wound. The Big Bug will likely take you apart in melee before you can swing those. Especially with all the biomorph options they have.

 

2x Assault Squad (10-man, PF, 2x Flamer)

 

Better used on the gribblies than the Big Bugs. Flamers will only get one S4 hit on a Big Bug. Better used against the babies. Fist can hurt the Big Bug, but you'll take some heavy casualties with the rest of the squad.

 

MM/SB Dread

Assault Cannon/HF Dread

 

Keep yur Dreads away from the Big Bugs. Monstrous Creatures get 2d6 parmor penetration rolls on the Dreads, and will SHRED you in melee.

 

Techmarine

 

Attach this guy with a servo harness to a tactical squad, and fire out all his plasma at anything large in range. He's got some nice powerfist attacks on the charge, but can be singled out in combat (independent character). His 2+ armor save won't help him against Fexen due to counts-as power weapon hits.

 

5 vanilla terminators (AoBR)

 

The fists are slow. You can get lucky with your 5+ invulnerables, but probably not THAT lucky when the Big Bugs have so many attacks.

 

A whirlwind (which can easily sub in as a rhino)

 

Trash against Big Bugs. better used to slam the babies.

 

A Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader (almost finished painting it, hasn't yet been tabled).

 

Big Bugs hurt vehicles, badly. But, if you keep your distance, the volume of fire from the Crusader can land some wounds on a Big Bug. Really better used to tank shock babies off an objective, or just putting the hurt on them in general.

 

HQs: AoBR Captain, Jump Chaplain, Librarian, Vulkan

 

A captain won't do much for you against Big Bugs, unless you give him a relic blade. The S6 hits will wound on 4s, and at Inititiative of 5. Good for putting some early wounds on the bug. Unlikely to kill it outright before it gets hits in, though. Attach him to another squad.

 

The chappy gives you rerolls on a charge, but won't cause wounds reliably due to Str4.

 

Libby is largely useless in melee. Too few attacks, and his Force Weapon can't instakill Bugs. Good for gating threatened units away from charge range though.

 

Vulkan has a really nice Invulnerable save, and a relic blade. His heavy flamer won't do a ton to a Big Bug, but is firable before a charge.

[Ming]

I'm with Shiny on this. Use the AOBR captain as having a relic blade and digital weapons. Makes him S6.

 

A librarian with Gate and the AP3 template or Assault 4 AP2 spells is a good match. You couuld gate him around with the terminators to wipe out isolated fex's. If you do not need to gate, give him MOH instead, again to make him stronger at I4.

 

Concentrate your fire, to go after one big bug at a time per turn. Kill the shooty fex's first.

 

You are more likely to see lists with 3 fex's and a tyrant leader with bodyguards, then tons of little babies and purple teanagers.

 

Be wary of outflanking teenagers. If he has em' deploy your forces 20 inches in from the side board edges.

 

Vanguard is best in reserve OR as a countercharger. Sweeper. As are your regular assault troops.

 

If you have the fex's under control, kill the "troops" in all objective based games. As they say, you only need one objective for a win. Regardless, the whirlwind is all about smacking down his babies or teenagers if they are just lurking at objectives in big clumps.

[yodaid764]

For your HQ I suggest either Vulkan or ABR CPT.

Vulkan is a good solid choice as his relice weapon will wound big bugs easier and his heavy flamer will allow you to seriously hurt any large groups of small bugs running around, or those large eldar/guard formations you mentioned too. His abilities help any flamers you have (which does not seem to be many and you dont seem to have any MM).

Now, the ABR CPT gives you alot more flexibility. His sword could be a relic blade which again makes it easier to hurt any big bug you fight in CC without losing initiative. Plus, if you give him digital weapons it helps re roll a failed wound roll which could be life or death. Since the model does have a bolter give him hellfire bolts which wound on a 2+. Hell, the description in the Codex specifically mentions the rounds were designed for bugs! Say his bolter is a storm bolter which is an assualt 2 weapon. Those 2 shots wounding on 2+ with hellfire bolts well help make short work of big bigs by reducing the number of wounds you need to get in CC.

 

Mind you, I have not played against bugs since 3rd ed, but from what I read on this board they are nastier than before. Hopefully something we tell you will help.

[ShinyRhino]

Since the model does have a bolter give him hellfire bolts which wound on a 2+. Hell, the description in the Codex specifically mentions the rounds were designed for bugs! Say his bolter is a storm bolter which is an assualt 2 weapon. Those 2 shots wounding on 2+ with hellfire bolts well help make short work of big bigs by reducing the number of wounds you need to get in CC.

 

Unfortunately, you cannot use Hellfire rounds in a Stormbolter or Bolt Pistol. They can only be used with a combi-bolter or regular bolter. But they're still a good idea.

[Deathwing]

5 vanilla terminators (AoBR)

 

The fists are slow. You can get lucky with your 5+ invulnerables, but probably not THAT lucky when the Big Bugs have so many attacks.

 

 

Terminators are actually quite decent at fighting carnifexes. If he has cheap carnifexes (i.e. the dakka fexes) they will have I1 so attack at the same time as your terminators. Also carnifexes have base 2 attacks and at most 4 and they have WS3 base at most WS4. Mind you a dakka fex does have 8 shots that are twin-linked and living ammo (re-roll to wound) so getting all 5 terminators into combat with a single fex might be hard (though nothing in the tyranid arsenal penetrates terminator armour at range except the super warp blast).

 

Terminators will suffer if they have to fight Hive Tyrants though or if they have to fight more than one fex at a time (2 dakkafexes they might be able to take in close combat)

 

If you have the time to convert, or your opponent lets you proxy, use Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield terminators to fight his big bugs. At the very least try to convert one of the terminators to a cyclone (easy conversion, just need a box and some toothpicks) or assault cannon.

[Primarch Naogedd]

While this is all well and good, the nastiest (IMO) kinds of Nidzilla lists are the shooty ones. They generally come with a Winged Hive Tyrant, one on foot (often with Tyrant Guard) as well as about 4 Fexes, of the Sniper and Boom variety. That means that your opponent will be tossing out 2 S8 Pinning Large Blast templates at 36" as well as 4 S10 BS3 shots, plus the flying Tyrant which will be dishing out another 6 S5 BS4 rerolltastic shots. They'll be parked in whatever cover they can find, firing away, and they'll smash anything up to TH/SS Termies in CC, and those will be the first targets.

 

I'd say your best bet against that sort of list is try and proxy/armswap some TH/SS Termies, using your LC guy as Shrike, and using a Land Raider to run them up just a couple of inches out of 12", and then running, fleeting and charging a Fex allowing you to cut him apart while keeping your Raider out of charge range. Of course that relies upon your ability to keep the Raider out of CC with the Flying Tyrant, but worth a try.

[waaanial00]

A few things just to further worry people out there. The maximum attacks a Carnifex can have is actually 9 (D6 attacks + 1 for scything talons + 2 for charging if it has tusks), they have to pay quite a lot of points for it but didnt want someone to call cheat if they get steamrolled by this beast. Of course this nasty is completely CC and will do nothing but run at you.

 

The basic armour of Big bugs is actually 3+, they have to pay additional points for 2+ which is why the first thing you ask a nid player is which units have "extended carapace", it basically is +1 Sv so on a big bug you are getting the 2+. If they are running cheap to get the numbers then your Missile Launchers and other AP3 (Vengance rounds :)) Are back in the game!

 

I am not suggesting that TH/SS Terminators are bad. I make this point very bold and obvious so that people dont bother to rush to their defence ;) However I would not take them without taking a shed load of AP2 weapons anyway, they are not an excuse to avoid taking these better weapons! Why might you ask? Well think on it this way.

 

How many units can TH/SS Terminators realistically kill per turn? 1 unless your nid opponent is crazy or stupid.

So given that knowledge what is the maximum number of Big bugs it can kill in the minimum game length? 5.

Will it be killing on the first turn? No not usually which brings the number down to 4.

Can you count on it killing a unit every turn? Not really as a combat might last more than 1 game turn or you might have to move between combats?

 

Given this I would only count on the termies killing on average 2-3 units a game MAXIMUM! You are facing at least 5 big bugs in a Nidzilla list. Do you really want to place all your hopes on a unit which can only kill 1/2 of the enemies major combat assets over the course of a given game? Remember that 2+ and 3++ on termintors is still only single fail and you are dead, once you roll that 1 thats 1 less of your usual 5 down and that means more likelyhood of taking longer to kill the next target. CC Big Bugs arent exactly slouches in combat and the carnifex has a Strength of 9 and can hit you on 3's (upgrade to up its WS to 4 and one which effectively lowers yours to WS3) even with the ever unpredictable results of Mathammer it isnt exactly a zero casualty and thats assuming that they dont take casualties on the way in.

 

Just a warning in case people read this and think people are suggesting that TH/SS Terminators are the only answer to such threats and they can be relied upon to carry the day. They cant! They can be relied upon to kill and absorb wounds but not kill the entire army. Again I am not looking for a fight I have said big and bold that Terminators are good, just noone ever seems to argue fully the counter point of including them and they keep gaining a sort of unbeatable reputation which in some respects is vastly over blown.

 

/rant

 

Wan

[thade]

I (somewhat sheepishly) decided to leave assault terminators as the last thing I buy because, as they are awesome, everybody uses them....and I wanted to set myself apart.

 

I forgive you in advance for mocking, lecturing, or eye-rolling at me. <3

 

One of the players has 4 big ones (fexs and a tyrant I presume); this is a 1750 list. I'm not sure what that means for the rest of his forces, but I'm guessing all of my guns with a range longer than 12" should be focused on taking down the big bugs and my assault troops/vanguard should just be on cleaning up the babies/teenagers...likely held in reserve to come flying in off of the board edge.

 

I have a lot to think about; I kind of want to take a shot at one of the guys now, even if it means I get hosed...I think this will be clearer to me after that kind of thing happens. @_@

[ShinyRhino]

I (somewhat sheepishly) decided to leave assault terminators as the last thing I buy because, as they are awesome, everybody uses them....and I wanted to set myself apart.

 

Same here. Not a fan of the current "uber unit" bandwagon. I'm the only Marine player that uses Bikes in my area!

[Deathwing]

A few things just to further worry people out there. The maximum attacks a Carnifex can have is actually 9 (D6 attacks + 1 for scything talons + 2 for charging if it has tusks), they have to pay quite a lot of points for it but didnt want someone to call cheat if they get steamrolled by this beast. Of course this nasty is completely CC and will do nothing but run at you.

 

Wow forgot about the tusks and tail weapon. Still those are expensive fexes. The dakka fexes are pretty weak and can easily be dealt with by terminators (T6, W4 and 3+ saves as opposed to T7 W5 and 2+ save). The running close combat fexes you could probably just ignore until they hit your lines then counter charge with terminators (feeding it a land raider full of terminators at the right time isn't a bad thing). Again try to put a cyclone on one of those terminators to give you more long range high strength weaponry.

[thade]

My talent with greenstuff and general DIY cutting isn't so great...so I'm skeptical I can build my own cyclone missile launcher. I believe I can go the $$ route and buy a solo termie with said cyclone launcher, oui? Maybe I can try to make one and succeed...would be a cheaper route to two cyclone launcher.

[honersstodnt]

if you can gun down the synapse creatures first, you really could benefit from taking a librarian epistolary. give him might of the ancients and any other power...

 

if you kill the synapse, the fexes are not immune to instant death. an epistolary gets 4 attacks, and you can make him strength 6, so he will wound fexes pretty reliably... and if he wounds, he kills.

 

i'd put him, along with your other terminators, in the raider, and rush them up to kill some fexes after the synapse creatures are dead.

 

unlike the others on here, I think a dread is a decent choice for finishing off wounded carnifexes. if you can plug 2 wounds into a fex before the dread charges, it stands a decent chance of finishing it in hand to hand, with 3 attacks hitting on 3's (usually), and wounding on 2's.

 

edit: also, consider giving your assault squads plasma pistols. 2 plasma shots and then charge with a fist should seriously mess up any carnifex. as long as fexes don't get the charge, they really aren't that scary unless they cost a :verymad: ton of points, and fexes in nidzilla lists are never THAT expensive, because they need the cheap ones so they can have more of them.

[thade]

What ones are synapse creatures? Just the big ones?

 

I think it'd be ideal if I could pick out and kill the synapse creatures, but I'm willing to bet he (or any nid player) would expect that and be ready for it, oui?

[Deathwing]

Hive Tyrants, Warriors and sometimes Zoanthropes are all synapse creatures.

 

Though in a Nidzilla list you'll only see tyrants. Synapse makes all creatures within 12" immune to Instant Death as well as Fearless. They are therefore subject to No Retreat and if you can get a big bug in combat with a bunch of smaller bugs at the same time you can focus on killing the small bugs and force the big bug to take a bunch fo No Retreat saves.

[DerekLee688]

Don't know how sound of advice it is, having not done it. You could shield your shooty termies behind/near a Tac squad to counter charge a big bug and throw in your termies in second. He'll have to tear through the Tac's first. Besides, don't you want to dakka as much as possible.

 

The down side to that is that you arn't agressive with them.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

What ones are synapse creatures? Just the big ones?

 

I think it'd be ideal if I could pick out and kill the synapse creatures, but I'm willing to bet he (or any nid player) would expect that and be ready for it, oui?

Expecting it and being ready for it are two different things.

Every nids player expects you to hit synapse ASAP.

They'll do a variety of things to try and stop you.

Gaunts give cover to Zoans and a tyrant with any number of tyrant guard. The do not give Flyrants cover, however, though those usually have a 2+ save to stop Krak missiles, etc from getting easy wounds.

Warriors are not great, but can be easily screened. Save them for last unless you get a great opportunity to kill them.