igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 So in 5th we have a few different bodyguard options.. Space Marines, as I understand it, have no retinues. But other codecies, pre-5th, do. The mechanic differences between the two are glaring. A retinue and its HQ unit are a single entity; the IC in the retinue can't leave and they count as a single HQ slot, even for deployment in Dawn of War. Things like a SM Command Squad aren't retinues. The IC you take them with can join or leave them, and doesn't even have to be deployed with them. In Dawn of War you can't deploy both as the Command Squad counts as a separate HQ slot, even if it doesn't take an actual slot. The question is, how do you tell whether a bodyguard is a retinue or not? And what do we call the things like the Command Squad, which are not? Thanks for clarifying this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 We call them... command squads. Or perhaps "HQ Squads". I know I call my warlock bodygaurds... warlock bodygaurds. I dont need a special designation to show theyre not a retinue- much the opposite, I feel I need to let my opponent know before the game that my wolf gaurd bodygaurds ARE a retinue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 Well, I lack the SW codex. Mind giving a few examples of what are retinues and what aren't? I'm trying to find how to differentiate what is and what isn't a retinue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Inquisitors can take retinues of henchmen. Black Templar command squads are retinues, though no other marine command squad is a retinue. Grey Knight heroes can take retinues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 I've looked at the Black Templar codex, but I don't see the word 'retinue' anywhere in the Black Templar Command Squad entry. I'm trying to understand what makes something a retinue and what makes it.. just a bodyguard unit that can be left and joined whenever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 For the Black Templars, it's rather the fact that it states that the IC cannot leave the Command Squad until it is killed that makes it a retinue. In the same bullet point it states the Captain (or Chaplain) will become a member of the unit. So it's a retinue. Page 22, Black Templars Characters, 2nd bullet point if you want to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 During 3rd Edition, the Characters special rule description for "Independent Character" for models that could get a bodyguard would usually say something like "unless the Captain is accompanied by a command squad, he counts as an independent character". That wording is still used in the Codex Space Wolves, for example, so as long as SW characters are with some Wolf Guard they are not treated as an independent character. I do not have the Codex Black Templars at hand, but I think they used the same rules as in the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines. On the page with the army special rules (with "ATSKNF" and "Drop Pod Assault") there was a description of the three ways a Space Marine character could be fielded. He could be fielded either by himself, as a proper independent Character and free to join or leave units, or he could be fielded as leading a command squad, in which case both would count as a single HQ choice and he would not be allowed to leave it. The third way was to attach the character to the command squad of a differtent Character, so you could get a single HQ choice consisting of a Captain, the command Squad, and an attached Chaplain and an attached Librarian, all as one single choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The word retinue is not important (as a mater of fact tyrant guard are called retinue but arn't). The big thing is that it will say somewhere, somehow that the IC in question cannot leave the retinue, this might nbe done very speicificly, or it might say they are feilded as a single unit. Or in the case of the Broodlord the retinue is actualy listed in the unit composition (so indirectly stateing that is a single unit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 I have it nailed down now, thanks alot guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Functionally, if an Independent Character starts with a squad and may not leave that squad until the squad is destroyed, then the squad is a retinue. Any other situation is just an IC joined to a regular unit. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 We, the players, do not 'define' what a Retinue is... (though I'll wagre you meant that 'you' more in a general sense ;D ) The rulebook, and more specifically the codexes, define what is/is not a retinue. Generally, most of the posters above are correct. If it's bought 'for' the character (whether it's an IC or not), and he cannt leave it at any time, it'll more than likely be a retinue. Check the codex though to be sure. If it's bought, because they took X or Y character, then it may not necessarily be a retinue. Like the new SM codex, command squads for them, aren't (as already pointed out above in more detail). But, it's something that will need to be looked up in the specific books. There's really no other way to tell.. The word retinue is not important (as a mater of fact tyrant guard are called retinue but aren't). Really? Then please tell us how something that is labeled a retinue for a character unit is somehow not a retinue for said character unit? The Tyrant Guard certainly are a retinue. The Tyrant's last special rule labels them as such. Even the title of their unit entry 'Hive Tyrant Retinue: Tyrant Guard' labels them as a retinue. That makes them a retinue. The word, actually, does matter. Just because something may act like one, doesn't necessarily make them one. Their codex must say how they operate in those regards, and/or what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 The word retinue is not important (as a mater of fact tyrant guard are called retinue but aren't). Really? Then please tell us how something that is labeled a retinue for a character unit is somehow not a retinue for said character unit? The Tyrant Guard certainly are a retinue. The Tyrant's last special rule labels them as such. Even the title of their unit entry 'Hive Tyrant Retinue: Tyrant Guard' labels them as a retinue. That makes them a retinue. The word, actually, does matter. Just because something may act like one, doesn't necessarily make them one. Their codex must say how they operate in those regards, and/or what they are. They are not a retinue because only ICs have retinues, the Hive Tyrant isn't an IC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 A retinue is a retinue is a retinue is a retinue. Does not matter what kind of character they are attached to. Nothing says that *only* IC's have retinues. The rules on Retinues only mentions *Independant* characters, after the retinue is dead. before that it's simply any character, no mention of 'independant'. But I suppose that you'd also say a tyrant and his guard, despite the guard being labaled as a retinue, are only worth 1KP (despite the consensus on pretty much every board, even the top two 'nid boards)...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 essentialy, the rules for a retinue are on pg 48, in the IC section. So either the guard arnt a retinue, or the tyrant becomes a IC after the guard die and could joing a brood of wariors or genestealers or similar. Now in a polite game you should count them two KP, just like you should not count spore mines as KP, but thats not RAW. Part of the requirement for a retinue as defined in the BRB is thats its for an IC, and it also says that a retinue is usualy called a retinue, but not always. The word Retinue is not a keyword. This will likely change when the Nids get a 5th ed codex, but for now, thats how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 A retinue is a retinue is a retinue is a retinue. Does not matter what kind of character they are attached to. Nothing says that *only* IC's have retinues. The rules on Retinues only mentions *Independant* characters, after the retinue is dead. before that it's simply any character, no mention of 'independant'. But I suppose that you'd also say a tyrant and his guard, despite the guard being labaled as a retinue, are only worth 1KP (despite the consensus on pretty much every board, even the top two 'nid boards)...? The rules imply that only an IC can have a retinue and are written with that in mind. Also, do you think that the Tyrant becomes an IC when the guard are killed like it says in the retinue rules or are you just selectivly applying parts of the rule that you think make sence. And yes, by that reasoning I would argue against them giving 2 KP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I have to say I'm not sure why there is confusion over HT, tyrant guard or the associated KP's. the 5th ed FAQ made the situation quite clear... Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character? A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character with this unit) until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures. So what's the confusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reglor Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I have to say I'm not sure why there is confusion over HT, tyrant guard or the associated KP's. the 5th ed FAQ made the situation quite clear... Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character? A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character with this unit) until the Guards are all destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts to the normal rules for monstrous creatures. So what's the confusion? I will admit I have not seen this before. I also don't see what the point of it as all it says is don't treat the Tyrant as an IC, which you wouldn't anyway. Would someone tell me how it changes how you play the unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 The thing that you have to remember about the tyrant and its retinue is that the retinue effectively removes the monstrous creature rules from the tyrant whilstthe guard remain in play. The biggest effect that this has in my mind is that with a guard attached a tyrant is able to claim cover saves a lot easier than if they are acting alone as a monstrous creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 No it doesn't. The Tyrant still keeps the MC rule for all game purposes. Cover saves work that way, because it just happens to be in a unit bigger than itself. And only independant characters can, now, be picked out of squads they're mixed in with if the IC has the MC rule. The tyrant, not being an IC, is free to mingle in with his guard all he wants too (making SW redundant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azulz Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Can the Hive Tyrant still be singled out by the Vindicare Assassin's special shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetEzekial Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Yes, it always could. SW didn't prevent 'all' kinds of being singled out, just IC's, that had the MC status as well, being mixed into squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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