Cpt_Reaper Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I am so annoyed at my Knights being shot to pieces while my TDA Knights ride my few LRs in relative safety. Are there any transports (Imperial Armour or otherwise) that allows my PAGKs to move in relative safety? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Nope. 3 LR are the maximum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2105687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 ally in some IG then use their transports, thats your only option Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2105740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 ally in some IG then use their transports, thats your only option Indeed. Truly, the pure GK army of 4th edition is not a viable army anymore. People are finally starting to learn that mech >> footslogging, and the armies we are facing are finally showing this. If you can't beat 'em, you have to join 'em. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2105838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmouredWing Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 People are finally starting to learn that mech >> footslogging, and the armies we are facing are finally showing this. If you can't beat 'em, you have to join 'em. ...Not all of us 6, not all of us... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2105861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Indeed. Horde can trump Mech. The bane of my Pure GK these days is Horde Orks. Can't kill enough of them to matter, and most options I've seen for GK army builds do not address the low overall throw-weight our lower model count tends to create. However, I have been working on an experimental list for improved anti-tank and anti-horde in a Mech 'Hunter list, one I refer to as a "Shake and Bake" list: (344pts) GM + 4x GKT w/ 1x Incinerator (159pts) 5x Celestians w/ 2x Meltaguns + Immolator w/ Smoke. Light :D (160pts) Justicar + 4x Knights w/ 1x Incinerator ;) (160pts) Justicar + 4x Knights w/ 1x Incinerator :Fast: (159pts) 5x Dominions w/ 2x Meltaguns + Immolator w/ Smoke. Light (258pts) GK LR Crusader w/ Smoke (255pts) GK Land RAider w/ Extra Armour (255pts) GK Land RAider w/ Extra Armour 1750pts even, 30 models, 11 Kill Points, 1 Faith Point (not really needed), tons of S5 template goodness mixed in with anti-tank dakka, etc. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2106596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Indeed. Horde can trump Mech. The bane of my Pure GK these days is Horde Orks. Can't kill enough of them to matter, and most options I've seen for GK army builds do not address the low overall throw-weight our lower model count tends to create. However, I have been working on an experimental list for improved anti-tank and anti-horde in a Mech 'Hunter list, one I refer to as a "Shake and Bake" list: (344pts) GM + 4x GKT w/ 1x Incinerator (159pts) 5x Celestians w/ 2x Meltaguns + Immolator w/ Smoke. Light :lol: (160pts) Justicar + 4x Knights w/ 1x Incinerator :P (160pts) Justicar + 4x Knights w/ 1x Incinerator :Fast: (159pts) 5x Dominions w/ 2x Meltaguns + Immolator w/ Smoke. Light (258pts) GK LR Crusader w/ Smoke (255pts) GK Land RAider w/ Extra Armour (255pts) GK Land RAider w/ Extra Armour 1750pts even, 30 models, 11 Kill Points, 1 Faith Point (not really needed), tons of S5 template goodness mixed in with anti-tank dakka, etc. SJ its not pure GK, it doesnt count :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2107126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
damn-you-lorry Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Are there any transports (Imperial Armour or otherwise) that allows my PAGKs to move in relative safety? Inquisitorial Valkyries from the IA2 update. Now these Valkyries are identical to the new IG ones. If you are lucky, your PAGK may charge the opponent on the turn 1 :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2107255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Are there any transports (Imperial Armour or otherwise) that allows my PAGKs to move in relative safety? Inquisitorial Valkyries from the IA2 update. Now these Valkyries are identical to the new IG ones. If you are lucky, your PAGK may charge the opponent on the turn 1 :P Unless the IA Valks are dedicated transports. In which case, that'd be impossible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2107285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhawk Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 IMHO another option would be as follows: <HQ> -INQ Lord + Retinue (most probably "Firebase") --Razorback or Land Raider <TROOPS> 2x IST Squad in 2x Chimera. ,FAST ATTACK> 3x PAGK Teleport Attack Squads Optional GKT Hero with GKT Retinue in deep strike to enable the fielding of Dreadnoughts While this may fail in tournament or against tooled-up powergaming lists, in casual gaming such a list might even work. Has anyone tried this? I'm seriously thinking about playing with it. Got inspired by Vraks 3 ^^ We don't have dedicated transports for Grey Knights, true, athough we have teleporting for FREE and this might really be our best way of getting somewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2107304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Aside form giving the obvious reply that you really should DS your termies and put the PAGK in your LRs, there is another, completely illegal but oh-so-logical option: simply allow regular transports (certainly Rhinos and DPs - RBs not so much) to your PAGK squads. Yes yes, I know, heresy blah-blah-blah, but it's the only logical step I can see. Remember our dex was written before anyone had DPs, now they are the bread and butter of many a SM list. And it's fully conform the candid lore on GK AFAIK. And imho it sure beats borrowing/stealing gear from other lists just through the maxim of "Apoc Solves All" (which it does). And while we're on it, DPs for your dreds, too. There, problem solved, and technically still a pure GK list. Though I realise this won't net you squat in tourneys. But neither does Apoc. EDIT: Oh, and Alaric rides a Thunderhawk to get planetside. Expensive model, but technically also an option. Incl. free battle cannon. Oompf. LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2107511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakehunter52 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Indeed. Horde can trump Mech. The bane of my Pure GK these days is Horde Orks. Can't kill enough of them to matter, and most options I've seen for GK army builds do not address the low overall throw-weight our lower model count tends to create. True that. Our Grey Knights are know to be absolutely killer for IG and Ork armies because we hit so reliably and so hard and they have nothing armour saves but the points don't get earned back so it becomes more like a major inconvenience as opposed to legitimate threat. And pure horde, taking a kustom force field and two 30 boy squads with shootas, killer for us, even though we get a couple rounds of shooting before the crash. It's like an ice formation and all we got is a pick axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2108154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Indeed. And while I'm still a GK player at heart, it has come to the point where my local metagame is dictating that I step away from a pure list to add in either IST or allied Sisters to fill a dedicated anti-horde mobile screening element for my common GK mech list. On a personally note, I'm not too enthralled by the idea of IST, and would rather use Sisters for their better stat line and specific equipment choices. However, I do realize that that is just my baggage, and that IST work very well for others; everyone's mileage tends to very. Either way I look at it, I will need to cut back on my beloved Knights to add in non-GK units for a more balanced tournament list. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2108372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I'm kind of thrown by the opinions that GKs seem to systematically underperform against horde lists. I've done kind of well against my friend's 'nids, but he probably isn't a very competent general. My brother, against whom I regularly play, has recently acquired an Ork army, and I was rather looking forward to playing against it. Now you say it's practically impossible to win against them if they only take the right equipment (i.e. KFF). Technically, he could take two - one for each HQ slot - and make most of his army relatively immune to my shooting. Except for the psycannons I reckon, as they ignore inv. saves. Although I'm not sure why this is necessairly a problem only for "darn footsloggers", which this thread is about. I'm sure having a few transports around isn't going to help much against resilient horde armies. LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2109095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 My main issue is the my PAGK squads take ages to get to an objective, usually being cut off my vehicles and the like along the way. An example is when one of my squads was shot to pieces by both some firewarriors and a devilfish. I know they would have fared better if they had a transport to keep them safe for a few turns. I ended up using a inquisitorial stormtrooper squad to race to the objective and try to hold it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2109554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Thats totally right 11th Company Dark Master. GK in LR or Stormtroopers in Rhinos. There are only two options - sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2109750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Its not that they under perform versus horde lists; it's that they are not designed to take on armies with many huge squads. At 150pts for minimum squad of PAGK, they have 10 bolter shots at 24" and 11 attacks in close combat. For the same points, Orks can have 25 boyz with 25 slugga shots at 12" and 50 attacks in close combat (75 while charging). Not an equal exchange. If played correctly and in the right circumstances, the PAGK could whittle down the boyz by kiting back to keep the range open; however, a good Ork player will run when not in range, and charge whenever possible. Not an equal exchange. When we put our PAGK into Land Raiders, we negate the ability for the boyz to stop our GK's, yet the Ork player can take 250+ points of more units to every one Land Raider we take, while we lose out on the massed firepower needed to reduce 20+ squad size units. So we take Crusaders, and they take tanks, which our Crusaders are hard pressed to kill. We take GKT's, they take Nobz, etc. The winning strategy for us pure GK players becomes one of conservatism. We focus our firepower where and when we can, to the exclusion of everything else if needed, and we stay mobile (be it on foot or in a tank). We scoot, reduce, scoot, reduce, scoot, reduce, then engage in close combat to tarpit into our opponent's turn where we kill off the last models so that we can scoot and reduce all over again with the next unit. Or we tank shock, disembark, bolt & burn, assault, embark, tank shock, etc. We can win, we just need to play smart, reduce our errors, and exploit openings as they become apparent. Staying fluid means that we keep our options open, roll with the punches, pull our opponents into situation we dictate, etc. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2109783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 It is the kiting I have a problem with, fluffwise. I find it hard to picture warriors such as the mighty Grey Knights. running towards the enemy, shooting a bit the legging it back the way they came. It is almost as bad as a 20-man Black Templar squad making a run for it after loosing one guy. Sadly it sometimes has to be done, especially against the likes of Orks or Tyranids. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2110442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquid Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I find, agaisnt things like Orks an Tyranids I do this. I send my terminators and HQ far in front of the army, as a nice wall. Hopefully, they get multiple charged and other such wonders. Five terminators and a GM normally do pretty well, but them succeeding is not really necessary. While multiple opponent squads are held up, shoot those who are not. When the terminators Die, shoot and counter-charge and Victors. Has done pretty well for me against orks. One game, My terminators were charged by three slugga mobs due to a very good WAAAAGGHH on my opponents part. The terminators were wiped out from powerclaws, but killed a lot in return. In the proceeding couple of turns, my two PAGK squads and a dread wiped out the rest from shooting and a quick round of close combat. The rest of the army was much easier to deal with after that. Recently I've added a crusader in my list to hold onto one of my 10man PAGK units to keep 'em safe, while my terminators deepstrike. I often try to refuse flank when I can, and try to stay as mobile as I can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2110471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Tank shock a 25 man Ork Mob with a Land Raider, then get out with a 7 man squad of PAGK with 2 Incinerators and then assault, then get back to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2110623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Tank shock a 25 man Ork Mob with a Land Raider, then get out with a 7 man squad of PAGK with 2 Incinerators and then assault, then get back to me. Sure, that's a tactic that works for everyone, and one of the main Achilles' Heels of Orks (or any horde army). That said, it's not actually a tactic that PAGKs are especially good at: several armies (SM, CSM) are actually markedly better at this. Try comparing it to a similarly equipped unit of Plague Marines (who are mainly much more durable to melee damage) and you'll see what I mean. And it doens't get around the fact that GKs are severely over-costed against such hordes (you don't normally do enough damage against moderate horde units before they assault), nor around the Kustom Force Field conundrum. I appreciate that not all HAS to be lost against horde armies, but they do pose severe problems for pure GK forces, even moreso than many other armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2111690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Of course. And that is because playing an all GK army is further handicapping yourself while using an already underpowered list. Orks are strong against pretty much everyone other than Lash lists though, so it is not too bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178112-darn-footsloggers/#findComment-2111966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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