Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Kurgan the Lurker]

http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/200...ces-of-opinion/

 

Don't want to see any personal attacks here. Reply with common sense or your posts will be purged.

[DrDoom]

Off hand, I agree with him. I know this isn't a popular sentiment here, but I think the current CSM dex is fine. I don't think we need special rules to cover every peice of wargear we used to be able to field. I doubt this will do anything to silence the criticism though.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

To summarize, he's saying that the current codex was aimed at giving more options and less restrictions than the previous. He sees the previous codex's stuff like legion rules as being very restrictive. He also mentions that things like ancient enemies are too restrictive.

 

I do not understand this at all. The current codex has less possible unit makeups, far less possible competitive unit makeups, and due to the loss of the armory and daemonic gifts a fraction of the customization and options. He encourages using counts as, but this was just as possible with the old book allowing even more potential from it.

 

In short, he's saying that the new codex was given less content and definition to allow players to do what they want with it more. But it takes only a quick glance to realize that the previous codex still allowed for way more to be done even with its "restrictions".

[JamesI]

The only problem I have with the current dex is the fact that troops dedicated to a god are more potent than terminators or chosen of the same god (and the fact that expensive bonuses provided by Icons are so easy to elminate).

 

Other than that, the dex is fine.

[Night Lord Dred]

Honestly, this article just made me angry. He doesnt even realize why people are upset.

 

I dont want to get into it as itll just be one long angry rant, but I was really shaking my head at:

 

-Justification for daemons. Imperial Guard cant be used with SMs so Daemons shouldnt be used in CSM? I know he said the book is supposed to focus on CSM, but thats what seemed to be the reasoning. I dont/wouldnt even use daemons, but I feel for those that want to.

 

-His views on the old book. Legions were restrictive...great, so now we have one list that has minimal tweaking to it that can be run. This book is far more restrictive.

 

-And the worst point was being a flexible gamer. The argument that you can do whatever you feel like because its a game is ridiculous. IG with CSM? No one would EVER allow that, even in a friendly pickup game at the store or club. Why even pay 30 bucks for this codex then if I can just make rules up? He talks as if the codex isnt even relevant.

 

 

I cant say Im sad to not see him working there anymore if that is his attitude and views on the game.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm reading the comments on it. Lots of people are hitting on the relevant things that he missed.

[Corpse.]

I was unhappy I had to change my armies to be WYSIWYG-limiting to be something different then what I started the army intending to accomplish. I just changed to an alternate army type and style again and again until I found one I'm fine with. I changed myself for the hobby, and I couldn't represent what I wanted without official rules saying it's ok.

 

There are other parts of the "argument" or "debate" where people feel they should be well within the rules because they feel competitive not with their opponent but with themselves. Knowing what they make with their army is the same limit everyone else can take the same list as you and not be scolded for cheating. (Or feel like they cheated because they used units outside the rules like in Gav's examples)

 

I feel like I cheat if I use things outside the rules and I set very firm limits on myself so I don't ruin the feel of the game for myself. A guilt complex if it had to be put into words. If I found I moved a "Knight" in chess 1 square off 10 moves back, I'll forefit the game even if I'm about to win and it had nothing to do with me winning. I won't stand for an opponents attempt to smooth it over with "it's ok, I don't care" as just a slap in the face.

 

Lots of things GW considers, but in the end we're still subject to the rules. Because in the end, we face a new player (like we always do) the standard which we play them is by the rules. We don't go into a basketball game and expect to double-dribble often and feel like a winner. (Though, newcomers to the game are always an exception which is the second part of that example *accidental cheating*)

[Spacefrisian]

I doubt he will actually read those comments.

 

The current codex is kinda boring of you ask me, compared to Spacemarines and Imperial guard.

[DuskRaider]

I'm actually glad to see this. It definitely gives me new found respect for Gav Thorpe in that he actually took the time to touch on the issue and respond to it as well, something which Jervis and GW won't do. Do I agree with everything he pointed out? No. As I've said before, those of us who played a themed or Legion-specific army could still be competitive because while we did have restrictions, we also had perks to doing it. In the new codex, there's NO perks for doing it. Some of us don't want to use different Gods' units or whatnot, and I don't think we should be forced to just to remain competitive.

 

I'm also glad he mentioned the intention to create divergent Legions codices back 2 - 3 years ago. At least at that point they knew there would be a backlash and were preparing for it by appeasing to everyone and not just new players. Unfortunately, since the time of Gav's leaving and now, they seemed to have ditched the idea of seperate codices (and yet we've been getting seperate SM codices? :wallbash: )

 

So yeah... I'm grateful he made the attempt to explain his intentions, thoughts, and opinions on the subject. If only those still at GW would pick up where he left off, perhaps we'd all be happy right now.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I have posted this comment on the blog:

 

I fully agree with HBMC.

 

Gav, i think you have done a good thing by posting this. You certainly have my respect for it, even if i still do not like your book. I understand that there are many other factors present.

 

I appreciate the idea of giving more options with this current codex, but i think if you do a comparison you will find this one has much less options. That is because, other than ancient enemies, the restrictions of the previous codex were all in the variant legion lists which were optional in the first place. The loss of the massive customization that daemonic gifts granted is also huge. Why are Aspiring champions exactly the same as sergeants? This does not make sense from either the fluff or gaming perspective.

 

So in this current codex we have gained the ability to take noise marines and berzerkers in the same army. But we have lost all unit customization due to no more armory or daemonic gifts, we have lost almost all vehicle customization, we have lost psychic power variety, we have lost proper daemon weapons, and we have lost the ability to make cult legion lists.

 

The previous codex was often accused of being too powerful. It was true that it allowed 4-5 builds powerful enough to be tournament competitive. The new codex allows 1, maybe 2. And lash/pms/zerks/oblits is more powerful than the previous codex’s lists. So we have not only lost options from a fluff perspective, we have even lost them when it comes to actual game play. It used to be when you faced a chaos player at a tournament you wouldn’t know which of the ~5 lists he’d have. Now we know exactly what they will have, every time.

[Important]

I can understand where they were going. It is just that all other codices didn't get that nerf hammer in the face either to make our codex as competive as everyone else. For example we can see how space marines have gained so much more. Sure they lost the trait list now but have gained new units and alot of options. They have black templars, dark angels, (blood angels ha-ha) now space wolves getting a new codex and also the current main codex. We have one codex with focus on renegades and 4cult troops. If we got that treatment and not a fast legion book comming after then I see no justification or reason to let marines have a main book and 3 other codices.'

 

Not only that but many of our troops are so useless and overpriced (example bikers). Sure marines sell the most can't argue with that. But think about it the chaos marines have very awesome models that you can come up with new ways of converting all the time and are easy for new players to paint and all. Chaos can sell just as good if we would get a new book with just as much we had in the old one. But to a more balanced limit and fun way I' sure chaos would be pretty more popular again.

[flameseeker574]

Honestly, this article just made me angry. He doesnt even realize why people are upset.

 

I dont want to get into it as itll just be one long angry rant, but I was really shaking my head at:

 

-Justification for daemons. Imperial Guard cant be used with SMs so Daemons shouldnt be used in CSM? I know he said the book is supposed to focus on CSM, but thats what seemed to be the reasoning. I dont/wouldnt even use daemons, but I feel for those that want to.

 

-His views on the old book. Legions were restrictive...great, so now we have one list that has minimal tweaking to it that can be run. This book is far more restrictive.

 

-And the worst point was being a flexible gamer. The argument that you can do whatever you feel like because its a game is ridiculous. IG with CSM? No one would EVER allow that, even in a friendly pickup game at the store or club. Why even pay 30 bucks for this codex then if I can just make rules up? He talks as if the codex isnt even relevant.

 

 

I cant say Im sad to not see him working there anymore if that is his attitude and views on the game.

 

I agree with this assessment. It seems as if the design team's views on the game (and humanity in general) are Utopian and optimistic. While the concept of a gaming club that finds it 100% acceptable to let you bring anything that you want to add flavor is a great one, it also happens to unrealistic. In my gaming club I'm lucky to get away with using C:SM drop pod rules with my blood angels, and even then I'm playing BA prices (more) for them. Also I was rather irked by his view of tournaments and that they weren't "natural" in fact a competitive test of skill is one of the most natural behaviors of the human race. Just because you think of something as a friendly game doesn't excuse a company from providing sub-par services. (in this case rule making and rulebook editing.) It just doesn't seem like these codex writers play the game with normal customers all that often, perhaps in the design team gaming group it's perfectly acceptable to bring in your fledgling IG army and run them alongside your UM, and that is just one of their house rules. In the end their business revolves around us, the customer base and I would love to see a larger outreach program, where they would post on B&C and ask players "hey what do you like/dislike about this codex/" and take the general public likes and dislikes into consideration when deciding what to include. If the entire online community wants more god specific stuff in the CSM book then give them a little more.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As with so many others here, I'm glad he wrote something on the topic, and that its finally getting adressed, I'm just saddened that many complaints went unadressed.

My army, and many Night Lords players, got no added variation. Sure, we can take cult troops. You know what? We could before! Nothing stated "if your army is painted in X colour, you must use X sublist". If I wanted Chaos-y Night Lords, I would have used the standard list.

But what I and many others wanted was the sublist. The one where we limited ourselves in certain ways, but what we still had got a little boost. I don't want Cult units, or daemons. I find it even more sad where the new Space Wolves codex will be able to give a better representation of my old list than the current CSM codex.

 

Our variation is so much less than what it previously was. We traded a limited amount of incredibly, incredibly detailed, customisable units, for a slightly larger amount of much less variable units. Note I'm speaking here about Cult lists, who gained access to other Cults, but lost Daemonic Wargear etc. Compare this with the Black Legion (standard) list, who only lost things they could do, and compare it to some Undivided Legions, who lost most of what they could do. Raptors do not a Night Lords list make, nor do Chosen make an Alpha Legion.

 

I'm kinda happy that there's confirmation that Legion codexes were at least planned, my only hope is that these are still planned to go ahead, and that they just want the Dark Eldar done first. Hopefully I'll finally be able to make a list that fits my background without being accused of a power-gamer because I'm using a different codex.

[DuskRaider]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Legions... As Gav said in his statement, they were planning that back in 2006 / 2007! That was over 2 (or 3) years ago! Look at it this way, Jervis made the "big announcement" at Baltimore (or was it Chicago?) that they were "definitely thinking about the possibility of maybe releasing a Legions Codex at some point in the future". Yeah... in other words "we'll tell them we're throwing an idea around that's actually BEEN around for years, just to shut them up and hope they forget about it." Makes me kind of :lol:

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I know... :lol:

What I've posted on the blog:

While I can agree that the current Chaos codex is a great codex if you’re playing just a pick-up game, just throwing together a list of whatever, or if you want a tournament list, it does unfortunately fall down in representing fluffy lists.

 

An example is my Night Lord list. By fluff, the Night Lords don’t use Chaos. No marks, no daemons, etc, and they prefer terror tactics. This limited me in 3.5. I couldn’t use any of the big shiny Cult troops others got to use, instead I had to make do with my Daemonic Visage to represent Night Lords, and make use of my free Night Vision. Sure, it was restrictive, but I loved it though. It perfectly captured the Night Lords.

Now, to use the 4th Ed codex, I lost all the things that made my Night Lords what they were. My list got reduced to a bare-bones imitation of what it was previously. Sure, I COULD use Cult units, or Obliterators, or Defilers to bring some power and variation back into the list, but it feels wrong. Night Lords don’t use those things. I COULD use Icons as ‘counts-as’ Veteran Skills, but why does a unit forget how to assault as well when some guy randomly holding a stick dies? It just doesn’t feel right.

What I find particularly saddening is that if the rumours are true, the new Space Wolf codex will be a better fit for my Night Lords than the Chaos Space Marine codex. I get my Night Vision back, I get the “hardened veteran” feel back, I get drop-pods (something very fitting for Night Lords), and I get ATSKNF to represent our undying hatred of the cursed Imperials.

 

What needs to be remembered is that Chaos IS restrictive. The Chaos Gods are incredibly jealous things. Khorne isn’t going to be happy if his favoured Warlord goes around heavily recruiting other Cults into his army! Khorne is stronger than those weaklings! To show his disfavour, instant spawndom for the Warlord.

People complaining about the strictness of the old Legion rules often forget that nothing forced you to use them. Contrary to what many people seem to say, I’ve pored overmy 3.5 codex, and have yet to find the paragraph stating “If your army is painted in X scheme, it must use Y rules.” You don’t like that Death Guard can’t have Havocs? One, its part of their fluff. Two, if it bothers you so much, use the standard list, and grab some heavy weapons.

 

I’ll disagree with the above “ice cream” example, but only slightly. What this codex did instead is change a slightly limited amount of highly versatile units for a slightly larger amount of non-versatile units (or at least as versatile as they were before).

 

Cult Legions can finally have their marked anything (not that they couldn’t use the standard list before), but those Marks don’t give the same benefits they did before. The Cult Terminators, Chosen of the Gods, highly favoured beings, are somehow less favoured by their God that that new-comer in power armour over there. Hell, the LORD is less favoured than the basic Cult Troops.

 

We then have the standard list, which gained practically nothing in variation, only being able to give marks to all units equally. Instead, they gave up the depth of character mentioned above.

 

Lastly, we have the Undivided (non-Cult) Legions, namely the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords. Word Bearers weren’t hit so badly. What these lists gained was access to things they didn’t want to take, if they stayed true to fluff. I’ll say it again to all those misinformed people who try to use a particular argument against me. Raptors do not a Night Lords list make. Terror tactics do. Chosen do not an Alpha Legion list make, and so on.

These Legions, instead of really gaining anything new, are now forced to use the limited version of the old standard list.

 

Daemon Princes, beings that previously were almost unlimited in their possible forms in the original Realms of Chaos, are now limited in choice to choosing a Mark, choosing a psychic power, and choosing to have wings. The giant monstrosity that Khorne blessed with a Bloodthirsters head, eagle wings and the legs of a dog is now identical to the seemingly frail Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, whose face is a twisted image of “perfection”, with goat horns, and talons for gently caressing the enemies of Slaanesh are now identical other than the Marks they have, and the Khorne one has wings.

Daemon Princes are the one unit that should never be limited. These are creatures whose form and abilities are determined by the passing whim of their patron God at the time of their “birth”. They shouldn’t be pigeon-holed into “can fly” and “can’t fly”. I don’t believe that the Daemon Prince with the blade bigger than you are is as dangerous in close combat as the Nurgle Prince who finds it hard to move around his diseased bulk, relying on his Nurglings to attack for him.

 

The same is true for Chaos Lords. When the codex was first released, I didn’t really like the removal of daemonic gifts, but they had the essential upgrades available. Then the Loyalist codex came out, and Captains not only had their stats upgraded to equal the “superior” Chaos Lord, but they had so many optional upgrades that gave them so much variation it wasn’t funny. Particularly ironic was the auxilliary grenade launcher, as if their bolter (a rapid-firing rpg) wasn’t enough grenade-y death. This felt like a smack in the face for us who lost our Gifts of the Gods and Daemonic Gifts. They could get Digital Weapons, but simple artificer armour was too much for us?

 

What I will credit this codex on is opening up the Tzeentch units to be things other than the Thousand Sons. True, they are the Cult Unit, but they’re a highly unusual Cult Unit that doesn’t represent the Cult of Tzeentch as a whole.

 

Lastly, I will readily admit that much of these complaints come from hindsight, from where the design strategy of the codexes was changed after the Chaos Marine codex was released. I do not blame Gav in any way for the stream-lining that our Codex received, it was the plan at the time. He couldn’t go against it, and every codex was to receive the same treatment. For what you did in that design strategy, you have my applause. You pulled off a heavily streamlined version of Chaos.

 

What my complaints come from is simple bitterness that the design strategy was changed to almost the complete opposite. Before, I could rest assured that every codex would be streamlined as we were. Then the Loyalist codex came out, and I was left thinking of what could have been if our Codex was released under this new strategy.

My one hope is that a Legions codex is not too far in the distant future, and it is simply being held back until after the much more deserving Dark Eldar. Until then, it seems I’ll be using the Space Wolves for my Night Lords.

[The_Crippster]

"we'll tell them we're throwing an idea around that's actually BEEN around for years, just to shut them up and hope they forget about it." Makes me kind of :lol:

 

It's what games workshop does, and what many of us have come to expect.

 

I agree with you 100%.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just because we've come to expect something doesn't mean we have to accept it. Apathy gets us nowhere, in fact it gets us even worse places than when we started. Its for this reason I've never agreed with the "don't complain, they'll just ignore it" crowd.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

I posted:

I will add my weight to those against the current Chaos Space Marines codex. I did not play competetively using the 3.5 dex, but I had a lot of fun making army lists. Under the 4.0 dex, I have joined the 'artificial environment' of tournaments.

 

This is the one good thing about 4.0-I have been able to enhance my enjoyment of the hobby by playing more competetively.

 

The way in which 4.0 went about this was, however, flawed. As soon as I cracked the 'dex, I was dismayed. My Chaos Lord couldn't have all his daemonic upgrades anymore. My beloved possessed (I ran about 15) were...useless. My defiler couldn't have parasitic possession anymore. Neither could my predator. My super sorceror was...weak.

 

I wasn't great at 40K, but I could instantly tell which units were good and which were bad.

 

As soon as I used a daemon prince, I never took my Chaos Lord or Sorceror off of the shelf again.

 

My defiler gathered dust.

 

My predator never got painted.

 

Why was this? I was winning using certain units and losing when I used others. "WAAC!" some will scream. No, I just liked to win-everyone does (don't even try to say that you enjoy losing).

 

4.0 took all the variety and experimentation out of my army lists, save that which one-tracked it to effectiveness.

 

As opposed to the opportunity to (looking back) try out several ways to effectiveness, there was one straight path.

 

4.0 took GW's 'ideal gamer'-someone who played to write a story with their battles-and turned them into the most min/maxing, competetive, 'beardy', player possible. This isn't a lament for lost innocence. Instead, it just shows what happened to the play-for-fun kid who picked up a one-track codex.

[DuskRaider]

Just because we've come to expect something doesn't mean we have to accept it. Apathy gets us nowhere, in fact it gets us even worse places than when we started. Its for this reason I've never agreed with the "don't complain, they'll just ignore it" crowd.

 

Unfortunately, we do complain. We've voiced our complaints on many forums that we KNOW higher ups in GW frequent (including this one). They really just don't give a rat's arse about our satisfaction, because they've sold X amount of the Codex and X amount of the models. Corporate empathy is a myth.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It still lets them know there's a problem though, and gives them ideas on what to change next time around. I'm not expecting them to run off and do a Legions codex right now because of it, I'm just expecting them to take the complaints into account next time the Chaos codex is done.

[the jeske]

Well Gav says he doesnt like ad hominem arguments , but the fact is that durning the years he worked with GW , the dexs he worked on were seen as the most broken ones [not in power , but in not working like a codex should ] . The restrictive part made me lol sad. In the 3.5 dex you could have zerkers/pms and oblits and a slanesh DP in the same army . no problem . you just took BL. people may remember that khorn BL was the best army out there , better even the uberbuffed IW . I would agree with the "we gave freedom to players" part , if some sort of legion rules stayed. If it was like in RT books where there were sonic weapons for non EC and WE havocks . But there are legions rules . We were given the freedom to play the same freaking army only I call my AL and Bob says its WE . Is that giving options to players ?

 

I loled at the demon thing even harder. but not because of the IG+sm thing. he writes

there are all sorts of other Imperial troops like the Arbites, Sisters of Battle, Planetary Defence forces, Assassins, navy crews, Adeptus Mechanicus and many others. Yet I never received a complaint that these could not be used in a Space Marines army…

only Gav forgets that with the INQ dex its totally possible to have IG or SM or SoB/GK or Assasins in any imperial army . But of course the codex WH/DH dont exist <_< . then he goes how people should use imagination only again he forgets that while its possible to make a traitor IG army with BL[grey knights] or Sob and SM[sm parent list with sob] totally legal without , its not legal to play demons and csm in one army.

 

and this is what I wrote.

Mr. Thorpe am not sure If you know , but the reason why you never had a sm complain about sob/assasins and adeptus arbites is because both the WH and the DH codex gives options to ally those armies with a parent sm list.It is possible to make a IG traitor regiment with BL allias [iG +GK or even death watch kill teams] or have sm and sob [sm parent list +sob allias],without the use of imagination. it is not possible with csm and demons .

 

Also as the bringing back the chaotic in chaos goes and more freedom for players to pick their lists. I seem to fail to see that . the random factor of certain units[khorn lord , dreadnought] makes them unplayable and not just at a tournament level.

I also fail to see where the options are. We had many list of different power level in the 3.5 codex. Rigth now we have one variation of the same list , list from players around the world are carbon copies of each other . How is giving players one list to play , giving them more options and freedom to pick what they want ? Or is the freedom giving us IW oblits , what makes other hvy support units almost not used.

Also you seem to forget that in the 3.5 codex one could have full freedom of choice of gear and units . Plague marines hand in hand with khorn berzerkers and the leader is a slansh lord ? no problem , one just took the black legion list.

[incinerator950]

I don't expect for him to reply enough, and I expect all the bandwaggoners to jump on his **** because he's from GW.

 

Seriously, why is it that when someone posts one side of an argument, and they have power, you've got over a dozen dumb***es prancing about who either are too new to care or don't actually play the game.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I don't expect for him to reply enough, and I expect all the bandwaggoners to jump on his **** because he's from GW.

 

Seriously, why is it that when someone posts one side of an argument, and they have power, you've got over a dozen dumb***es prancing about who either are too new to care or don't actually play the game.

 

Or play something other than chaos is the main thing. They see how strong lash and oblits are and then think chaos is godly and that anybody complaining about it is a noob and a whiner.

 

 

And great points Jeske.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That, or they give the ever present "just change your list till you like it!", or possibly the "but you can use whatever you want!"

Or even worse, in my case, the answer that has me headbutting the wall whenever I see it "just take 60 Raptors! There's your Night Lords!" <_<

[incinerator950]

..Night Lords are Terror Shock Troopers with permanent Night Vision, not Guerrilla Fighters who terrorize the landscape (little bit of this but not that much).

 

Edit: I posted my opinion on the board, not that it really matters.