Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The funniest bit is that this codex's uberbuild is stronger than the old codex's IWs.

[Atheist]

Yep , that's about right .

 

Besides , in a troop driven game , you can't field the old "imba" IW list , even though lately I'm trying to prove ( to myself ) the opposite , with a different kind of "IW heavy support spam " list .

[satanaka]

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out what page Alpha Legion Cultists are on?

They are in Codex Imperfial Guard. You can play Alpha Legion with allied cultists in games of Apocalypse or larger games of 40K with multiple detachments. In regular 40K games you will be restricted to play Alpha Legion or Word bearer Chaos Space Marines without allies.

 

I believe the discussion was about the issues with the Chaos CODEX. So what does Apoc have to do with this? Surely you do realize there some people that play that do not play Apoc at all, or do not have the resources or desire to play Apoc, and Apoc should never be viewed as a catch - all.

 

So again, where is the listing for the things I cited in the current Chaos codex?

 

Or the servo arms for Iron Warriors Warsmiths?

Lord with Powerfist and Mark of Khorne.

 

Which would defeat the purpose of having a Warsmith, based on fluff. Warsmiths are Undivided.

 

The Accursed Crosius for Word Bearers Dark Apostles?

Lord with Powerweapon and Mark of Tzeentch.

 

Again, defeats the purpose, fluff wise. Wordbearers are also Undivided, as well as Dark Apostles being Chaplains and having the benefits of that style of unit in their base profile.

 

The Cult vehicle specific upgrades?

Gone the way of the "chain axe of khorne".

 

Which truly boggles my mind as those were solely Chaos upgrades and were not only fluffy, but added a certain character to ANY Chaos list.

[satanaka]

I personally think there isn't enough distinctive about blood angels or dark angels to warrant separate codeces, either.

 

I'd suggest that you read more fluff on both then. There are MASSIVE differences between the two, both strategically and fighting style, as well as as general outlook.

 

To compare the two would be like saying there isn't enough distinction between the 5th century Visigoths and 15th century Medieval Germany.

[satanaka]

Legatus, have you noticed how many of those lists look the same? For different Legions? You're not really helping your point. And BTW, how do you propose one uses 9 Obliterators plus a Vindicator or Predator? 9 Obliterators = 3 Heavy Support selections at 3 per squad. See... You COULD take 4 Heavy Support selections with 3.5, but not 4th Edition. Are you somehow admitting you cannot play an Iron Warriors list with the new codex? Because in that case, I'd say you're finally getting it!

 

If I use 3 squads of CSM's +rhinos, a Chaos Lord and a good dose of vehicles... why wouldn't that armylist be able to be an Iron Warriors list?

 

Because it's like closing Pandora's Box.

 

How about this.... Go tell a Black Templars player to get rid of chapter specific rules.... And tell him to be happy taking a generic Champion, and instead of Initiates, tell him to take more scouts. Same thing right? Wouldn't that list be able to be a Black Templars list?

 

Except Black Templars are heavily different in squad composition. Iron Warriors are not. They field CSM's, they field a lot of tanks etc. They never had that worthwhile things on their own in my opinion bar a basilisk. IW don't have much to complain about.

I can understand if say Emperor's Children or so are discontent, but IW don't have much to complain about.

 

Try again.

 

They were the very first Chaos legion to be able to take Vindicators as a 0 - 1, which at the time were a SM vehicle ONLY.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I personally think there isn't enough distinctive about blood angels or dark angels to warrant separate codeces, either.

 

I'd suggest that you read more fluff on both then. There are MASSIVE differences between the two, both strategically and fighting style, as well as as general outlook.

 

To compare the two would be like saying there isn't enough distinction between the 5th century Visigoths and 15th century Medieval Germany.

 

I'm assuming he means rules-wise, and he is correct. The only real distinctions are stuff like death and raven wing, assault squads as troops, overcharged engines, and that sort of thing. Most of which could be summed up in a page or two each.

[satanaka]

How about this.... Go tell a Black Templars player to get rid of chapter specific rules.... And tell him to be happy taking a generic Champion, and instead of Initiates, tell him to take more scouts. Same thing right? Wouldn't that list be able to be a Black Templars list?

 

Except Black Templars are heavily different in squad composition. Iron Warriors are not. They field CSM's, they field a lot of tanks etc. They never had that worthwhile things on their own in my opinion bar a basilisk. IW don't have much to complain about.

Oh please - Templars would still be a Codex chapter if it wasn't for the success of their list in Codex Armageddon. Telling a BT player to go back to vanilla is no different than telling a CSM player.

And what makes them ultimately different from most Space Marines in the fluff, is that they deviate from the Codex Astartes - the document that ended many of the differences between the loyalist Legions.

None of the traitor Legions (or renegade Chapters) have to follow something like a Codex, yet for all their possible allegiances and influences they are thrown into the same bucket.

What nonsense.

 

And let's not forget that my beloved Salamanders also had an official list in that very same book, Lay and the Salamanders are QUITE different in composition, fighting style, and equipment than Ultramarines. Perhaps Magnus can show us where the current official Codex: Salamanders is on the shelf of any GW store?

 

Oh wait.....

 

Now do you get what we mean about shoehorning units, ignoring established fluff, and sending out substandard products, Magnus?

[satanaka]

'nice' Marines sell most likely. Not to mention CSM codex was supposed to be the new way. Streamlined and with less optional rules.

Yet afterwards they seem to have changed their mind and reverted back to a more ruleheavy approach.

 

 

Have you seen the new Space wolf dex? I just got it in the mail today. It reminds me more of 3.5chaos then 4th chaos does.

 

it's practically filled with restrictions and regulations, yet it RULES.

 

Sagas = deamonic wargear.

 

Yep like I said, they somehow reverted back to going ruleheavy. That's what annoys me. SMoothline? Okay but do it for everyone.

Don't smoothline? Then don't do it for anyone.

 

As for the divergent Codices. Blood Angels/Dark Angels - especially Blood Angels can for my part be assimilated in the Codex: SM.

I can bear with a Chaos Dedicated Legion (World Eaters and co) and a more 'basic one'. But unlike some people seem to go for, i do not want a horde of codices to be added to the total count.

I'd rather see slightly larger codices if need be. As already the rotational slowness causes far too many codices to become out of date or forgotten.

If you limit the nr of codices, updates can come a bit quicker and codex creep may not be as large.

 

 

And this post just shows how little you know about the Blood Angels, specifically.

 

Since when could you take Assault squads as Troops in C:SM, as the Blood Angels do? Where is the comparable entry for the Furioso Dreadnought in C:SM (2 PF, Melta and Heavy Flamer)? Where is the comparable entry for Sanguinary Priests (combined Apothecary/Chaplain)? The Death Company? I'll give you the Baal Predator, as that one can be handled by re-writing the upgrades available on the standard Predator, but the rest have no comparable equal, rules wise in C:SM.

[satanaka]

 

Prot

 

How about this.... Go tell a Black Templars player to get rid of chapter specific rules.... And tell him to be happy taking a generic Champion, and instead of Initiates, tell him to take more scouts. Same thing right? Wouldn't that list be able to be a Black Templars list?

GW could have included the Emperor's Champion and "Scouts" as upgrade models for Tactical Squads in the Codex Space Marines and could have used that to fit Templars into the same basic list. Perhaps they could also have made ccw's available for Tacticals and it would have sealed the deal, but in the streamlining process some details have been lost for the other variant armies. That's what they did with White Scars (Bikes are available as Troops), Iron Hands (Techmarine HQ) and Raven Guard (Veteran Assault Squads).

 

Apparently you forgot about the BT VOWS, which is actually what makes them the BT in the first place and is what warranted them in having a separate codex.

 

 

 

Every army that had it's own Codex before will still get it's own Codex. Those armies that were sub lists inside a Codex or sub lists that had been published in the White Dwarf or other sourcebooks have been combined into a single Codex list. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are not like Ultramarines and Space Wolves, they are like Ultramarines and Salamanders.

 

Read a bit of Salamander fluff and you'll quickly understand why we Sallie players are bitching about not getting our own codex after having our own list in Codex: Armageddon.

 

Sallies are NOT like Ultramarines.

 

 

 

 

Lay

 

 

Everything is "fluff" - this Codex is just poor at dealing with it. The desire is there, the options are not.

That the Black Templars do not use Devastator squads is fluff that need representation in the game. That the Word bearers take off every seventh day of the week because that's when they pray to the chaos pantheon the whole day does not need representation in the game. That's why I said that a lot of the legions distinct traits are largely in their motivation and their preparation. It does not need to be reflected in the game. It happens before the game, or it is the reason why the Legion is fighting.

 

 

 

So you are agreeing that Alpha Legion should have their cultists back, correct, as it is quite clear they DO need representation in game, of this?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Since when could you take Assault squads as Troops in C:SM, as the Blood Angels do? Where is the comparable entry for the Furioso Dreadnought in C:SM (2 PF, Melta and Heavy Flamer)? Where is the comparable entry for Sanguinary Priests (combined Apothecary/Chaplain)? The Death Company? I'll give you the Baal Predator, as that one can be handled by re-writing the upgrades available on the standard Predator, but the rest have no comparable equal, rules wise in C:SM.

 

Just to play devils advocate, where does it say the bulk of the Blood Angels Chapter is Assault, rather than Tactical Marines? They're organised as a Codex Chapter, the only divergance they have is the ad hoc formation of Death Company members, and as such the bulk of any Blood Angels force will 90% of the time be Tactical Marines, not Assault. Sure, they like Assault Squads more, as they prefer assault to shooting, but so do the Raven Guard. Honour Guard are simply Command Squads, Sanguinary Priests are Apothecaries (sure they carry the blood of Sanguinius, but the Blood Angel Chaplains take the role of Chaplains, not Sanguinary Priests), and the only other differences are weapon loadouts on two highly versatile vehicle chassis, the Dreadnought and Predator. And hell, the Dark Angels lost the uniqueness of their Mortis Dreadnought in the latest SM codex, so why shouldn't the same happen with the Furioso?

[Hellios]

Its true the blood angels have pretty much normal companies except the first company which consists of terminators and veteran assault marines (Vanguard, which by the way some UM players complain about because fluffwise they do not exist apparently... well until now.) The reason they get them as troops and all is because the field lots of them a lot of the time in preference to tactical marines.

 

However on this subject I have pretty much condensed the space wolf codex (minus characters) into a two page add on to the space marine codex so if anyone argues that DA and BA should go in the SM then SW and BT's should actually go in. I know everyone would shout but they are so different... but as I can do the rule changes on two pages its not even an issue. However I bet DA, BA, BT & SW players (3 armies I own) will not be happy if they don't get as much fluff as the ultramarines do.

 

As for the Mortis minus FW I don't think we can even take them in the Dark Angel codex anymore but standard marines can... takes the piss if I'm honest as a Dark Angels player.

 

When you have the rules to spread out it becomes a bad thing finding all the IA articles and so on and I understand that although I loved the IA and all the rule variation in 3rd/4th it made game that much better with all the variety (I didn't play in 2nd or before so I can't comment on the game as I only collected models). However on the other hand removing variety and over simplifying things makes the game boring and if I'm honest pointless and I think GW has gone a bit to far that way for my taste although I'll live for now.

 

The problem is when it gets to this point...

 

Codex: Imperium

Codex: Everyone else

 

Hah that might not be to bad if they implemented it right at least half the armies should be on the same playing field.

[Lay]

And let's not forget that my beloved Salamanders also had an official list in that very same book, Lay and the Salamanders are QUITE different in composition, fighting style, and equipment than Ultramarines.

Just to play devils advocate, where does it say the bulk of the Blood Angels Chapter is Assault, rather than Tactical Marines? They're organised as a Codex Chapter, the only divergance they have is the ad hoc formation of Death Company members, and as such the bulk of any Blood Angels force will 90% of the time be Tactical Marines, not Assault. Sure, they like Assault Squads more, as they prefer assault to shooting, but so do the Raven Guard. Honour Guard are simply Command Squads, Sanguinary Priests are Apothecaries (sure they carry the blood of Sanguinius, but the Blood Angel Chaplains take the role of Chaplains, not Sanguinary Priests), and the only other differences are weapon loadouts on two highly versatile vehicle chassis, the Dreadnought and Predator. And hell, the Dark Angels lost the uniqueness of their Mortis Dreadnought in the latest SM codex, so why shouldn't the same happen with the Furioso?

I have an even better example: anything from the days of the Index Astartes articles.

 

Remember the Imperial Fists one, that said that they were the epitome of the Codex doctrine alongside the Ultramarines? It also said that they were stubborn as hell and had retained their siege skills. GW gave them their own rules based on the latter.

Or the Index Astartes article about the Raven Guard, another Chapter that "follows the dictates of the Codex Astartes closely, though they do differ in the tactical application of their troops." Again, they were given rules of their won.

Now both are vanilla again, though I'm sure we can expect some Raven Guard exclusive stuff in Forge World's Imperial Armour 8, despite them being a Codex Chapter.

 

Oh, and let's not forget the 4E SM Codex which featured Ultramarine(!) exclusive Tyranic War Veterans and Honour Guard.

Did these armies really need those option? Does it matter if they needed them?

 

If there's a good concept behind it should be possible to create something interesting for any faction. In this regard the CSM Codex is a wasted opportunity.

[satanaka]

Since when could you take Assault squads as Troops in C:SM, as the Blood Angels do? Where is the comparable entry for the Furioso Dreadnought in C:SM (2 PF, Melta and Heavy Flamer)? Where is the comparable entry for Sanguinary Priests (combined Apothecary/Chaplain)? The Death Company? I'll give you the Baal Predator, as that one can be handled by re-writing the upgrades available on the standard Predator, but the rest have no comparable equal, rules wise in C:SM.

 

Just to play devils advocate, where does it say the bulk of the Blood Angels Chapter is Assault, rather than Tactical Marines? They're organised as a Codex Chapter, the only divergance they have is the ad hoc formation of Death Company members, and as such the bulk of any Blood Angels force will 90% of the time be Tactical Marines, not Assault. Sure, they like Assault Squads more, as they prefer assault to shooting, but so do the Raven Guard. Honour Guard are simply Command Squads, Sanguinary Priests are Apothecaries (sure they carry the blood of Sanguinius, but the Blood Angel Chaplains take the role of Chaplains, not Sanguinary Priests), and the only other differences are weapon loadouts on two highly versatile vehicle chassis, the Dreadnought and Predator. And hell, the Dark Angels lost the uniqueness of their Mortis Dreadnought in the latest SM codex, so why shouldn't the same happen with the Furioso?

 

Try in the current BA codex, written by Jervis Johnson himself, for the Assaults being troops.

 

Since when could you have a techmarine in a command squad anymore? The BA are the only ones that can still do it.

 

To answer your question about the Furioso, please show where in any codex, other than the BA one, you can have 2 power fists on a dread.

 

You can't because there is no codex that has a comparable option.

 

There are quite more differences than you'd prolly like to admit between BA and Ultramarines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

You're missing the point, Satanaka. Sure, the list gives Assault Marines as Troops, but they're in exactly the same proportion of the Chapter as the Ultramarines. Are you trying to tell me that every Blood Angels army is actually the Reserve Assault Company? Or that every single battle uses elements of it? Going by the composition of the Blood Angels Chapter, it makes no sense for them to be able to use Assault Marines as Troops when others can't, given that they have the exact same number of them.

 

And my point about the Furioso is that prior to the latest smurf Codex, only the Dark Angels could use the Mortis dreadnought. It was exclusively listed for them in Imperial Armour. Now, the smurfs come along and nick the plans for it. Why shouldn't the same be able to happen to the Furioso? I'm not saying it's already been done, I'm asking why it can't, when there's already a precedent of a chapter-specific dreadnought becoming widely available.

 

And as for the having a Techmarine in an Honour Guard squad, can you tell me what he's doing there? They have jump-packs standard, don't they? So what is a Marine who specialises in repair doing away from the actual things he's supposed to be repairing? Even if they don't always have jump-packs, it still remains that a tech-priest has no real place in a command squad, he should be back with the tanks, not fighting amongst the infantry.

[Legatus]

IronWinds

 

Wait isn't your justification for how IWs would have bezerkers or plague marines that they are allies. But we can't take other things because they are just allies. I hear double talk.

I would not distinguish between a "pure Iron Warriors Legion force" and an "Iron Warrior warband" as far as Codex requirements go. The Codex describes an army of Space Marines. Even if the Space Marines fight alongside other military groups in a campaign, the Marines will do a lot of missions and operations that the other allies cannot equally perform. Combat drops in drop pods or Thunderhawks would be a prime example for loyalists, but they are not as common for Chaos Marines. Iron Warrior Chaos Space Marines with some Night Lord Chaos Space Marines and World Eaters Berserker Chaos Space Marines, one Codex. Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marines and Blood Pact Traitor Guard*, two different Codices. Word Bearers, Chaos Cultis hordes and Cult Daemon hordes, three Codices.

 

*Technically I don't think the Blood Pact were former loyalist formations, but I hope yo know what I mean.

 

 

 

Oh and IWs use to be able to take artillery, so aparently it was important enough to put into their rules.

The current Codex has shifted away from "indirect firing artillery that should not be part of 40K in the first place because it should be several miles behind the lines" to "short range defense breaking assault siege artillery". Iron Warriros in a larger setting (epic, perhaps) should definitely work close with Titans and long range artillery, perhaps they could even at some point get bombardment rules in 40K again. For the time being direct firing cannons are suitable for games of WH40K.

 

And yes they are CSMs that prefer to use support units and hewavy vehicles.... hence why I want my support units and heavy vehicles .

A Chaos Space Marine force can consist out of 3 Dreadnoughts plus 3 Predators, Vindicators or Defilers. Each of those choices could also be replaced by a Land Raider (via being bought as a dedicated transport for Terminator squads.

 

For example, an Iron Warriors force could include:

 

2 Dreadnoughts

 

1 Land Raider (plus 5 Terminators)

 

2 Predators

 

1 Vindicator

 

Wouldn't that be enough for an average game?

 

On the note of not taking cult units... I'm sure you'll notice that in the IA they were only allowed bezerkers, and in 3.5 no marked units.

Obviously the "pure Legion X" lists in the Index Astartes and the 3.5 Codex excluded any units that were not originally from that Legion. And I still like to play "pure Night Lords" usually. But the Legions of old are no more. They have all been spread over the Eye of terror into smaller groups. They still revere their respective Primarchs, and they still following their distinct doctrines. But thy are not strictly organised and cohesive Legions anymore. Warsmith Gharrons Grand Company and Warsmith Brams Grand Company go their separate ways, each Warsmith seeking his own destiny (i.e. targets to destroy). On their way, they try to amass a strong force, which might mean to ally with traitor Titan Legions, or units of Plague Marines. If Perturabo should call, or maybe Abaddon, both Warsmiths will heed, lending the "Iron Warriors' siege machinery" to the effort. After the campaign is over, they will go their separate ways again.

 

Something else your forgetting is that at one time or another every legion in the eye has attacked the other. Its not just distrust, its war.

And yet there are the dreaded black crusades every few hundred of years. So appearently it is not that bad.

 

And I'm going to have to go back and read a lot... but what does taking allied units or not have to do with the legions having their own rules?

Nothing. That is just the point of the Codex Chaos Space Marines not needing traitor guard, cultists or daemons to represent Chaos Space Marine Legion forces.

 

Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are bad examples to begin with, of the 9 AL have more in common with IWs than anyone else being the only two that don't take any marks or demons. And IMO the two legions that remained the most 'sane'. But there are still HUGE differences so I accept the challenge.

 

(..)

I have stated earlier that I do agree that the Codex Chaos Space Marines is not representing the Cult Legions as well as the undivided Legions.

But how different are the Night Lords from the Iron Warriors? Or from the Word Bearers?

 

Exaclty, hence why we need those other choices and limitations that prevent us from taking others.

It is easy to NOT take certain units. I don't take cults when I play "pure Night Lords". As I have been saying earlier, the current Codex does not tell you how to construct your Iron Warriors army, but it allows you to construct an Iron Warriors army. It is how all Codices since Codex Eldar work. (Eldar, Chaos, Space Marines, Orks, Imperial Guard)

 

---

 

DuskRaider

 

Wait... I listed three allies in that whole list, Legatus. Traitor Guard, Dark Mechanicus, and Titan Legions... All of which others use. Everything else was 100% Iron Warriors, and I probably should have put Warsmiths instead of Tech Marines. A lot of the examples I used also aren't Super Heavies (or shouldn't be in the case of Malcadors, Valdors, and Minotaurs).

Malcador - Forge World material

 

Valdor - Forge World material

 

Minotaur - Forge World material

 

Leman Russ - allies (?)

 

various Land Raider variants - Forge World Material

 

Fighters - Forge World material

 

Dark Mechanicus - allies

 

Daemon Tech - included in Codex

 

Traitor Guard - allies

 

Orbital Bombardment - *

 

Titan Legions - allies

 

Allies are as much "Iron arriors" as World Eater Berserkers or Night Lord units are, though the Lord would probably have more command over human allies than he would over allied Marines.

Forge World has come up with a lor of vehicles that have not been mentioned in te fluff before or have never had rules in any Codex or source book, so arguing that the Iron Warriors should have a lot of Forge World units is not that helpful. There are a lot of war machines, especially for Khorne, that have been known from Epic 40K that have never made it into the WH40K system. Individual players might undertake the endeavour to build and create rules for such exotic machines (or use the Forge World rules/models if they have made some), but I am not sure you can expect them to be included in any Codex book.

 

*As for orbital bombardment: Wich faction would not use that from time to time? I liked the IF/IW orbital bombardment rules, but I also think that it does not fit the game of WH40K, similar to long range artillery. Would the army (in this case Iron Warriors) have orbital superiority in every instance? Specifically games against Dark Eldar are allways considered them attacking the other army. Would they order orbital bombardments at a location only a few yards from their own position? It seems to be more of an extreme/desparate measure (perhaps why Daemon hunters use it), not a calculated and routine one.

 

Listen, it's great you like the new codex. Good for you! However, you need to understand that most people don't, and no matter what "counts-as" you pull out, it's not going to change our minds.

I accept that people don't like the Codex. What I oppose are claims that the Codex does not allow to play Legions and demands to change the streamlined rules system specifically for Chaos Marines. It is how Eldar, Codex Chapter, Orks and Imperial Guard do their variant armies now too.

 

---

 

Lay

 

Everything is "fluff" - this Codex is just poor at dealing with it. The desire is there, the options are not.

That the Black Templars do not use Devastator squads is fluff that need representation in the game.

How is that not (and I'm quoting you) "a preference of certain choices and the lack of others"?

The White Scars for example don't use Devastators either - and they don't get any rules to represent that.

"Lack" of choices is easily accomplished by simply NOT taking those choices. You ant to play fluffy White Scars? Don't use Devastators.

 

I already repeated my "does not tell you how do do the army, but allows you to do it" phrase above.

 

That the Word bearers take off every seventh day of the week because that's when they pray to the chaos pantheon the whole day does not need representation in the game.

That was never a rule for Word Bearers to begin with and no one is advocating it.

I forgot to put a smiley at the end.

 

No, just no. Just look at 3.5 and Index Astartes.

Units like Dark Apostles, Cult Terminators or Sonic Predators have nothing to do with "preparations".

Dark Aposle = Lord with powerweapon and 4+ save. You know you can still get that...

 

While I do agree that the current Codex does not represent cult Terminators very well, I do not think that the Emperor's Children are neccessarily represented by putting sound weapons on everything. Specifically on vehicles, who themseves are not really affected by using such loud and exotic weapons. I thought it was more of a personal preferrence of the Noise Marines? I have to read up on them.

 

And the lack of World Eaters Sorcerers or Death Guard Thousand Sons isn't any different from Havoc-less Black Templars.

No, it isn't. You can do World Eaters by not taking non-World Eater choices. Easy.

 

Remember the Imperial Fists one, that said that they were the epitome of the Codex doctrine alongside the Ultramarines? It also said that they were stubborn as hell and had retained their siege skills. GW gave them their own rules based on the latter.

GW gave them their own rules because the directive at that time was that every Marine Legion needs their own rules. Whether they used the same organisation/tactics as anyone else was secondary. GW simply made up distinct characteristics. Similar to how the Black Templars were once a Codex Chapter, before GW decided that they should be different.

 

---

[Legatus]

satanaka

 

They are in Codex Imperfial Guard. You can play Alpha Legion with allied cultists in games of Apocalypse or larger games of 40K with multiple detachments. In regular 40K games you will be restricted to play Alpha Legion or Word bearer Chaos Space Marines without allies.

I believe the discussion was about the issues with the Chaos CODEX. So what does Apoc have to do with this?

Yes, yorry if I was being unclear. The Codex Chaos Space Marines does not include traitor guard or cultists, and only few daemons. It focuses on the Chaos Space Marines, and not on other forces of Chaos. The clue is in the title.

 

Or the servo arms for Iron Warriors Warsmiths?

Lord with Powerfist and Mark of Khorne.

Which would defeat the purpose of having a Warsmith, based on fluff. Warsmiths are Undivided.

It is a simple game mechanic. You select a unit from the HQ selection. Then you pay +x points to increase it's attacks by +1. The way it is described in the book, that +1 attack you get for your points is associated with a certain title and with a certain affiliation.

Loyalist Space Marines have an Item that grants them a 4+ invulnerable save. Now their commanders get it by default, but in previous Codices they had to uy it for +25 points. Space Wolves also have an item for +25 points that grants a 4+ invulnerable save, but because they are Space Wolves and don't care for the "Codex", their item has a differnet title.

In the previous Codex Chaos, you could grant your commander +1 attack by giving him a certain 15 points item. In previous Space Marine codices, their commanders too had the option for a 15 point +1 attack item. Different name, different fluff, same effect.

 

In the current Codex Chaos Space Marines you can create a Lord that, unlike normal Lords with 3 powerfist attacks, would have 3+1 powerfist attacks, which could represent the Lord having an additional attack due to his Servo-Arm. Only, there is no "servo-arm additional attack" available in the Codex. There is only the "evil space good of death sympathizer additional attack". It is up to you to take that additional attack and explain it through a different context, which is usually called "counts as".

 

The Accursed Crosius for Word Bearers Dark Apostles?

Lord with Powerweapon and Mark of Tzeentch.

Again, defeats the purpose, fluff wise. Wordbearers are also Undivided, as well as Dark Apostles being Chaplains and having the benefits of that style of unit in their base profile.

If you go back and check out what the Dark Apostles Accursed Crozius which defined a Dark Apostle did in the 3.5 Codex you will find that it was a powerweapon that also granted the Lord a 4+ invulnerable save. And here I am saying that you can still have a Lord with a powerweapon and a 4+ invulnerable save in the current Codex.

 

Apparently you forgot about the BT VOWS, which is actually what makes them the BT in the first place and is what warranted them in having a separate codex.

Aren't they upgrades for the Emperor's Champion in the current Codex Black Templars?

 

Read a bit of Salamander fluff and you'll quickly understand why we Sallie players are bitching about not getting our own codex after having our own list in Codex: Armageddon.

 

Sallies are NOT like Ultramarines.

Oh of course. Salamanders differ extremely from Ultramarines in... using a second special weapon in their tactical squads...

 

So you are agreeing that Alpha Legion should have their cultists back, correct, as it is quite clear they

DO need representation in game, of this?

No, I am not agreeing that cultists are members of the Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marines Legion.

[Magnus Thane]

So the big questions are...

 

what codices are needed and what not?

 

to combine codex content in one tome or to multiply with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with it?

[satanaka]

You're missing the point, Satanaka. Sure, the list gives Assault Marines as Troops, but they're in exactly the same proportion of the Chapter as the Ultramarines. Are you trying to tell me that every Blood Angels army is actually the Reserve Assault Company? Or that every single battle uses elements of it? Going by the composition of the Blood Angels Chapter, it makes no sense for them to be able to use Assault Marines as Troops when others can't, given that they have the exact same number of them.

 

And my point about the Furioso is that prior to the latest smurf Codex, only the Dark Angels could use the Mortis dreadnought. It was exclusively listed for them in Imperial Armour. Now, the smurfs come along and nick the plans for it. Why shouldn't the same be able to happen to the Furioso? I'm not saying it's already been done, I'm asking why it can't, when there's already a precedent of a chapter-specific dreadnought becoming widely available.

 

And as for the having a Techmarine in an Honour Guard squad, can you tell me what he's doing there? They have jump-packs standard, don't they? So what is a Marine who specialises in repair doing away from the actual things he's supposed to be repairing? Even if they don't always have jump-packs, it still remains that a tech-priest has no real place in a command squad, he should be back with the tanks, not fighting amongst the infantry.

 

Ok so according to your premise, let's get rid of the Emperor's Champion for Black Templars also. Or while we're at it let's take away Wolf Guard from the Space Puppies. According to your premise, there is no need for those troops, as "essentially" they do the same thing as other existing troops do.

 

The base issue here is something was taken away that made the army what it was, whether it was loyalist or diabolic. These things make those armies play a certain way, thus they are quite indispensable and should not have been gotten rid of in the first place.

 

Would Space Puppies play the same way without their Wolf Guard? No., Do Sallies play quite differently once you take away all the TH's and Flamers/Meltas? Hell yes.

 

I've always said the BA didn't fit with the Codex organization. I believe time (and a retcon) may prove me right yet.

 

A techmarine with a jump pack? Well let me tell you what crossed my mind.

 

What's the quickest way to get to a damaged vehicle to repair it? You guessed it, Jump pack, because Terrain is still an issue with a bike.

 

That goes out the window with a pack. Packs can go in a straight line over all terrain.

 

Still sound like a dumb idea now?

[Legatus]

Or while we're at it let's take away Wolf Guard from the Space Puppies. According to your premise, there is no need for those troops, as "essentially" they do the same thing as other existing troops do.

No, you really wouldn't need specific Wolf Guard rules.

 

Veteran Squad = Wolf Guard

 

Terminator Squad = Wolf Guard Terminators

 

Veteran Sergeant = Wolf Guard leader

 

The difference between Veterans, Terminators and Wolf Guard is that those squads cannot get a lot of weapon upgrades. In previous Codices they could get such upgrades, but at some point it was decided that they should have a certain set of equipment. For Wolf Guard, that was not decided.

 

For example, in 2nd Edition there was only one type of "Terminator Squad", and every Terminators could get various close combat weapons. Then with 3rd Edition it was decided to distinguish between "Terminator Squads" and "Terminator Assault Squads", and now the close combat weapons were not available for regular Terminators anymore. Today it is seen as a distinct Deathwing trait that they mix heavy weapons and different close combat weapons in their Terminator Squads, while in 2nd Edition that was how all Terminator squads were organised.

 

In 2nd Edition Veterans were armed strictly like Tactical Squads. In 3rd and 4th Edition they have been able to chose between boltguns and close combat weapons, and in 4th Edition they were able to get a few special close combat weapons. In 5th, GW has dediced to split them into boltun veterans and ccw veterans, where the ccw veterans cqn get several upgrades.

 

Similar changes could be done with Wolf Guard just as well. Perhaps not every member of the squad need to be armed distinctly. It is advisable to have a few "early casualty" models with no extra armament anyway. So why not instead of a "Wolf Guard" squad of 6 models, 2 with powerweapon and 1 with powerfist, simply take a vanguard veteran squad of 60 models, 2 with powerweapon and 1 with powerfist?

 

I am not saying that is what GW should do. I am just saying it would be easy to represent Wolf Guard that way. I.e. "Wolf Guard" is simply the Space Wolves term for "Veteran".

[Magnus Thane]

Well the GW line does need more consistency. What do you Chaos Players exactly want? Another fluffy all in one codex like before or Legion specific (or LegionS specific) codices?

 

GW can make bigger volumes that unite a faction with a lot of fluffy options crammed in. Say all or almost all SM Chapter types in one codex.

Advantage more options and army build possibilities in one codex, quicker updates and possibly a higher chance of avoiding massive outdating of codices.

 

The only main disadvantage I can see is that it may come at the cost of a lot of fluff. Be it of a lot of the 'main Marine armies' or certain 'Chaos' forces. And that the nr of options will never be quite the same as a force specific codex.

[Castlerook]

Ok, so you all realise the topic has gone from what Gav Thorpe said about his reasons for the current book to the "Every Space Marine army should be in one codex" arguement. You actually gone from one army to another completely.

 

The base problem here is about the Chaos codex, it is the result of a brief period where Games-Workshop experimented with an extremely streamlined army list, for ease of rules and army building. The general consensus is that the experiment failed. While the likes of Wargear is gone, newer armies still have a great choice of items and options for their characters, units and vehicles. The Chaos book doesn't. What people don't like is the fact is that Games Workshop has essentially acknowledged that the current book is a far poorer book then previous versions and yet aren't willing to do anything about it. In the scheme of things, Chaos is probably in the bottom half of codexes in need of an update, Dark Eldar, Necrons, the Inquisition and Tau are all codexes in need of updates, before Chaos. Many of us don't mind that, what we don't like is that GW didn't even come up with a FAQ or codex patch for us to at least help us with 5th edition.

 

Remember what this thread is about, the CHAOS SPACE MARINE CODEX, not the other codexes. You want to argue about them, there are other threads and sub forums, so leave the flamers, the trolling and the vile at the door. Instead try to talk about how to IMPROVE the Chaos codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Still sound like a dumb idea now?

 

Given that the squad he's permanently attached to most likely isn't going to be heading to those damaged vehicles, yeah, its still a stupid idea. A jump-pack on a lone Techmarine makes some sense, but most likely limits his servo-arms, but attaching a support/repair character to a frontline assault squad? It doesn't matter how you twist it, it doesn't make sense strategically. You're either wasting the potential of the Tech-priest, or you're wasting the potential of the other Honour Guard and the attached Character, who have better things to do than sit around watching brother Bob fix the treads on that Predator.

[incinerator950]

Well , a poll can hardly be a good way to show anything , because as usual many non CSM players will vote for the current Codex , even though their opinion is irrelevant ( after all they don't buy Chaos ) .

 

So a poll would probably give us false results , because we cannot restrict it to Chaos Players in any meaningful way .

 

P.S. : I call this , the "IW complex" . Some scars never heal . This is the reason that we get to face all the flame whenever we voice our opinions about the current Codex . Because of a poorly balanced IW list in the previous edition Codex . Some of these people , who flame "whining Chaos players " only all the time ( in other fora ), were so badly wounded by that list in the past , that they actually enjoy our frustration with this Codex . True story .

 

Still, I would like to see the numbers besides a few veteran's opinions that are angry (I share their anger)

 

Well , a poll can hardly be a good way to show anything , because as usual many non CSM players will vote for the current Codex , even though their opinion is irrelevant ( after all they don't buy Chaos ) .

 

No we wouldn't! I am no lackey of false Gods, yet I would vote against the current Codex!

 

But the poll would perhaps be false, simply because a large amount of players (e.g. my entire gaming group) who quit 40K because of this Codex and therefore their poll results would not be counted etc.

 

Still, I would be interested what the result would be...

 

Poll is a poll, we've had too many arguments about the same thing, I already know how many loyalists hate having Lash Spam.

 

Legatus, when will you realize all the people you're arguing with in this topic does not want streamlined armies with no pre-existing flavor?

[Lay]

While I do agree that the current Codex does not represent cult Terminators very well, I do not think that the Emperor's Children are neccessarily represented by putting sound weapons on everything. Specifically on vehicles, who themseves are not really affected by using such loud and exotic weapons. I thought it was more of a personal preferrence of the Noise Marines? I have to read up on them.

Another choice that should be left to the player.

Also, what's there to read up? The fact that they were in an official Codex should be enough.

Heck, there's even an Apoc datasheet for current use of sonic vehicles.

 

And the lack of World Eaters Sorcerers or Death Guard Thousand Sons isn't any different from Havoc-less Black Templars.

No, it isn't. You can do World Eaters by not taking non-World Eater choices. Easy.

Still not any different from Havoc-less Black Templars.

 

Remember the Imperial Fists one, that said that they were the epitome of the Codex doctrine alongside the Ultramarines? It also said that they were stubborn as hell and had retained their siege skills. GW gave them their own rules based on the latter.

GW gave them their own rules because the directive at that time was that every Marine Legion needs their own rules. Whether they used the same organisation/tactics as anyone else was secondary. GW simply made up distinct characteristics. Similar to how the Black Templars were once a Codex Chapter, before GW decided that they should be different.

And that's the point. I mentioned the IF to show that even if claims that the Legions only differ in motivation and preparation were true, it'd still not be a reason to omit Legion rules.

[the jeske]

Still, I would like to see the numbers besides a few veteran's opinions that are angry (I share their anger)

m8 first of all , a lot of people left the game . 2-3 years ago you had post about EC/IW/DG every army +DIY renagades every day. take a look how good the slanesh sub forum or tzeench sub forum is doing now . sometimes its 2 days without any posts . Also if someone is new [and GW is kind of a building their whole sales tactic around it] and never saw or played with 3.5 dex or the dex of that era , how can he know what are we angry about ? what can he or she know about how the game looked back then . Even more , how can they know that the Gav dex looks very much like a copy past of the 3ed JJ chaos dex [ the most hated dex ever , sharing the crown with old thorpe dark elfs].

For example, in 2nd Edition there was only one type of "Terminator Squad", and every Terminators could get various close combat weapons

which codex are we speaking about angels of death /ultramarine one/SW one/chaos ??

 

So why not instead of a "Wolf Guard" squad of 6 models, 2 with powerweapon and 1 with powerfist, simply take a vanguard veteran squad of 60 models, 2 with powerweapon and 1 with powerfist?

because you can have a unit with guys in power and terminator armor in same unit . you can break up the WG unit and take 4 guys as "bodyguard" for a HQ and put 2 in units . no of this things can be done venguard. also Vengarud cant be made scoring [grimnar]. and WG on the other hand cant do heroic intervention. But both are extremlly overpriced and not very playable , that is a thing they have in common , I give you that one.