Greyhunter77 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Horus caused all the Traitor Legions to be purged of Loyalist elements at Istavaan III. Did any of the Loyalist Legions have to purge rogue/traitor elements? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ufthak Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Dark Angels, in a way. Other than that, I don't think so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2103729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Well if they were any, they would have waited until the right moment to reveal their true loyalty. Like some of Imperial guard regiments did at the Siege of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2103733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 well techincaly the fallen didnt really join horus....Most of them werent even corrupted by chaos! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2103735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 It wouldn't suprise me at all if, other than the obvious Dark Angel example, there is going to be some other example of this in the series. Remember the revisionist structures of History. In the same way that we don't hear the negative side or failures of the victors in our own history, you can certainly imagine the loyalist legions 'sweeping under the carpet' any examples of their own internal politics. For the Dark Angels this involved blowing up their homeworld, but you can certainly imagine plenty of other, far less prominent actions taking place. Several things support this, such as the size of the Legions - even though they had a rigid military hierarchy, remember that many of them were spread throughout the galaxy as part of various expeditions. Imagine a Blood Angel commander, persecuting an alien foe on one remote part of the Crusade. This particular commander spent a significant part of the Crusade fighting alongside the Sons of Horus, and formed special and close bonds with some of their officers over time. How might he respond upon hearing that a SoH commander who he regarded as a close friend was subject to a savage attack by members of the Space Wolves? Consider the situation where the Blood Angel Commander is unable to obtain any other news or information on what is happening? it would be easy for the Blood Angel to back the side of the traitors. After the dust had settled following the Heresy, I can imagine the offending marines punishment would be more than a 'slap on the wrist' regardless of circumstance. Of course we could also say that Marines might want to side with Horus, rather than just finding themselves victims of circumstance. Read the opening speech by Horus in the 2nd Collected Visions book, regarding the Emperor betraying the martial honour of the Astartes - its stirring stuff, and you can see why some of the Legions sided with him if they thought it to be true. Of course, much depends on whether the HH series writers go with the alternative Worldview of Horus, as a genuine alternative to the plans of the Emperor, or the much more uninspired 'a wizard (chaos) did it' as an explanation for why the Heresy actually takes place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2103787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 *Loads a bolter and aims it at everyone* There are no Fallen, its just a vicious rumour being spread by the spiky guys in the robes over there. The entirity of the Dark Angels Legion was loyal to the Emperor during the Heresy! And any stories about our homeworld being destroyed by us in a battle with any Traitors are just lies!!! There was a gasleak, and someone switched on a light by accident.....yeah.....that'll work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2103788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 *cycles assault cannon and aims it at everyone* hey Anarnaxe, would you happen to know who that hooded guy over at the corner is? he's been aiming his plasma pistol and bolt pistol at you since you came over here. I think you owe him an apology? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 A minor nitpick: The Dark Angels didn't blow up their homeworld on purpose. It was the result of an apocalyptic battle between the Loyalists and the Fallen. And as for purging the Legion: it still goes on to this very day. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 *shoots the hoodie-wearing, plasma wielding nobody, only to see the body disappear* I don't see anyone. And the Luna Wolves didn't have assault cannons, they had the reaper autocannons. On a more serious note, while there might have been sympathisers in the loyal legions, those who had served with the likes of Horus or Mortarion in one of the many expeditions, any sense of brotherhood and shared victories probably would have been lost when news filtered back about the Istvaan System massacres Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Michaels Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Terrahawk didnt they have to bombard their homeworld becuse they couldent get on it becuse of the defences Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Varas Mortez Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 They bombarded it but the actual destruction was a warp storm as luthor stopped trying to kill lion, still injured him though. To be honest as far as having friendships and brotherhoods in other chapters, they wouldn't betray their primarchs I dont think. They were their worlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 They bombarded it but the actual destruction was a warp storm as luthor stopped trying to kill lion, still injured him though.To be honest as far as having friendships and brotherhoods in other chapters, they wouldn't betray their primarchs I dont think. They were their worlds. This. :) The bombardment weakened the planet, while the final nail in the coffin was the Warp storm caused by the vengeful Chaos Gods. It says in IA: Dark Angels that they (DAs) were horrified because of their planet getting blown up. So nothing intentional there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 But there is such a thing as blind rage, where you become so angry you don't take any notice of any dangers around you. Caliban was always a fragile planet, due to the fact that it lay so near to the Eye of Terror, it would only take one massive surge from the Eye to engulf the planet. When the loyal Dark Angels attacked their traitorous brethren from orbit, they were using ships which did have the potential to destroy planets. Knowing that some of their brothers turned to Chaos the loyal Dark Angels were furious, especially when you count the fact they were delayed on their way to Terra. The feeling of failing to stop the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne and now their own brothers were firing on them, something in the Dark Angels snapped and they couldn't be stopped. Whether intentional or not, the barrage from the Dark Angel ships were the single greatest contribution factor to Caliban's destruction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhunter77 Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 To be honest as far as having friendships and brotherhoods in other chapters, they wouldn't betray their primarchs I dont think.They were their worlds. If that was the case why did Loken, Tarvitz, Garro et al turn against their Primarchs. Garro in particular did it on the word of Tarvitz, a brother from another legion. And he was suppossed to be one of Mortarions favourites. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 To be honest as far as having friendships and brotherhoods in other chapters, they wouldn't betray their primarchs I dont think.They were their worlds. If that was the case why did Loken, Tarvitz, Garro et al turn against their Primarchs. Garro in particular did it on the word of Tarvitz, a brother from another legion. And he was suppossed to be one of Mortarions favourites. Tarvitz was the fulcrum of the events, it was his warning that brought everything to a head. Garro believed Tarvitz because of a long history of comradeship between them, the pair being honour brothers from a previous campaign. Loken knew ever since the fateful trip to Davin that something was awry, that the soul of the Legion was tainted, and so even then he had broken spiritually if not physically from the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2104878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Varas Mortez Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 QUOTE (Marshal Varas Mortez @ Sep 8 2009, 03:42 PM) *To be honest as far as having friendships and brotherhoods in other chapters, they wouldn't betray their primarchs I dont think. They were their worlds. If that was the case why did Loken, Tarvitz, Garro et al turn against their Primarchs. Garro in particular did it on the word of Tarvitz, a brother from another legion. And he was suppossed to be one of Mortarions favourites. Indeed, however they were still loyal to the emperor first and formost. So whilst the majority wont betray their primarch, the ones who beleive in the emperor I think wouldnt sway, that goes for a lot of the ones who didnt turn, many of them are pretty emperor botherers. IMO anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2105153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 the loyalist legions probably didn't have many (or any for that matter) traitors in their ranks since they knew they'd probably get shot immediately. another reason could be that betraying the emperor is one thing but betraying the emperor AND your own legion and Primarch is just insane! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2105636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyhunter77 Posted September 9, 2009 Author Share Posted September 9, 2009 but if they were scattered far away from their primarch and close to some of the rebels, both in distance and brotherhood, would they consider following Horus? IMO a lot of marines felt defleatd by the Emperors abandonment of them so would they turn to the charasmatic Warmaster? I believe that some would just as some in traitor legions stayed loyal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2106356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Firstly the Emperor never really abandoned the Astartes or the Imperium, he wanted to better humanity through other avenues and so left the fully capable Horus to continue with the Crusade. Secondly, and on the other hand, the Traitor Legions never really betrayed the Emperor did they? It's my belief that they saw his betrayal (in their own collective minds) as a severing of their oath/connection, so there was never any betrayal from their side. The only thing I cannot reconcile logically is the purging of the loyalists on Istvaan.. Because lets face it, other than Tarvitz, Loken, Torgaddon and Ancient Rylanor, who would realistically have strayed from the guiding light that Horus, or indeed Fulgrim, became? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2106561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergrmir Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Anyone else in Loken or Tarvitz' position, for one. They'd walked by the Emperor's side, they were from Terra, etc. etc. So was Garro. Pretty much anyone who had living memory of when the Emperor lead the crusades would feel really strongly either that he was still there with them, or that he wasn't. It was on these people that the uprising hinged on. Everyone else, they probably would have followed their captains or comrades. I mean, this wasn't Badab - Marines couldn't rebel thinking that it was about Space Marine sovereignty, after being fired on my Imperial forces. A) The rebels were the aggressors, and :P almost the first thing that Marines who rebelled would do be to take on loyalists, because the other rebels sure as heck aren't going to be able to stand up to loyalist Marines. So if you had, say a detachment of Ravenguard campaigning for months alongside a chapter of Sons, and suddenly you were ordered into dropping onto Imperial Fists, I think you'd bloody well wonder why and try and talk to them yourselves before going in. You had to actively rebel against not merely the Emperor, who sat distant and imperious on his throne on Terra, but your primarch, if you were from one of the loyalist legions. Garro/Tarvitz/Loken/Rylanor merely maintained that one loyalty was greater than the other, whereas potential traitor loyalists would have to spit on two sets of vows. EDIT: An aside about the Emperor and his motivations; perhaps it's just because the HH books are the usual black library fare and thus don't actually make much sense, or perhaps it's because they're way better and embrace ambiguity in regards to characters - I walk away from pretty much each one further convinced that, whatever good the Emperor did, a lot of his sons were way more insightful than he was. I mean, if we grant that he was in effect a living god, then the living part really didn't seem to do much in terms of keeping him in terms of the mortal experience. He treats his sons like dirt, he raises warrior brotherhoods on a rule-by-oath tradition and then steps over their heads to give power to rule-by-legislation, and expects them to somehow be perfectly okay with this, he blathers on about human evolution and reason and all that but doesn't really DO anything to prevent cults of his divinity, nor to prevent the cultlike resistance to his cults of divinity. He has some unexplained vision of the human future that's supposedly going to be good for everyone, but along the way there are billions living in drudgery and toil and slavery ( WEAPONS RACK SERVITOR?!). Sounds more like any other mortal dictator with a hopeful vision than a godlike entity to me. Not that I think all that much of Horus either, but at least some of the loyalists (and some of the traitors!) were fighting for a cause that actually could make sense to people who didn't begin by agreeing with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2106671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I'd say it depended on the Legion. For example, the Blood Angels, a Legion who worked closely with the Sons of Horus, would probably have been quite likely to have a few of the more militant-minded members think Horus was right. In fact, I can see all the Legions having members feeling disaffected by the new plans of the Emperor and his Council of Terra. So in a sense, many Legionnaires of all Legions probably did see it as a Badab War type event, with them fighting for the sovereignty of the Astartes, and the right of place of the Primarchs at the head of the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2106779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 actually Loken was a C'thonian NOT a terran. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2106849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whylie Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think Lorgar and Kor Phaeron have a lot to answer for! What happened to the Dark Angels is abit of a mess to say the least, you had Calibanites killing Terrans, Terrans killing Calibanites and Johnsonites going after Lutherins and visa versa and every which way, basically the Fall is the herasey in microcosum( Johnson as the Emperor and Luther as Horus). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2133798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 the loyalist legions probably didn't have many (or any for that matter) traitors in their ranks since they knew they'd probably get shot immediately. another reason could be that betraying the emperor is one thing but betraying the emperor AND your own legion and Primarch is just insane! Read my previous comment for the possibility of treacherous loyalists existing. To use real world examples, if you study any historical Civil War there are numerous occassions where anything from small elements to entire armies have switched sides or ended up embroiled in battle with the wrong side. The point is that time and time again we are reminded of the absolute anarchy that embroiled the Imperium over the 7 years of the Heresy, of brother fighting brother. It was nothing so simple as a Primarch saying, "right you lot, all attack Horus's forces" - in reality the sheer scale of the legions and their primary task of pushing back the boundaries of the Imperium meant they were scattered all over the galaxy and were dependent on their own command structures. Once these chains of command started to collapse during the Heresy, and doubt over authenticity as well as simple breakdowns of communication started to set in, I can easily see the possibility of discord in the loyalist legions (apart from perhaps in the Ultramarines, as they're a bunch of squares ;) ) Look at Mechanicum, in the confusion which is rife amongst all the factions on Mars, in Fallen Angels where not only does a force switch sides (the Mechanicum) but one Primarch ends up aiding someone who's actually on the wrong side. In Battle for the Abyss, where Astartes fight alongside each other (both future traitor and loyalist) when faced with a narrow set of circumstances. My guess is in the period of the Heresy chaos reigned in more ways than one, and if there was the possibility of anything happening then it probably did :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2135263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 EDIT: An aside about the Emperor and his motivations; perhaps it's just because the HH books are the usual black library fare and thus don't actually make much sense, or perhaps it's because they're way better and embrace ambiguity in regards to characters - I walk away from pretty much each one further convinced that, whatever good the Emperor did, a lot of his sons were way more insightful than he was. Really? I certainly don't (to each their own, of course). It seems to be that most of the rebel Primarchs are either fatally flawed, naive, victims of circumstances, manipulated, or a combination of all of the above. Only Alpharius, Lorgar and Magnus strike me as potentially rivaling the Emperor in terms of knowledge of the subject matter at hand (Chaos). Where Lorgar and Magnus are concerned, I still seriously doubt it--at best, I think Magnus simply chose to disagree with the Emperor over sorcery, and Lorgar aligned himself with what he saw as a better master. Lorgar's qualifications have to seriously be questioned, though: any "knowledge" he or Kor-Phaeron gained came directly from the very powers that wanted to employ him. The Emperor, on the other hand, had lived through the Long Night--he knew full well what the "glories of Chaos" entailed for Humanity. He treats his sons like dirt, ... I read that a lot. In what way, though? How? By the time the Emperor found his sons, he was in "making lemonade out of lemons" mode. No one can seriously contend that he had wished for Konrad Curze to grow up to be a sociopath or for Angron to be little more than a berserking murderer. Again, look at his relationships with--and the loyalty he inspired in--the loyal Primarchs. Those sons of his weren't manipulated or exposed to freakish circumstances in their upbringing gladly fought for him. I doubt they did so because he treated them like dirt. ... he raises warrior brotherhoods on a rule-by-oath tradition and then steps over their heads to give power to rule-by-legislation, ... I'm not sure I follow. In what way? Because he appointed non-elected Imperial Commanders over conquered worlds? Or because he raised a bureaucracy to take care of the daily doings of any empire? If the Astartes and Horus were miffed because the Emperor needed record-keepers and tax-collectors, then the problem is naivete, not rightful indignation. ... he blathers on about human evolution and reason and all that but doesn't really DO anything to prevent cults of his divinity, ... So he fails to stop underground cults in the expeditionary fleets from all the way in Terra. What really matters is that he does address problems where he sees them. Hence his chastising Lorgar over obviously violations of his intent. He has some unexplained vision of the human future that's supposedly going to be good for everyone, but along the way there are billions living in drudgery and toil and slavery ( WEAPONS RACK SERVITOR?!). Sounds more like any other mortal dictator with a hopeful vision than a godlike entity to me. Exactly. A superhuman, superpowered, perhaps immortal dictator, but a flawed, human dictator nonetheless. Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/177947-loyalist-purges/#findComment-2135323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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