Bike Squads...5 or 8?

[ShinyRhino]

I'm fine-tuning my "dream list", and trying to select which form of bike squads I want to plan for. The part I'm having trouble with is selecting whether I want to run them in a max squad of 8 with an attack bike, or in a unit of 4 with attack bike. Both would be under a Biker Captain, which makes both scoring.

The 8-man setup gives me a sergeant, two meltaguns, and a multimelta attack bike in an anti-tank setup, with the rest as vanilla bikers. Hefty points, but able to be combat squadded. I also have plans for an anti-infantry setup where the meltaguns are replaced with flamers (or plasmaguns) and the multimelta is replaced with a heavy bolter. Lots of squishy-killing fire downrange at 24", even more at 12". Twin-linked, etc etc.

 

A 5-man setup would allow me more squads, but remove the ability to combat squad. I'd also get more sergeants and attack bikes, as well as more special weapons. I haven't done the exact math on how many 5-model squads I could buy for the cost of one 8-man, but I think it's 1.5:1, or thereabouts. Less if I start buying a lot of special weapons. The extra attack bikes allow me to soak single wounds for a while, as well. But, this setup suffers in the killpoint arena, because they lack the ability to stay large for fewer killpoints.

 

Other units in the army would be the bike captain, a pair of tacticals in Rhinos (for defensive posture, or for claiming objectives placed above ground level), at least one Landspeeder, and a pair of Dakkapreds.

 

How are other folks fielding their bike squads in a biker-centric list?

[Gornall]

I'm fine-tuning my "dream list", and trying to select which form of bike squads I want to plan for. The part I'm having trouble with is selecting whether I want to run them in a max squad of 8 with an attack bike, or in a unit of 4 with attack bike. Both would be under a Biker Captain, which makes both scoring.

The 8-man setup gives me a sergeant, two meltaguns, and a multimelta attack bike in an anti-tank setup, with the rest as vanilla bikers. Hefty points, but able to be combat squadded. I also have plans for an anti-infantry setup where the meltaguns are replaced with flamers (or plasmaguns) and the multimelta is replaced with a heavy bolter. Lots of squishy-killing fire downrange at 24", even more at 12". Twin-linked, etc etc.

 

A 5-man setup would allow me more squads, but remove the ability to combat squad. I'd also get more sergeants and attack bikes, as well as more special weapons. I haven't done the exact math on how many 5-model squads I could buy for the cost of one 8-man, but I think it's 1.5:1, or thereabouts. Less if I start buying a lot of special weapons. The extra attack bikes allow me to soak single wounds for a while, as well. But, this setup suffers in the killpoint arena, because they lack the ability to stay large for fewer killpoints.

 

Other units in the army would be the bike captain, a pair of tacticals in Rhinos (for defensive posture, or for claiming objectives placed above ground level), at least one Landspeeder, and a pair of Dakkapreds.

 

How are other folks fielding their bike squads in a biker-centric list?

 

 

I run Vulkan Bikers at 2000+ (shame on me... I know) and I have found that you want to keep your anti-tank squads fairly small, simply to reduce wasted shots. However, your anti-infantry squads can be a little larger and still remain efficient. What I have found works the best is 5 man squads + AB. This gives you a Sarg, 2 Special Weapons, 2 wounds, and the AB. That's 4 buckets of wounds, which can really help you to play wound allocation games and last a bit longer. It's also easier to give small squads cover and manuever them around easier. Yeah, KP missions are tough, but at least you're not having to deal with Rhinos/DPs giving up free KPs like crazy.

[Ming]

I have not invested in bikes, but I have some somewhere....

 

I like your use of a 8-bike squad that gives the option to combat squad. I say go for 10...and practise using them better to get the most out of them. Know when to keep them concentrated. Keep them away from the enemy chargers so you get the charge. Make sure you are tooled up for CC success. Get that sergeant a relic blade or something so you can hit at I4. MM or HF attack bikes, MG or FL bikes.

[ShinyRhino]

I have not invested in bikes, but I have some somewhere....

 

I like your use of a 8-bike squad that gives the option to combat squad. I say go for 10...and practise using them better to get the most out of them. Know when to keep them concentrated. Keep them away from the enemy chargers so you get the charge. Make sure you are tooled up for CC success. Get that sergeant a relic blade or something so you can hit at I4. MM or HF attack bikes, MG or FL bikes.

 

I do like the ability to combat squad the bikes into a 5-man bolter force and the 3+Attack Bike. I always put the specials in with the attack bike. The sergeant goes with the bolter bikers, since he's got the power weapon to cause some damage as a speedbump if needed.

There's not really such a thing as close combat success on a bike squad, unless it's a command squad on bikes, and that's even more expensive. The relic blade is a maybe, though I'm not sure if he can take one. Powerfist at best.

No heavy flamers on attack bikes.

Standard flamers are ok on regular bikes, but I really don;t like having to get them that close to anything worth flamer-ing. Anything that vulnerable comes in a big box (Ork Mobz), or requires zooming by a LOT of big baddies. I think I kinda prefer the plasmagun route, though the risk of losing a man to Gets Hot! is even heavier than usual due to the points cost of the model.

[ShinyRhino]

I run Vulkan Bikers at 2000+ (shame on me... I know) and I have found that you want to keep your anti-tank squads fairly small, simply to reduce wasted shots. However, your anti-infantry squads can be a little larger and still remain efficient. What I have found works the best is 5 man squads + AB. This gives you a Sarg, 2 Special Weapons, 2 wounds, and the AB. That's 4 buckets of wounds, which can really help you to play wound allocation games and last a bit longer. It's also easier to give small squads cover and manuever them around easier. Yeah, KP missions are tough, but at least you're not having to deal with Rhinos/DPs giving up free KPs like crazy.

 

Interesting. How many total squads do you end up with in an army that big, and how are they supported? How do you defend your own objective with such small squads taking incoming fire?

[Resv]

The problem I have with bikes in squads of 5 is pretty much the exact problem I have with Tactical Troops in squads of 5, the lack of bodies. Five bikes, though with T5, don't represent enough staying power to me for a scoring unit or their price. Buying up the unit to a full 8 with an Attack Bike seems like a big investment, and it really is between buying the models and points involved, but there is a huge payout in what you can do with this unit.

 

A note on Combat squadding with bikes. Support is one of the biggest things to learn when playing with a bike unit. In the right circumstances the mutual support offered can be of a huge benefit. When playing heavily meched out units I have a trick I like to pull. Take a 5 bike combat squad with Sargent (however you want him set up) and a Flamer. Back this unit up with 3 bikes, one with a melta, and an Attack Bike with a Multi-Melta. The Meltas can pop armor while being screened by the 5 Bikers. Better yey whenever a transport goes down The 5 man unit is free to engage with Bolters and flamer and then assault. Leaving the Second Squad in a position to counter assault adding in the extra weight if needed. I don't do this all the time but every now and then I'm able to accomplish quite a bit.

 

Lastly, if you don't move your bikes every turn to make the best of the battle field you are wasting one of their most precious assets.

[Gornall]

Interesting. How many total squads do you end up with in an army that big, and how are they supported? How do you defend your own objective with such small squads taking incoming fire?

 

The 2000pt list I'm running right now has three 5-man Biker squads with MGx2, MM AB, and basic Sgts with one full-sized squad with the same setup except the Sarge is upgraded to a PF. This gives me four base scoring units (and 8 MG and 4 MM), five if I'm not worried about KPs. They are supported by my Bike Captain with Relic Blade, a LR( C ) (depending on my mood) Vulkan, 6 TH/SS Termies, and two squads of MM/HF Landspeeders. I'll be the first to admit the list lacks a degree of staying power, but it is as mobile an army as they come and able to dish out a lot of hurt. The key is to keep the Bikes out of harm's way as much as possible through screening with the LR/terrain or by using the TH/SS Termies/Vulkan to clean up anything that wants to assault the Bikes. You really have to stick together and keep local superiority at all times as you can't afford fair fights with so few models. I also play wound allocation games as much as possible with the small squad size to gain a little extra staying power. Having 4-5 buckets in a 5 man group of T5 can really frustrate your opponent as you can often stack wounds and have a measure of a control of who dies. Also I try to keep the pressure on my opponent as much as possible where they have to focus on killing Vulkan/Termies/LR/Speeders before focusing on the Bikes themselves. I never try to defend my home objective until Turn 4-5. The mobility allows me to take the fight to the opponent before turbo-boosting onto objectives/table quarters at the last second. I can't outlast my opponent, but I can generally make them die a whole lot faster.

 

One problem I have with combat squading is that the AB squadron only has 4 guys in it, and depending on how you set it up may not have a single extra wound to dump if you get hit with a Lascannon. That and not having a Sarg in one of the squads hurts. I would much rather take my lumps in KP missions for the extra special weapons and Sarg. If I'm spending the points on Bikes so I can have fast, mobile, relentless shooting, I really want something worth shooting on there. With small squads, you can still support each other, but can also do it with more umph from the melta guns/flamers/etc. However, part of my opinion is colored by Vulkan, where those weapons all become twin-linked for free. Without him in the equation, those weapons become less valuable, so you might do better with 1-2 of the larger squads for all the benefits you mentioned.

 

I wholeheartedly agree about keeping mobile each turn. You should be keeping your opponent around 19-24" at all times so they can't get RF/Melta shots on you or assault you. I think small sizes help in this regard, as they allow you to squeeze into small safe zones or utilize cover effectively. It's VERY hard to give a full 9-man squad of Bikes cover. However, with a 5 man squad, simply poke the AB and a melta around a corner while the other three hide out and you're good to go.

 

Just some things that I found work for me... YMMV.

[Warp Angel]

The problem I have with bikes in squads of 5 is pretty much the exact problem I have with Tactical Troops in squads of 5, the lack of bodies. Five bikes, though with T5, don't represent enough staying power to me for a scoring unit or their price. Buying up the unit to a full 8 with an Attack Bike seems like a big investment, and it really is between buying the models and points involved, but there is a huge payout in what you can do with this unit.

 

A note on Combat squadding with bikes. Support is one of the biggest things to learn when playing with a bike unit. In the right circumstances the mutual support offered can be of a huge benefit. When playing heavily meched out units I have a trick I like to pull. Take a 5 bike combat squad with Sargent (however you want him set up) and a Flamer. Back this unit up with 3 bikes, one with a melta, and an Attack Bike with a Multi-Melta. The Meltas can pop armor while being screened by the 5 Bikers. Better yey whenever a transport goes down The 5 man unit is free to engage with Bolters and flamer and then assault. Leaving the Second Squad in a position to counter assault adding in the extra weight if needed. I don't do this all the time but every now and then I'm able to accomplish quite a bit.

 

Lastly, if you don't move your bikes every turn to make the best of the battle field you are wasting one of their most precious assets.

 

The thoughts above pretty much reflect my own. Although since I use my bikes primarily as anti-infantry/elites with an attached Captain, I almost never combat squad. If I do, it's somewhat along the lines above.

[Duce]

What about using a command squad with 4 special weapons and an apoth or 3 special weapons and a company champion and apoth.

 

The FNP works for rerolling wounds taken by plasmagun overheats right? if so putting 4 plasma guns and racing into 12inch for rapid fire could prove nasty for enemies, even more so with a captain on bike with plasma weapon or hellfire rounds in his bike.

 

the company champion and 3 would be useful for taking charges or cc, but then you are mixing it a little to much i suppose.

 

I'd thought about squads of 8 with 2 melta guns, sgt with power fist and an attack bike with MM. Three of these squads makes a nice core and then supplement them with two squads of heavy bolter or MM attack bikes. though i'm torn which would be better since you already have 9 meltas.

[ShinyRhino]

What about using a command squad with 4 special weapons and an apoth or 3 special weapons and a company champion and apoth.

 

The FNP works for rerolling wounds taken by plasmagun overheats right? if so putting 4 plasma guns and racing into 12inch for rapid fire could prove nasty for enemies, even more so with a captain on bike with plasma weapon or hellfire rounds in his bike.

 

the company champion and 3 would be useful for taking charges or cc, but then you are mixing it a little to much i suppose.

 

I'd thought about squads of 8 with 2 melta guns, sgt with power fist and an attack bike with MM. Three of these squads makes a nice core and then supplement them with two squads of heavy bolter or MM attack bikes. though i'm torn which would be better since you already have 9 meltas.

 

The quad-plasmagun Command Squad is sexy in any form, really. The FNP does work for Gets Hot! wounds. But such a squad is so expensive points-wise that it's risky. It'll attract a lot of heavy firepower, and anything that can take out a bike reliably is probably going to ignore the FNP AND your 3+ armor save (lascannons, Demolisher shots, plasma, etc etc). You'll have to be VERY careful with it.

 

If I were to go with the 3x melta biker squad mentioned above, I'd augment with Dakkaspeeders instead of attack bikes, actually. You need something that can fly up and contest objectives above ground level if you aren't going to include any foot troops.

[Ethrion]

I can categorically confirm the 4x plasma command works amazingly well.

 

But in terms of bike squad sizes I find the best is to pay for 2 more bikes making it 5 strong + and attack bike and there you have an tough little tank hunter squadron with 2 ablative wounds to get you across the table safely.

[Warp Angel]

That assumes that you're using them almost exclusively as tank hunters.

 

And you wind up with a squad that's vulnerable to losing it's weapons quickly, isn't very good in an assault (making or receiving), and can't effectively dual purpose itself as an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit by utilizing the awesome ability to throw a stupidly high number of twin linked bolter shots 24" downrange.

 

Nothing wrong with small squads used for tank hunting, although I prefer 3 attack bikes to a small bike squad in that role.

[Ethrion]

Of course, in this role (only 5 bikes) I was meaning them to be tank hunters. And to be honest any unit is vulnerable to losing its weapons quickly, the 2 extra bikers are added just to try and raise their survivability just a fraction.

 

Technically the bikes should max out to a full squad to be proper anti-infantry killers but that was kind of going against the OP I thought as it seemed the OP wanted the bike squadron to be smaller.

 

And definitely, attack bikes as a trio would be a much better tank hunting unit, but again I thought the OP wasn't going down this route.

 

p.s. It's late here and I probably was quite brief with my post that certainly I should have elaborated on more. :(

[Gornall]

That assumes that you're using them almost exclusively as tank hunters.

 

And you wind up with a squad that's vulnerable to losing it's weapons quickly, isn't very good in an assault (making or receiving), and can't effectively dual purpose itself as an anti-infantry/anti-horde unit by utilizing the awesome ability to throw a stupidly high number of twin linked bolter shots 24" downrange.

 

Nothing wrong with small squads used for tank hunting, although I prefer 3 attack bikes to a small bike squad in that role.

 

3 MM ABs are definately cheaper and better for a pure tank-hunting role. However, one thing they can't do is score. That's the benefit of the 2 MG and MM AB squad (not to mention wound allocation games... I always have a extra guy to eat the first Instant Death wound that comes along). Bikes are terribad in assault no matter how you slice it, and can't safely attempt most assaults because of dangerous terrain checks. They need to manuever away from assaulty enemies or have support from assault elements or they're going to have problems. Nothing works quite as well as popping a transport with your bikes, leaving the passengers in a smoking crater to be charged by TH/SS Termies. The bikes are free to move and shoot and don't have to risk their lives in terrain and the TH/SS get to crunch whatever was in the crater. I also like small units, simply because if they do get caught in an assault, they die on my opponents turn, allowing me to return fire on mine.

 

For me, I like the smaller squads, simply because I can bring more meltas to bear on my enemy (Vulkan ftw). However, without Vulkan, I think larger squads (that can be combat squadded as needed) become more useful as the meltas aren't as big of an "IWIN" button.

[ShinyRhino]

Of course, in this role (only 5 bikes) I was meaning them to be tank hunters. And to be honest any unit is vulnerable to losing its weapons quickly, the 2 extra bikers are added just to try and raise their survivability just a fraction.

 

Technically the bikes should max out to a full squad to be proper anti-infantry killers but that was kind of going against the OP I thought as it seemed the OP wanted the bike squadron to be smaller.

 

No, I actually lean more toward the 8-man squad. Iwas just curious if the benefits of the 5-man were worthwhile. I reallylike the ability to combat squad them. I get smoked like salmon in Kill Point games. Having the 8-man unit gives my opponent fewer possible killpoints in that one guaranteed Annihilation mission every tournament. the hard part for me is determining if the extra killiness of the 5-man units, with thier extra sergeant and specials, balances out the mandatory extra killpoints they can give up.

I can hold my own in an objective fight, especially when playing the "Turn 5 Tactica" angle (basically, keeping your bikes alive and in position for a fifth-turn turbo-boost onto objectives to contest or claim them.

 

And definitely, attack bikes as a trio would be a much better tank hunting unit, but again I thought the OP wasn't going down this route.

 

Correct. I don't currently own enough attack bikes to do this, I think. I'll have to recount the sidecars in my bikers bitz bag.