Okay, arguments sake, because I'm sick of people whining 3.5

[incinerator950]

Our new codex sucks, we've come up with a few ways to legitimately keep going, but you then got every little cry baby *****ing about how 3.5 was completely overpowered, kinda like how IG and Orks are now.

 

So apart from Iron Warriors, Lords and chosen, and Demonbombing, what other stupid crap have you heard the enemy complain about?

 

The only people I hear this from are people who always got their ass handed to them by Chaos, and one guy who used to play but doesn't now.

 

I really want someone to illuminate me on this, as I have both 3.5 and 4.0 with me.

 

Also, can you move a Land Raider max distance, then pivot, and then Assault with Terminators in the 1st/2nd turn?

 

Like say, possibility wise?

[Brother Nihm]

Unless this topic turns into something constructive I doubt it will live very long.

[IronWinds]

Ironwinds attempt to make this constructive.

 

 

Ok we did loose a lot with 4.0. I am an IW player, but I didn't play one of the lists that got a bad reputation. Actually my problem with our new codex is that my old list... which was once a rather rare list is now the tourny standard.

 

 

My 3.5 tourny list.

 

Speed Prince

 

4-5 rhino squads, all melta or flamer

 

4-6 obliterators. Some would deep strike.

 

 

The average 4th tourny list

 

Winged prince

 

4-5 rhino squads

 

obliterators or defilers, and a termicide squad to DS

 

 

The 3.5 codex did have problems, but besides a few problems it was a good codex. The different legions had rules, and 8 of the 9 were playable armies that could win games. Sorry TSs. And chaos had a lot of different lists. We had shooty lists, we had assault lists, we had versatile lists, slow lists, fast lists, tank heavy, no tanks, etc. And 9/10 units in the codex were used on a regular basis by someone. Instead of the cookie cutter lists we have now. My old... rather uncommon list is now the mold for all other chaos armies... which only makes my opponents better prepared for my list.

 

Now every army, regardless of legion... for the very few that are still playable the army looks almost exaclty the same.

 

Oh and since my list didn't change with the new codex, I win and slaughter my opponent in just as many games. So anyone who thought my old list was overpowered.... is hurting even more as almost everyone is using it now. 4th has things that are overpowered as well, and has units no one will ever take.

 

3.5 had problems.... fixable problems, but it was a good codex otherwise. The 4th codex is broken in another way. The armies it creates aren't broken, it broke the legions, it broke the versatility of the army, it broke the 'fluff' of the army, it broke certain units completely. Give me 3.5 w/ no extra heavies, more expensive obliterators... and can't really say anything about demon bombing now... we have a whole new army that demon bombs 100% of the time.

 

So apart from Iron Warriors, Lords and chosen, and Demonbombing, what other stupid crap have you heard the enemy complain about?

 

Something to complain about? Envy. If I played another army I would have be envious of the chaos codex, you make so many different 'good' lists with it. If someone said they were playing chaos you had no clue what you were going up against. The 3.5 chaos list was the most diverse, the most versatile, the most unique army making codex. And the fluffy armies you could make.... The 4th is a guidebook to cookie cutters.

[Brother Amarel]

Good post by IronWinds, a rather fine summary.

 

The genericisation (yay, new word) in 4.0 is what bothers me the most - it's really hard to do something different and still be competitive enough to have fun. The other thing that bothers me is how little effort has gone into allowing fluffy lists (or, indeed, how much effort has gone into not allowing them perhaps). All that was needed to at least sate us a little would have been to keep the rule that gave us a free A/C in a unit dedicated to a particular God if the unit was a multiple of the God's favoured number and only contained units marked by either that God or Undivided.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

IronWinds summed it up well. The really short version is this:

 

3.5 Allowed 4 or 5 strong lists that were all tournament viable.

 

4.0 Allows 2 strong lists that are possibly stronger than 3.5, but they are easier to make and play and less enjoyable to play against (lash).

 

The difference is not in power, it was in flavor and options. If i wanted a tournament winning list i'd take 4.0 lists any day. If i want to actually enjoy the game i want 3.5

[DuskRaider]

You guys should take this fight over to Warseer... A bunch of 4.0 fanboys there :ph34r:

 

Really, I can list off a few things I like and dislike about both codices. I am by NO means a fan of the 4.0 codex, and the worst part is for a while myself and others have blamed Gav Thorpe for it. Come to find out, this codex was made to be Part One of Two... But where's Part Two, GW? Yeah. That's what I thought.

 

3.5 is still my favorite codex, 4.0 can't hold a candle to it by any stretch of the imagination in most places. My Death Guard army is now bland, no cool Plagueswords or Nurgle-specific Psyker powers. I have no more Plague Carrier on my vehicles, taking a squad, while still tactically worth it, just doesn't have the advantages it used to. People cry and complain about my all-Plague Marine force, trying to call powergame on me. You know, even though I've been playing Death Guard for almost a decade now. My Terminators no longer really convey the feel of Plague Terminators.

 

Icons were the single most lame change in the new codex. So you're saying a group of devout and fanatical warriors 10,000+ years old suddenly lose all of their faith and favor just because the Icon Bearer tripped and fell? Get a life. This was the second biggest failing of the codex. What's the first, you may ask? Throwing out about 20 years of fluff by allowing opposing gods to ally with one another. There's NO reason Emperor's Children and World Eaters would be on the same side except if it was a Black Crusade. Are you trying to tell me all of the metagamers are taking part in a Black Crusade? Lame. There's really no advantage or reward for playing a themed army at all, unless the units were already powerful.

 

Alright, now that I've ripped the 4.0 codex to shreds, let me point out some good things.

 

World Eaters. I can actually play a World Eaters army that's not just a bunch of frothing madmen who forsake range... and tactics... and self preservation. I can actually field Tactical World Eaters, and Devastators and Assault Marines and make them look like the masters of war they're supposed to be, which is awesome. Another nice thing is my Plague Marines. They've become a lot more appealing because they are so hard to kill. In order to take out an entire army of Plague Marines, you have to rely on a ton of AP2 or AP1 weapons, which a lot of armies don't have in large supply. It's nice to have a force that is competitive as well as cool looking (not saying the 3.5 Death Guard lists weren't competitive... they were).

 

That's all I can think of for now. I've been arguing with people for over a month on this subject, both online and IRL. Seems GW stirred up a big divide when announcing their potential release of Legions codices in the future. Best part is, a lot of the people complaining are the same ones who endorse separate Space Marine codices (because they're all so different :P ).

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I've been around this merry-go so many times... *sigh*

[Corpse.]

I have a feeling this may be related.

 

6 land raider, lash sorc, 15 marines with 3 meltagun, 9 terminator+3 powerfist 2k force.

 

I'm that guy. If you were scrolling across "that" site. These subjects were spanned in there, and almost identical.

 

Also, can you move a Land Raider max distance, then pivot, and then Assault with Terminators in the 1st/2nd turn?

22" distance if you manage to get an assault of 6" with terminators.

 

1" pivot extra distance with the vehicles corner+side sponson pushed against your deployment line. You pivot and gain 1" aiming at the enemy. Move 12", disembark the full 2" distance from the offramp. The larger terminator base barely touching 2" disembark distance+6" assault gives you the full 22" distance from start to finish if you managed to get that assault move. Add the 12" distance of your deployment zone and you can roughly tap anyone who moved out of their D-zone. Failing that, there is always lash.

 

To be blunt I don't use the 6lr force much, since I use Mutt-Man's plethora of land raiders he left behind to actually field it. I don't like using models I didn't paint, and he paints better then I do. (the jerk!)

[Lord_Caerolion]

You guys should take this fight over to Warseer... A bunch of 4.0 fanboys there :P

 

It's become impossible to discuss this over at Warseer, I've found. You try to make one reasonable suggestion about toning down 3.5, and suddenly half the forum jumps on you, screaming at you for being a power-gaming jerk who just wants to win no matter what, and who'll only be happy once I get 3.5 back with more power in it.

 

And all that from saying I'd like to be able to represent Night Lords with the Chaos Codex without simply being basic Marines. Woo, real fun there! No Icons, no Cults, no daemons, no Oblits... what does that leave me?

 

It gets even worse when you suggest using the Loyalist codex for "non-Chaos" Chaos Marines like the Iron Warriors/Night Lords. Honestly, in most conversations regarding Chaos over there I think I'd get off lighter if instead of actually discussing things I had said I killed and ate babies for my meals. With kittens for dessert.

 

I mean sure, if I want a damn powerful Chaos army, I'd use the CSM codex. However, to stay true to my interpretation of Night Lords fluff, I'm left with a barebones list, with nothing to really pick from. I can have Chaos Marines, Chosen, Termies, Lords, Sorcerors, Raptors, Bikes, Havocs and tanks, none of which can have Icons or Marks. In other words, I have a Loyalist Marine list with the only thing differing between the two lists being BP+B+CCW, and Ld10, and a fraction of the unit choices. Not really my idea of a fun list. Workable? Sure. Entertaining? Not so much.

[Corpse.]

Solution for people who feel cheated out of unique codex armies (mainly eldar, some orks and chaos players) use apocalypse FOC rules for 2000 pt and under games for standard missions. The only rule being that the force must be of the same codex. Your still forced to take troops to obtain objectives so its not a big deal seeing the 50 warp spider army that was legal some years ago. (Mutt-Man had such an army, poor dude)

 

I still jump into it with my 60 chosen list from time to time when someone wants to use those rules. Just for the old 3.5 infiltrate force I used to muster.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That doesn't really help when the thing that kept me using the 3.5 codex was Daemonic Visage and Veteran Skills, and the Loyalist codex at least gives me Drop Pods, an orbital bombardment and Sniper Scouts to give a Night Lord-y feel. Raptors and Bikes do not a Night Lords army make.

[Spacefrisian]

I also don't like the newest version of the chaos dex.

Its just like they are just Marines with no ATSKNF, and some added toys. thats how i see it.

 

I liked my 3.5 EC army, more fluffy and stronger than what they are now.

[Important]

These topics have come around since the begining of dawn (4.0 codex). Not really that much to say about it that have already been said.

[incinerator950]

I have a feeling this may be related.

 

6 land raider, lash sorc, 15 marines with 3 meltagun, 9 terminator+3 powerfist 2k force.

 

I'm that guy. If you were scrolling across "that" site. These subjects were spanned in there, and almost identical.

 

Also, can you move a Land Raider max distance, then pivot, and then Assault with Terminators in the 1st/2nd turn?

22" distance if you manage to get an assault of 6" with terminators.

 

1" pivot extra distance with the vehicles corner+side sponson pushed against your deployment line. You pivot and gain 1" aiming at the enemy. Move 12", disembark the full 2" distance from the offramp. The larger terminator base barely touching 2" disembark distance+6" assault gives you the full 22" distance from start to finish if you managed to get that assault move. Add the 12" distance of your deployment zone and you can roughly tap anyone who moved out of their D-zone. Failing that, there is always lash.

 

To be blunt I don't use the 6lr force much, since I use Mutt-Man's plethora of land raiders he left behind to actually field it. I don't like using models I didn't paint, and he paints better then I do. (the jerk!)

 

So, it is legal to be doing that. Okay, we had an argument for a half hour about the legitamacy of that tactic. Since I'm not touching games over 1500+ pts for a long time, I wasn't that interested save the previous argument that someone said 3.5 was too overpowered. Really, the guy might have been right but from what he did he was also unsportsman like and posted plenty of reasons not to play with him.

 

Not going to Warseer thank you though, also, thank you for keeping this topic serious guys.

[Corpse.]

The conclusion to "not gain distance" because vehicles are longer then they are wide and not perfectly round, any turning and moving adds distance no matter how you go about it. Turn at all, and still move to your max distance, you gain a little something.

 

The conclusion we came up with is measure from the center (pivoting) point of the vehicle when you move it. That way you gain nothing after a pivot. House rule though, since it says you should measure from the hull and many vehicles "hull" doesnt cover the top - like an open topped vehicle. from marine vehicles the top is part of the hull because its enclosed, so its technicly legal without a house rule. Not that you have the rights to tell your opponent to do the same even after explaining it.

 

 

>>To add to why I use the pivot bonus, is because everyone else does it here, and I was perhaps one of the last fellas to start doing it before the wave of newcomers.

[Primarch Naogedd]

A friend let me use the 3.5 'dex that I got off of eBay with his own table and terrain. It was bundles of fun; I took Land Raiders, Possessed, PA Chosen, Havocs, lots of Daemons; many of the choices that are weak in the new 'dex, and won 2/3, versus horde Orks, Blood Angels and Sallies. Lost to Sallies, massacred the Orks and a solid victory versus the Blood Angels.

 

Also, we tried a campaign; the Lord and his retinue, you get 50% of your VPs in wargear and upgrades, and believe me, I had one hell of a Chosen unit by the end of that. Killed Abby, Skarbrand, Ku'Gath, two Thirsters, three Keepers, two Lords of Change and Fateweaver.

 

In a single battle. 'Course, the unit cost about 1200pts, but it was hilarious.

[Debauchery101]

I totally agree with you the fact that our new codex is Bunk! There is no individuality in our armies.

 

imagine a space marine codex with all of the chapter masters as special characters and everything is just listed as basic marines. now you can choose to buy say like some ravenwing, bloodclaws, death company, or some other special chapter specific unit. but you wont be able to field a whole army of one chapter due to it being inflexible or because those units are expensive.

 

chaos used to be a get in your face and bust it open army. which you can do that if you want but i find it more productive to lash and manuever around marines in rhinos and try to wither enemies down. and run in at last to capture objectives.

 

also our basic marines are nothing compared to astartes. we pay around 50 more pts to get what a marine does in regards to 10 men, veteran sgt, 1 heavy weapon 1 special. we have to pay for our reroll, which is an icon and by the new rules can easily be taken out whch makes us lose our bonus. whoever thugh of that rule is rediculous. thats probably one of the things that make me mad the most.

 

why cant we just have this chaos codex and have it be like black legion and have some more chaos marine codicies to let us play iron warriors, alpha legion, night lords or any other solo legion army.

 

as for all of the people saying we had it coming....

 

nasty things we used to have.....

 

all infiltrating death guard army....yes im guilty of playing that one..... speed prince, plague swords that dont inflict "instant death" but still take out multi wound models on a 4+, tough 5 fearless havoc squads with true grit, nurgle banner that inflicts 2d6 wounds

 

emperors children army.... guilty again, lord with siren, drugs, speed, twin claws, str 5, furious charge....ownage, champions with rending claws/lightning claws and sirens downed many dreads and heros. sonic weapons. oh yeah those really cheap deamonettes with old rending rocked

 

iron warriors.....thrice guilty haha. demon prince, 4 troops in rhinos, 9 oblits, 1 basilisk, 2 defilers....

 

was actually asked to choose somthing other than chaos when i played tournements since i kept winning though i was changing my lists.

 

but in our defense...

 

games workshop along with everybody knows that people are going to use and abuse anything they give us. so its not really the players fualts for having a codex that is pretty powerful.

 

also chaos could only play with chaos, we had no inquisition or guardsmen allies. people would take inquisitors to help with deployment and first turn. take inquisitors with marines to help rail my deep strikin troops and take a super cheap elite inquisitor or a crappy guar psyker to nullify my psychics from a sorc or demon prince, greater demon that costs 3 times as much.

 

this was all during the same time blood angels has free furious charge. :), ive seen armies all scouts in the troops choices with 6 speeders and 3 baal preds as backup.

 

but whatever thats old news.....

 

i think we should get some work done on our options and points values and i totally support the idea to get another codex to support playing specific legions of chaos. marines get it ! hell some of our renegade legions are really into worshipping chaos so much. especially alpha legion.

 

they need to get some better play testers and stop putting rubbish battle reports in the white dwarfs making the non chaos players think we are actually badass. seriously have you guys ever seen an about to be released army lose a battle report? the opposing amy list is always messed up. but anyways now im ranting :P

 

 

This is a Family friendly fourm so please watch the launge. Insane Psychopath

[incinerator950]

I thought loyalists couldn't have a Chainsword, bolt pistol, free grenades, and bolter?

[Zealot Of Chaos]

I thought loyalists couldn't have a Chainsword, bolt pistol, free grenades, and bolter?

they don't have the chainsword as standard without losing the bolter or bolt pistol

[incinerator950]

alright, so that was the best thing we were ever given from this codex?

[Debauchery101]

have you even tried playing with this codex or looked at this codex?

 

stuff like the following were the best things given, in my favorite order....

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM Sirens!!!!!!! best item in the game. trumps banshees' first strike

Plague swords!!!!! next best thing to doom sirens, most hated piece of war gear by tyranids players

champion/hero upgrades

legion specific army lists

veteran skill options

[the jeske]

I thought loyalists couldn't have a Chainsword, bolt pistol, free grenades, and bolter?

they don't have the chainsword as standard without losing the bolter or bolt pistol

unless they are space wolfs.

[Debauchery101]

I thought loyalists couldn't have a Chainsword, bolt pistol, free grenades, and bolter?

they don't have the chainsword as standard without losing the bolter or bolt pistol

unless they are space wolfs.

 

 

oh man that codex is more broke than the new marine codex. njal is in term armor now, there is a wolf rider calvary hero, bjorn has more defense than most of the smaller super heavies. counter attack and acute senses for all marines ......... bleh

[DuskRaider]

I thought loyalists couldn't have a Chainsword, bolt pistol, free grenades, and bolter?

they don't have the chainsword as standard without losing the bolter or bolt pistol

unless they are space wolfs.

 

 

oh man that codex is more broke than the new marine codex. njal is in term armor now, there is a wolf rider calvary hero, bjorn has more defense than most of the smaller super heavies. counter attack and acute senses for all marines ......... bleh

 

 

Good... I can't wait to play against a new SW player and grind him into the dirt.

[grimz]

I'm still on the fence about playing marines or chaos, I know that I should take a grain of salt with what I hear here, but are chaos still competitive?

 

It doesn't have to be at the top meta-gaming level, but at the friendly level playing against common things such as Orks, and lots of SM?