List Analysis thread

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Recently i was asked in a PM to share my list. I figured if i was going to talk about it, i might as well post up my response for the rest of you and get a thread going.

 

So, post up your list and talk a bit about it, how it runs, and how you like it. This isn't a list critique thread, which is why i'm putting it here not in the lists forum. If people want to discuss my list thats great, but i'm not really looking to be told whats good and whats bad in it and that i should be running pms and berzerkers. I already know the pros and cons. This is the thread for you to talk about your lists and why you run them as they are.

 

Mods, if you feel this must go in the list discussion forum then by all means move it there. But i'd prefer it to stay here, as that forum is much less read and is more used for list critiquing.

 

The original PM:

 

Hey, do you mind sharing your list??

 

Since the group I will be playing is mainly mech SM, i'd be keen on a list such as yours

 

Sure. I have 2 armies i play, an undivided list that is more competitive minded and a pure slaanesh list, that is less competitive due to being specialized. The undivided one is pretty standard (DPs, zerks/Pms, oblits) and you can learn about it from other threads. I'll share the slaanesh one though.

 

This list has gone through several variations and will probably go through more as my tastes change. Currently its looking like this:

 

Totals: 1500 pts, 26 infantry, 4 armor, 10 kill points, 3 scoring units.

 

HQ - 315

 

165 - Daemon Prince: Wings, Wind of Chaos, Mark of Slaanesh (note that i more often run the prince with warptime, leaving me 5 extra points, but i've put wind down as that bring it to 1500)

150 - Sorcerer: Wings, Lash of Submission, Melta Bombs, Mark of Slaanesh

 

Troops - 660

 

260 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster x4, Rhino

260 - Noise Marines x8: Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Sonic Blaster x4, Rhino

 

140 - Noise Marines x5: Blastmaster

 

Heavy Support - 525

 

150 - Defiler: Close Combat Weapons

150 - Defiler: Close Combat Weapons

225 - Obliterator x3

 

 

As you can see, this list uses a very small number of guys. 26 infantry is low, especially considering that you can stick as many as 80 into 1500 points. Here's a breakdown of the pros and cons of this list:

 

Pros :

 

- Lots of highly threatening units. Every unit in the army except for the blastmaster objective campering squad packs a tone of firepower. The defilers and prince will both eat anything short of assault terminators in close combat. The defilers and oblits are lethal to everything with their shooting. The noise marines have enough dakka and manueverability to threaten hordes, and the doom siren which roasts meqs and hordes. This is a chaoszilla list with a slaanesh twist.

 

- Tons of templates. 2 battlecannons, 2 doom sirens, 1 blast master, and potentially 3 plasma cannons from the oblits is a lot of area of effect. This will take down any sort of infantry through sheer weight of wounds.

 

- Lots of anti meq. All those templates are at least ap3. Being meq and not in cover is suicide. The doom siren squads will regularly 1 volley bunched up tac squads, such as if they have just exited a transport or been lashed.

 

- Mechanized means i have movement advantages against footsloggers. Green tide, horde nid, and footslogging black templars are a joke to this list.

 

- Initiative 5 means going first in most close combats. The HQs will also go before enemy HQs. Again this is primarily an anti meq thing though.

 

Cons:

 

- Small model count. Those noise marines are expensive, but they die as easy as stuff 10 points cheaper. This list has a very low threshold when it comes to recovering from mistakes or really bad dice rolls. On the other hand, the templates mean there is a lot of potential for opponents to have bad luck as you simply force so many rolls.

 

- Medium anti armor capability. 3 oblits is nice, as is the daemon prince. The defilers help a bit. But this list simply doesn't have the anti tank to deal with something like armor heavy guard. Its reliance on vehicles also means that if your opponent has a lot of anti tank (or just lucky rolls) you'll be down to just your infantry pretty fast. You rely on mobility, so losing your defilers and rhinos too quickly will make you a sitting duck. The lack of powerfists on the noise marine squads can also leave them vulnerable to walkers and MCs. Land raider rush can also be dicey, but the defilers can do nasty things to them.

 

- Inefficiency vs non-meq. This list struggles with deathwing as the oblits are the only proper anti TEQ. Hordes you can manage due to the amount of templates, but your low model count really shows.

 

There are probably some other pros and cons, but those are the main points.

 

Tactics:

 

This is not an assault list. It is a hybrid list. Its not bad in assault, but its not berserkers or death company. Likewise, it has nice shooting, but its not sternguard. The proper way to use this list is to soften them with shooting then deliver the killing blow in CC. The ideal progression of the game is to hang back in the beginning, using your defilers to shield your rhinos and DPs. Often i just run the defilers at them as they are mainly there to be big fat targets. While they deal with the defilers, the oblits open up their transports. Then i just walk my noise marines over and drop a doom siren on the squad, and its over. Rinse and repeat. The DP either hunts their support (either infantry or armor) or is kept back a bit and used to counter charge to keep the noise marines from getting tied up in prolonged assaults.

 

Let me make it clear that this list is about the doom sirens. Everything about it is used to get them into the position to deal their maximum damage. This isn't a standard lash list. The lash is often used more defensively than it would be used in a lash+berzerker list. I use it to keep elite CC units away while i whittle them down, or i use it to overextend units. It can be used to clump things for template death, but i find this often isn't needed.

 

A big design of this list is that you've got enough firepower that it isn't safe for them to get out of their transports. Rhino rushing (move 12, disembark, shoot) is suicide as you are left vulnerable to the sirens on the next turn. So opponent need to move up but then stay in their rhinos and go for an assault the next turn. When they do this i will often either pull back and see if my oblits can pop their transport, or i'll just ram a defiler into their face.

 

I don't think this list is going to win me any tournaments, as a lot of more experienced players with better lists won't let me run rings around them. But it is a very fun list to play with a lot of strategic options.

[Corpse.]

I'll bite. Since I can't sleep, and have nothing better to do. (I lay my head down for a minute after work and wake up at 12am, figures...)

 

A list I have not quite mastered. It includes normally these units:

-(2-6)10PM Inside a rhino, powerfist champ with combi flamer(some lists I forgo the combiflamers), 2 meltas in the unit and sometimes a combi-melta on the rhino.

-(0-3) Lesser daemons, normally size 15 if not less due to the game limit.

-Daemon Prince, loadouts varies I have 12 princes (all are conversions, I'm not mad to buy all those).

-1-2 Raiders, for larger games.

-Dakka predator, AC/HB/Havoc Launcher. I can remove side sponsons to add a dirge caster so it can move+fire.

-Laspredator, TLLC/LC, as above with removable side sponsons to use dirge caster when I want to.

-Nurgle icon: Raptors/Bikes, mainly as the largest squad size I can manage to abuse the icon's expensive cost.

-Terminators and obliterators for a list variation I use from time to time.

-Dreadnoughts with twin melee weapons and defilers with 4 melee weapons for a different variation (chaos-zilla).

-Greater daemon. (Honestly the only time I use my great unclean one is in this army and not my daemon force).

-Too many chaos lords with removable shoulder pads to indicate marks that I want. (Cut down the magnet, add to hallow inner chest cavity, instant metal shoulderpad clinger+groove slots)

-Vindicator, can be possessed, I normally dont though.

 

Average game is 2000 points, often get challenged for 1750 tourny and 1850 classic tourny games. I do not try gimmicks for 1k lists and try to play standard at that level (1k/1250).

 

Chaos Zilla, Plaguespear, Deep strike army, Transport jerking and mixforce.

 

Chaos Zilla (1500+) includes dreadnoughts and defilers, 2 plague marine units, 1 or two princes and a greater daemon. I may remove some plague marines in one squad to include a 3rd rhino unit with a bare bones champ in a variation list.

 

Plaguespear, classic with a raider (or two at 2250+), all the rhinos and men I can muster with 2 chaos lords(terminator usually). Two chaos lords normally inside the raider, since having 5 terminators isnt that great compared to lords inside a transport. Given that it has a limited transport capacity.

 

Deep strike army. I got used to daemons and I sort of like the idea of pounding away at the enemy. Normally 3-4 units of plague marines at 2k, maybe some raptors/bikes with 1 or more units of daemons and the rest as I please it to be for the time. Being able to run with marines after exiting a rhino sets me dangerously close to the enemy, and sometimes turbo boosting with bikes couldnt get me closer to the enemy with a good roll. (Beware the chaos daemon units).

 

Transport jerking is splicing the units to fill all 6 troop choices in 1500+, adding daemons(like above) with chaos lords spread conveniently around the force. Obliterators and greater daemon usually make their debut here in these lists. Abusing LoS and having a fat daemon protect my dudes.

[DooshSahaal]

Firstly i wanna say that i think this a cool idea for a thread. Attempting to critique the same CSM lists over and over again gets a little overbearing when everyones' running mech/DP/zerk lists. It's kinda refreshing to just take a look at why people field what they field and what they with it. I can see a lot of characterful lists coming into this thread if all goes well (:

 

oh and, i just want to say, Drudge, your list sounds like awesome fun to play/play against. making slaanesh work in 4th ed?! ;) i think you pull it off pretty well. I hope those defilers look all sadistic-like xD

 

anywho, about my list. It's a fluff-saturated list, Salamander successors who turned renegade and worship khorne now. fire and blood... eyyy :D

i only have the models for 1000pt games, but my opponents don't mind a little proxy when it comes to 1.5k or 2k games.

 

i think the most fluffy of the lists is the 2000pt list, so i'll show you that one. the 1.5k is minus the dreads and havocs... and the 1k is minus the Khârn counts-as and zerks on top of that.

 

here goes:

 

The Incinerators

 

total points: 1993pts, 46 infantry, 6 armour, 3 scoring units.

 

HQ: 420pts

 

Chaos Lord: MoK, Pair of LC's, Jump Pack, Meltabombs

Khârn: "counts as"

Greater Daemon

 

Elites: 240pts

 

2x Dreadnoughts w/ extra DCCW, heavy flamer and extra armour

 

Troops: 793pts

 

10 CSMs: IoK, 2 flamers, aspiring champ w/ powerfist... naked rhino

10 CSMs: IoK, 2 flamers, aspiring champ w/ powerfist... naked rhino (i hate cookie cutting but the squads are soo goooood xD)

8 Berzerkers: skull champ w/ powerfist... naked rhino

 

Fast Attack: 290pts

 

10 Raptors: IoK, 2 meltaguns, aspiring champ w/ powerfist (some ask: why use a powerfist on the champ when you have meltas?... i say: we don't have hit n run anymore and i fight Ven Dreads!)

 

Heavy Support: 255pts

 

5 Havocs: IoK, 5 meltaguns, aspiring champ w/ combi-melta and powerfist... rhino with daemonic possession

 

I can't resist telling you why i picked some of the things i did, because some of you are probly ":P"-ing right about now.

-the 5 havocs are salamander veterans who turned to chaos with the chapter, and renounced the emperor, but still feel shame for betraying their brothers. they wear robes and fiercly abide by the Sallies way of.. setting everything on fire xD

-the dreads and the Khârn counts-as are various bloodthirsty individuals who have cheated death. One dread is the old chapter master, and he's gone a bit nutty.

-The greater daemon is the daemon that the Incinerators have dealt with in chaotic contracts since the day of their fall from the Emperor's grace.

 

Pros:

-ATTACKS! so many attacks.... i can rely on almost every unit to eviscerate any green tide or horde nids that come their way. I don't have an amazingly high infantry count for a 2000pt army but the attacks make up for it when put in the right place. Everything from orks to grey knights to smurfinators have turned to slush before either the Chaos Lord and his raptors or (surprisingly) the Khornate CSMs.

 

-It's scary! My opponents are generally worried when they face me. They know that Khorne grants his subjects numerous attacks and they know that dreads hurt! They also can smell the havocs zipping up the flank, and make bad decisions based on panic... since everything in the army is mean on it's own.

 

-Mobility. The force is fairly manueverable, with the Lord and his wings, the CSMs/zerks/"Khârn"/Havocs and their rhinos, and the GD has wings. The only thing left in the dust is my poor dreads ;) unless they go a bit crazy! :P

 

-Good anti-tank. Not many of my regular opponents field a large amount of vehicles.. and i'm starting to think it's because i'd pop them right open. 2 meltas with the raptors, powerfists in every squad, the GD, the dreads, "Khârn", potentially 5 melta shots with the Havocs... armour almost pops itself in a fair few cases. The Khornate CSMs are generally steered away from vehicles, but they have powerfists just incase.

 

Cons:

-Horrendously low amount of scoring units. I am a 3rd Ed player at heart.. and i couldn't make a hundred squads of infantry just because 4th ed wills it! I address the problem on the tabletop by resisting the urge to charge the Khornate CSMs forward to glory and bloodshed unless absolutely nessecary. It can be irritating when they aren't on the frontline, but they're big boys and don't usually fail me. and by fail.. i mean die xD

 

-Low amounts of infantry in general. I have gone a little zilla with the dread duo and GD, hence minimizing my insane attack potential at 2000pts, but the army's fluffy so i guess i can't complain if i'm not willing to change it.

 

-Very vulnerable to firepower. Rhinos are rhinos... not fabulously thick when it comes to resisting missiles, cannons, and other nasty projectiles. The dreads are also critically vulnerable, but that's all part of the plan... Most of my army rocks 4 in the toughness and a 3+ save. Hailing fire from necrons, space marines and surprisingly orks has hurt me before. Haven't got any big guns of doom to counteract it... just manpower!

 

-Not great against TEQs. My meltas can't be everywhere at once, and str 4 can only get you so far sometimes. Again, i haven't got any heavy guns or anything to cover my infantry.

 

Tactics:

 

My Khornate renegades are... you guessed it: an assault army! My tactics are fairly straightforward, really. The rhinos advance with their payload of killyness ("Khârn" rides with zerks.. no surprises there) whilst the raptors and lord with jump pack advance along a flank under the cover of a rhino (usually a CSM squad's rhino). the dreads do whatever they decide and basically attract firepower. a few occasions have seen them survive til the very last turn of the game, whilst other times they have been blown up or immobilized on turn 1. it's a mixed-bag with them, but they're a lot of fun.

The havocs generally hail the GD from the warp, because they can easily serve their tank-popping purpose without a champ.

 

It's really, really straightforward now that i think about it xD

 

Most of the my rhino-based mobility is spent on getting into cover/advantageous positions to flame with my CSMs before charging and unleashing their unholy 4 attacks per model on the charge. Failing that, they hold objectives or pepper holes in things whilst the raptors and zerkers deal with the nastiest that my opponent has to offer.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

-Doosh

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Firstly i wanna say that i think this a cool idea for a thread. Attempting to critique the same CSM lists over and over again gets a little overbearing when everyones' running mech/DP/zerk lists. It's kinda refreshing to just take a look at why people field what they field and what they with it. I can see a lot of characterful lists coming into this thread if all goes well (:

 

oh and, i just want to say, Drudge, your list sounds like awesome fun to play/play against. making slaanesh work in 4th ed?! i think you pull it off pretty well. I hope those defilers look all sadistic-like xD

 

Thanks! I'm afraid the defilers don't, but thats only because they aren't done! This list has about 30 games played so far. The first 10 were proxy games while i was deciding if i wanted to build the army. Now i am slowly building and painting it up and replacing proxies from my undivided army. You can check it out in the link in my sig.

 

I very much like the style of your list as well. Its a great theme, and i'm glad we're not leaving it just to loyalists to have!

[grimz]

Great thread, I love the fallen Sallies chapter nice work!

 

I'm wondering about dreads... I hate that they are so random, even trying to mitigate their randomness with the rules as written interpretation they still seem a bit iffy.

 

Are there any times when you have really regretted taking them, or times when your so glad that they have?

[Smurfalypse]

Great post, very good read, fun looking list. Love to see those oddball lists. Its refreshing to see things that arnt the norm.

 

Some ideas to tweek your list though....JOKE :)

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

I run Raider Rush at any and all points levels.

 

At 750:

DP, MoN, Wings, WT

7 CSM, Rhino

8 Zerk, AC, PF

Raider, Dozer

 

At 1000:

DP, Wings, WT

2x Raider, Dozer

8 Zerk, AC, PF

7 Zerk, AC, PF

 

At 1500

DP, Wings, WT

Termicide (3)

2x10 Zerk, AC, PF

1x10 CSM, Melta, Flamer, AC, PF, Rhino

2x Raider

 

At 1750 (standard for this build):

DP, Wings, WT

Termicide (3)

2x10 Zerk, AC, PF

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Melta, Rhino

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Flamer, Rhino

2x Raider, Dozer

 

At 1850:

DP, Wings, WT

2xTermicide (3)

2x10 Zerk, AC, PF

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Melta, Rhino

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Flamer, Rhino

Raider, Dozer

Raider

 

At 2000:

2xDP, Wings, WT

2xTermicide (3)

2x10 Zerk, AC, PF

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Melta, Rhino

1x10 CSM, AC, PF, 2x Flamer, Rhino

2x Raider

 

Tactically, it can be either a really in-your-face army, just rushing forward 12" at turn, or it can sit for a few turns and shoot LCs until the Termicide comes and kills something nasty so the zerks have a clear assault.