Rites of Battle.

[Grey Mage]

Id like to start this off by saying that Ive never done this, nor would I encourage its use in the game of 40k. This is purely a mental exercise of mine and a friends and I am interested in outside opinions. Please, no gut reactions about how abusive this is without reflecting on that.

 

Rites of Battle: ..... If a Black Templars Commander is on the table then all other Black Templars units may use his leadership for Morale, Pinning, or Leadership Tests.

 

A useful ability, especially since Black Templars lack Seargents and so generally have a lower leadership than most Marines. Note that it says Units, not squads, marines, or infantry.

 

Note that a Vehicle is a unit, and as such may use his leadership for morale, pinning and leadership tests as needed. Also note that the Dark Angels version of Rites of Battle uses the same wording.

 

Mind Worm: ...Pick an enemy model within 18" and in line of sight of the Librarian. If the target is in range it must pass a leadership test (models with no leadership characteristic are immune to the attack). If the model passes it suffers no ill effects. If the target fails.... ; remove the target from play (it counts as killed for victory points purposes).

 

It then follows a paragraph that goes on to state that no matter how likely a model is to be capable of feeling guilt it must have a leadership to test against in order to be affected.

 

The problem I see here is that it would appear that Black Templar vehicles with a marshall on the field have a leadership characteristic and thus could be affected by this power.

 

So.... followers of the OR forum I put this to you- how would you argue against this blatant abuse of RAW and, IMHO, departure from the spirit of the rules?

[Ian MacKay]

BRB page 63: Vehicles never take morale checks for any reason. Italics mine. Just because there is a BT Marshal on the field does not mean the vehicle suddenly gains a Ld score. So the part of the Mindworm rule that states models without a leadership score are immune means it can't be used on a vehicle no matter what. Even Dreads.

[Grey Mage]

But its not a Morale Check, its a Leadership Check.

[Legatus]

"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a Leadership value, no matter how unlikely it may seem that they can have feelings of guilt. By the same token, models without a Leadership value cannot be affected, no matter how likely it seems that they should."

 

No, Black Templar vehicles do not have a Leadership value when a marshall is present. They may use his.

[Almar Zamasee]

BRB page 63: Vehicles never take morale checks for any reason. Italics mine. Just because there is a BT Marshal on the field does not mean the vehicle suddenly gains a Ld score. So the part of the Mindworm rule that states models without a leadership score are immune means it can't be used on a vehicle no matter what. Even Dreads.

 

In my understanding, Morale and Leadership tests are one and the same.

 

Page 8 of the Rulebook states the following:

 

"Leadership Tests

Tests made against the leadership characteristic (like Morale Checks) are different from other test. In the case of a Leadership test..."

 

Though I might just be mistaken, although page 43 of the rulebook states that "Morale checks are a specific kind of Leadership test.

 

So in my understanding, Morale Checks are Leadership tests wrapped in a fancy name.

[Legatus]

Well, you are misunderstanding. Morale Tests are a test on the Leadership value, but there are other tests on the Leadership value which are not morale tests. Pinning tests (page 31) and psychic tests (page 50) are both Leadership tests, but they are NOT morale tests. Morale tests are only those three that are described on page 44, if the unit suffers over 25% casualties, is tank shocked, or loses in an assault. Units that automatically pass Leadership tests will never fall back because of casualties, tank shock or losing in an assault, but they still have to take psychic tests and pinning tests.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a Leadership value, no matter how unlikely it may seem that they can have feelings of guilt. By the same token, models without a Leadership value cannot be affected, no matter how likely it seems that they should."

 

No, Black Templar vehicles do not have a Leadership value when a marshall is present. They may use his.

This is correct.

[Hackbar]

"Note that the attack can affect any creature with a Leadership value, no matter how unlikely it may seem that they can have feelings of guilt. By the same token, models without a Leadership value cannot be affected, no matter how likely it seems that they should."

 

No, Black Templar vehicles do not have a Leadership value when a marshall is present. They may use his.

This is correct.

 

Agreed. Even if someone manages to argue that using the Marshall's Ld grants the vehicle a Ld score, you still have the word 'may' to fall back behind. You decide not to exercise that option, just like a normal squad could decide not to use the marshall's Ld if you want them to run from a bad situation.