Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Castlerook]

People can say you can make legion armies, but in all honesty you end up with the same army in different colours. Theres nothing to differenciate the legions, oh you can say Iron Warriors can be made up of Chaos Space Marines, with vindicators and obliterators bringing the firepower, but its not an Iron Warrior army, its an army in Black, Yellow and Gunmetal paint, the same way a "Night Lord" army is just Chaos Space Marines in blue armour. There isn't any variety in the list, its just Chaos with different paints, the various lists played in tournaments or in friendly games just end up being comprised of the same units. Why the fun or challenge when someone just uses the same tricks again and again? Thats something that the pro-Book players can't seem to understand or comprehend. A game isn't fun when you use the same list all the time, it just gets to the stage when you'll lose all the time because your enemy adapts to your list and knows exactly what your using. Where the hell is the fun in that when there no variety!

 

Without using obliterators or vidicators, bikers or raptors, make up 2 fluffy lists for Night Lords or Iron Warriors. You can't, because theres nothing to differenciate a Night Lord Marine from an Iron Warrior bar the paint on their armour. Thats what we hate about the codex, because they are the new vanilla marines, theres nothing in the list that truly represents the legions without spamming units.

 

I found 3.5 to be easy to make an army. I guess that means I have an education higher than highschool.

Yeah, Incinerator950, apparently college degrees are no longer needed, we just need to be able to make a simple list with the 3.5 codex. If you can do that you have earned the right to have letters after your name, my name should read "Anarnaxe, KhN, Ng, Tz". Just need to work on my Sl qualification.

[incinerator950]

Exactly!

 

I'm contemplating going through the topic and counting how many times we've said the same thing.

[Kabbala]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

 

Because we play at stuff like official GW stores?

[IronWinds]

"It looks like I was arguing that with the new codex almost every army looks the same except for the paint job."

 

Dude we've said that about over a dozen times by atleast 3-6 people.

 

I know... I've probably said it a dozen times myself, but Legatus just isn't understanding the logic I guess... so I end up repeating myself in different ways.

 

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

 

The second I win to many games they aren't going to let me use it anymore. The new SMs with their rediculous inv saves would not like my 3.5 demon prince that bounced around the field smiting everything with his dreadaxe(no inv saves). And actually my list was for the most part the same under 3.5, but under 3.5 I was the only one using it. Now almost everyone has a mechanised army with defilers or obliterators.

[incinerator950]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

 

Consistent victories make people mad and sad. Like anon yesterday pointed out his gaming group wanted him to stop bringing a Land Raider Redeemer with his Grey Knights, and then myself and 20 people told him to just find a new group.

 

Also, if you play at official stores, you have to play under the new rules. You would need to get a friend group going too, because new people are definitely not familiar with those rules.

[Castlerook]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

 

Theres a part of me really hopes you have the word "Thrall" stenciled on your back. Wheres Ahriman when you need him?

 

Like the people above me said, using 3.5 is fine if your with friends, not so much if your playing in a store or in a local tournament, its current rules or nothing.

[DuskRaider]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

 

Wow, you just seem to have all the answers, huh? :P

 

In all seriousness, I'd love to use the 3.5 codex, but many people don't want to play against an older incarnation, and as has been said, good luck walking into a GW store with the old 'dex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The 3.5 codex would also need a FAQ to bring it in line with 5th ed.

[Dan The Deamon]

I miss daemonic Visage

 

:P

[Grey Mage]

If you loved the 3.5 edition of the codex so much, why dont you ask the group you play with to let you use it instead of the new one. Problem solved.

Because there will always be that niggling suspicion on a person who did that... that they did it to powergame, and then theres the endless rules-debates that would occur without even GWs admittedly crappy ability to FAQ/Errata it for the new edition.

 

There are still groups out there who play Rogue Trade, 2nd or 3rd or 4rth edition, or who have so many house rules they need a tome the size of an encyclopedia to keep it strait- but for the most part those groups, those players arent part of the living game or the community as a whole- because the community as a whole plays 5th edition, and they play using the most recent codex they can find.

 

Of course, in general this is my opinion on what Gav Thorpe had to say, since IIRC that was the origional point:

 

On September 19, 2009 at 10:45 am Moses Sartin Said:

I have to simply put: this article has the sense of “I had the best of intentions and you cant possibly know what was going on”.

 

And you know what- your right. I wasnt in the staffrooms and I wasnt in the meetings so I cant know what was going on. I doubt you could tell me even if you wanted to do to NDAs etc.

 

That being said I know what Ive seen, in the players, on the forums, in the tournaments and in local gaming groups- Anyone who played 2nd or 3rd edition chaos is close to crying or has simply given up their army. Only those players who have started in the last 2.5 years, or less, seem to enjoy the book and very few of them can state any specific fluff that they truely love.

 

Ive looked through the codex, and Ive played a number of proxy games using it to try and figure out what was going on- and I can see that if you were in a particular mindset about how an army should work it would in fact balance out…. but that unless you really really try to force that peg into the place you want it fails quickly. There are simply easier ways of acheiving game balance, and army wide effectiveness for that matter.

 

The current book is wide open to mixing and matching- something it sounds like you wanted to acheive, and in the end did a good job of. What it lacks is the ability to produce lists that are not mixed and matched forwards and backwards yet are still effective and fun.

 

This is a problem shared by C:Daemons Id also say. If you wish to take but one of the ruinous powers for fluff reasons, or to simply restrict yourself to not taking opposing forces in the same list due to the fact that they should attack each other on sight 99/100 your ability to produce a balanced army list is entirely removed. Each of the powers specializes so much in a particular style that it is nearly incapable of plugging its own holes.

 

And that I think is what has hurt so many people, and why youll have heard and/or received so many angry calls or letters- because though the old lists were restrictive in many ways they did atleast provide internal balance and capable forces.

 

Some people couldnt do math properly and had issues with the old codices. Some of them blatantly disregarded any sense of scope or fluff and abused the rules.

 

Now almost everyone does. Dual Lash lists being the obvious nod, but most new players have no idea what an “Iron Warrior” is or the origional fluff of Mortarion. Whats worse is that most of them dont care- because the book no longer attracts people with an eye for fluff.

 

And that makes me sad.

[FerrumIgnatus]

It's a tragedy, to say it mildly, that GW has degraded the traitor legions to a bunch of rubbish warbands, with the Black Legion überfiend, Warmaster Abaddon the Despoiler as their supreme leader. This litterally gets on my nerves. To compensate, they've added all sorts of short stories in the codex of different high-ranking legionists in order to compensate any legion-themed player out in the world, but that attempt was rather idiotic and a waste of space, in my oppinion. Furthermore, it saddens me that newcomers to the game think Chaos players should have all manners of gristly trophies, spikes gallore and other daemonic pimps. a couple of weeks ago I participated in a friendly tournament, and when a little runt, no older then 14-15 years, came in and asked wich one of us was the chaos player (I play Iron Warriors, and my opponent, a friend of mine, plays his own chapter, Frode's Chapter -an internal joke-). just lovely ^_^

 

But in gaming terms, I find the new codex to be rather good. you can field, if you wish, 9 obliterators in total, and give your squads all kinds of juicy upgrades. not to speak of vindicators with daemonic possession, sure you lose 1BS, but they can recieve a hell of a punishment AND still dash back. but to be honest, I do miss the daemonic upgrades on the daemon prince, though.

[DooshSahaal]

i miss daemonic EVERYTHING! :lol:

 

oh and i think the reason that everything has been said over9000 times, is because people take a glimpse of the thread and wanna throw in their two bob.

 

just like me xD

[Magnus Thane]

Well in itself I can't complain. My BL is getting a lot of attention in the latest codex. And I personally loved the Red Corsairs stuff.

More options would be nice but you can still make fluffy armies in my view. The only thing that annoys me is that certain units are subpar, hence making it more difficult for Legions who should rely heavily on them. Units like Raptors, bikes or Possessed. That and the Lord needs beefing up. If all that is done, I don't think there is that much to complain about.

Throw in perhaps a few alternate troopschemes per Legion and a few forced limitations and all is well.

[satanaka]

you can still make fluffy armies in my view.

 

Really? Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out what page Alpha Legion Cultists are on? Or the servo arms for Iron Warriors Warsmiths? The Accursed Crosius for Word Bearers Dark Apostles? The Cult vehicle specific upgrades?

 

Yes, the BL got a lot of love from GW, as did the Red Corsairs, but that would be because BL and RC are Chaos Truly Unflavored and that is the issue at heart here.

 

A LOT of people are pissed that their flavoring got removed and was replaced by a substandard product, that didn't meet the standard for either the established fluff, nor game play.

[Magnus Thane]

There is no reason a serv arm is that important to be reflected in the rules. A lot of the lost rules are negligeable things.

I can understand people being upset if they invested in a force of Cultists or put sonic weaponry on everything but a lot of people exagerate.

Not to mention that Chaos fluffwise has RADICALLY changed throughout the codices. People tend to refer to the previous one. But that one deviates from what I read commentwise, radically with fluff in preceding ones.

[Sception]

I also heard a variant of the Orc rumor - namely that there was a delay in the model production, so the more finished Ork codex got pushed back, while the Chaos Codex, which needed fewer models anyway, and already had some new models ready to go, was pushed forward.

 

That matches my appraisal of the book - rushed. From the art to the list, to the rules, everything feels as though it was slapped together with great haste.

 

 

I for one happen to agree with the philosophy of bringing all the chaos legions back under the same list. Take a look at nids, which imo did an admirable job incorporating the hive fleet rules into a single army list. There isn't enough shelf space or player support, from what I can tell, to make five to nine chaos marine books work. Heck, over half the 40k releases are already devoted to one brand of marine or another. I personally think there isn't enough distinctive about blood angels or dark angels to warrant separate codeces, either.

 

 

But a single list for chaos would have to have a lot more variety in it, better constructed rules, and would have to have mechanics to make an army of one alignment feel different from an army of another alignment. The best way to do this would be Special Character and regular HQ options that had an effect on some of the structure of the list, you know, like the orc and SM books. Look at how many distinct unit entries are in the Space Marine book - there's tons of them! I'm pretty sure a Chaos book could be done that would make most players happy even without whole sublists if they used that kind of space to make the options cool.

[Dan The Deamon]

'nice' Marines sell most likely. Not to mention CSM codex was supposed to be the new way. Streamlined and with less optional rules.

Yet afterwards they seem to have changed their mind and reverted back to a more ruleheavy approach.

 

 

Have you seen the new Space wolf dex? I just got it in the mail today. It reminds me more of 3.5chaos then 4th chaos does.

 

it's practically filled with restrictions and regulations, yet it RULES.

 

Sagas = deamonic wargear.

[Midgard]

With a Chaos codex solution, why not have five codices: one for each of the major Chaos Gods, and one for the Undivided and renegade forces that do not worship a single deity? More potential products for GW to sell, a chance to go more in-depth for each topic, and even to cover the Legions assigned to a specific Chaos god in more details. That would, naturally, take out the Chaos Daemons codex as well, including them into books based on Chaos power allegiance.

 

Not like that's ever going to happen...

[chillin]

Having looked it over pretty good now,I have to say that SW's dex is somewhere inbetween where C:csm 3.5 was and where C:csm 4.0 should be.

[the jeske]

Chaos was one of the top 3 best selling armies before this edition afaik. They certainly sold a lot more than any of the divergent marine chapters. Now they are one of the worst, despite having pretty much the nicest model range GW makes.

well actually the problem is bigger . CSM 3.5 generated good sales even after the dex realese . GW lives with the fact that DA or BT will sell bad after a few months after their codex hits the stores. only codex sm and codex 3.5 had very good and stables sales at all times. right now the chaos sales are like those of DA or orks . very small.

[Rain]

Chaos was one of the top 3 best selling armies before this edition afaik. They certainly sold a lot more than any of the divergent marine chapters. Now they are one of the worst, despite having pretty much the nicest model range GW makes.

well actually the problem is bigger . CSM 3.5 generated good sales even after the dex realese . GW lives with the fact that DA or BT will sell bad after a few months after their codex hits the stores. only codex sm and codex 3.5 had very good and stables sales at all times. right now the chaos sales are like those of DA or orks . very small.

 

And herein lies the real mystery. I remember back when the 3.5 codex was being launched reading in a WD that the developers think that Chaos players are especially keen to express their creativity through conversions and whatnot and so they are creating a lot of different options to stimulate that. And it worked since as jeske says the codex kept sales up and I believe it as it basically had nine different and characterful armies in it and so one could have armies of several legions and each army would play completely differently.

 

So the point is that they obviously hit the nail on the head when it comes to making money from Chaos fans--give them a lot of variety and reason to convert and kitbash, and give them reason to have more than one legion army. Instead they decide to streamline it, which even if you can argue "helps the game" (though I disagree) definitely does not sell, especially to a fanbase that by their own admission has always loved conversion and customization, that's why we don't play loyalist for pete's sake!

[Magnus Thane]

'nice' Marines sell most likely. Not to mention CSM codex was supposed to be the new way. Streamlined and with less optional rules.

Yet afterwards they seem to have changed their mind and reverted back to a more ruleheavy approach.

 

 

Have you seen the new Space wolf dex? I just got it in the mail today. It reminds me more of 3.5chaos then 4th chaos does.

 

it's practically filled with restrictions and regulations, yet it RULES.

 

Sagas = deamonic wargear.

 

Yep like I said, they somehow reverted back to going ruleheavy. That's what annoys me. SMoothline? Okay but do it for everyone.

Don't smoothline? Then don't do it for anyone.

 

As for the divergent Codices. Blood Angels/Dark Angels - especially Blood Angels can for my part be assimilated in the Codex: SM.

I can bear with a Chaos Dedicated Legion (World Eaters and co) and a more 'basic one'. But unlike some people seem to go for, i do not want a horde of codices to be added to the total count.

I'd rather see slightly larger codices if need be. As already the rotational slowness causes far too many codices to become out of date or forgotten.

If you limit the nr of codices, updates can come a bit quicker and codex creep may not be as large.

[IronWinds]

What funny where I play, you don't see chaos as much as you use to on the tabletop. But when there is an apoc game it ends up being SMs&Guard vs Chaos&a few orks. Its all people who have left over chaos from 3.5 and it just happens to be their only army big enough for apoc. The desire to play chaos is there, the models are there... I just finished more termies :) , but the rules are not.

 

One point I brought up earlier.... chaos players under 3.5 had multiple chaos armies. You could have a WE army that was completely different from your IW army. Now there is no difference, so that player has an army that never gets used.

 

 

My opinion, what would really help sales and help chaos. Make 1 big book, have your big chaos marines section, about chaos in general. Have a small section that goes over some basics about each legion and their rules 1-2pages for each, and then have 2 really small sections each 2-5pages(like the LatD section in the EoT book) that go over demons you can take, and human/mutant followers you can take.

 

So a combination of demons, latd, and CSM. Chaos would have 1 major army list, and you could have a couple of demons or humans within that army(put limits on them) but they didn't count towards your compulsory. In the demon and LatD sections have mini army lists that allow you to play just that army, but you can take a few CSM or Latd if your demons, or demons if your latd within your army. I know the codex would end up being 150-200 pages and cost as much as a big book. I would buy it.... and others would buy it, and the minis would sell. Sure it would be a big project but done right it would be a goldmine for GW.

 

So example chaos armies.

IWs. Warmsith, 30 CSM, 2 defilers, a leman russ, 30 traitors.

 

Khorne warband. DP, 30 bezerkers, crazed dreadnought, 20 mutants, some bloodletters.

 

Traitor guard. Aspiring Champion, 10 marines, 10 demons, 40 mutants, 40 traitors, Leman Russ.

 

Demons: GD, demons, demons, demons, some mutants and cultists running amuck as well.

 

And those lists are a lot more fluffy of what chaos is than the 3.5 or 4.0 codex. Legions here or gone, chaos still has more human followers than CSMs, and they are the guys never getting represented.

 

 

I know the immediate response is that people would find ways to take advantage, well the first thing you do is put small caps on how much people can mix the armies. Chaos can take 3 allied units, demons and humans combined. Same goes for the other two. Alpha Legion would take more humans, IWs more humans and their tanks, Word Bearers more demons, etc. And if you want to play Renegades there is nothing stopping you.

 

Actually something similar could be done for Imperials... no don't put SM and Guard together, that would be to much. But just make a really big SM codex that has the big chapters already in it.

 

I know its a wish list, but chaos players would like it, and GW could make a ton on model sales.

[Magnus Thane]

Well I don't really care that much either way. I liked the previous codex and I like this one. Both have suited my needs. And both had fun fluff. I can understand why some players are discontent like for instance some players who invested heavily and now ended up with items/units they no longer can use. But I also feel that a lot of players overreact.

 

As for Chaos not selling. I presume you are basing this on statistics not just at how Chaos is selling locally? As over here they are 2nd after Space Marines (in general).