Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Sception]

How is blasting an enemy with warp lightning different from blasting them with a cannon shot? More to the point, how is hulking up via a psychic buff then smashing someone different than just smashing them? How is that different then gaining strength from being possessed and smashing someone? How do World Eaters summon daemons or make possessed in the first place?

 

No I wouldn't really add psychic powers to Khorne characters, even though it's a pet peeve of mine. I'm kind of taking the argument to a logical conclusion. It is a bit of fluff that irks me, though.

 

I agree that a proper set of options including alignment specific options for Daemon princes would solve the problem. However, if the 'melee guy' of the chaos powers doesn't like sorcery, then I think developers should avoid including melee-augmenting psychic powers for chaos sorcerers. Let chaos psychic powers focus on defense, or shooty damage, or weird effects. Not 're-rolls to hit and to wound', which is so good that a khornate melee upgrade would have to be pretty ludicrous to compete.

 

I would also try to answer some of the fluff questions that khorn's snubbing of psykers leaves. Again, psykers in 40k fluff are absolutely essential to most factions, especially Chaos, if not on the field per say then certainly behind the scenes in planning and enabling battles in the first place. A bit of fluff on how the World Eaters and other Khornate groups get from place to place, or communicate over interstellar distances, seems necessary, imo.

[incinerator950]

A few points:

- 10000 years outside the Eye isn't the same as inside the Eye, time flows differently

- World Eaters under 3.5 were a wind-up army with NO tactical finesse

I think 3.5 was an abomination of excess, and I've got every Chaos Codex ever printed. I happen to think the 3.0 version was great, and so is the current one.

 

And quite frankly, Legions are supposed to be limiting - that's the point of it being a sublist. If you want to play broad tactical armies, you play Black Legion or Ultras.

 

Please elaborate

[mannstein]

Ummm.... its not a FW model anymore, its in the IG codex.

Yes. And it shouldn't be.

 

Its in the codex, its going to stay in the codex until hell freezes over, so I would suggest those saying it shouldn't be get used to it. Or accept that you will be losing drop pods and other things which also shouldn't be in the game as it stands, in my opinion. The basilisk has been in game since second ed, functions nicely as a direct fire assault gun (before you say it can't, , not the AoBR booklet, page 58), and fits with the ww2 theme of the army list.

 

Back on topic: This codex has made three fundamental mistakes, in my view. Firstly, it alienated existing players in droves. This is bad for sales, as existing players are more likely to spend money to boost/change an existing army if the new codex has something to offer.

 

Second, it offered nothing (and I do mean nothing) to an existing player: my DG army is on hold until the next codex because I find the current one unuseable, badly laid out and totally contrary to the pre-existing fluff. I have all the models I need, I just won't be spending any cash on CSMs until the next iteration of the codex, and if they do produce one which is useable, I will spend cash to get the army up to date.

 

Thirdly, and probably most telling, it is just plain boring. The "fluff" relating to the renegades is unreadable tripe where it exists, half the army choices are overcosted or unuseable (no "random roll" stuff in future thanks, its not chaos its just stupid), most actual armies that people played are reduced to nothing more than paint schemes, and every single army that is produced is functionally identical. Mechanistically, the list has potential, but the mark/icon system doesn't make sense (they should have ported over the system for the chaos warrior book at the time with different tiers of marking for different levels of FOC choice) and no matter what colour scheme you use, if you don't want to use the dross from the book, you end up with a dual DP/oblit spam list.

 

It isn't even a case of "been-there-done-that-veteranitis", its a case of a badly flawed, unfinished, unedited and untested document being forced out long before it was ready, to fill a gap in their release schedule. If it was ready, where is the plastic chaos dread, the plastic PMs, the extra stuff they always throw out for a truly planned release (look at the new IG stuff, as an example: almost their entire range is now plastic, you don't even have to use a single metal model if you don't want to). 3.5 was not perfect, personally I think it could have been better organised (like putting all the relevant stuff for a unit entry on the same page) and a few things changed/dropped altogether (the minor psy powers, for starters) but it was still probably the definitive chaos army list since RT.

[traitor_dice]

3.5 was not perfect, personally I think it could have been better organised (like putting all the relevant stuff for a unit entry on the same page) and a few things changed/dropped altogether (the minor psy powers, for starters) but it was still probably the definitive chaos army list since RT.

 

again, alot (not all) of the confusion could have been fixed with just some simple repositioning of various things (i.e wargear).

sure, there'd still be some heavier edits needed, but it would have got alot of work done.

 

and im not saying that there weren't the odd rule that was completely and totally spastic, but alot of the confusion with these rules came not pnly from that, but the fact that they were spread all over the place.

 

as far as marked units (other than HQs and cult troops) are concerned, its not that hard to fix. just take the default profile of that cult choice, and make an entry for each (i.e PM bikers, WE havoks etc) some minor changes would be needed, but it could work.

 

sure, its alot of entries, but its essentially what 3.5 was, but a bit cleaner. what it comes down to, is whether having that many entries and such is worth it in

exchange for what many see as a codex superior to the horror of 4th ed chaos.

 

imo, the removal of daemons wouldn't have been bad, if the generic ones that were given didn't suck.

i see the generic daemons as an opportunity for some unusual chaos gribblies, but no one would take advantage of it, because game-wise, they fail.

[Sovereign]

I think 3.5 was an abomination of excess, and I've got every Chaos Codex ever printed. I happen to think the 3.0 version was great, and so is the current one.

Please elaborate

Very well, tho this ended badly the last time we went down this road, and I really have no desire to stir the pot or raise the Mods...

 

If you recall, I prefer a minimalist approach. That is, I think +1T is significant, whereas needing +1T and a host of other rules is excessive. So I'm happier with a simpler Codex that eschews lots of rules. 3.0 and the current Codex do that better than 3.5.

 

I think that 3.5 simply had too much, was a kitchen sink of sorts.

 

I like the approach of the current one best. Yes, they could have said: Lord w/ MoK makes Berzerks Troops, but in this case, they left things up to the player. If you want to be Fluffy, nothing stops that. If you want to do something different (i.e. 2+ Raptors and 2+ Defilers), you can do that, too.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I like the approach of the current one best. Yes, they could have said: Lord w/ MoK makes Berzerks Troops, but in this case, they left things up to the player. If you want to be Fluffy, nothing stops that. If you want to do something different (i.e. 2+ Raptors and 2+ Defilers), you can do that, too.

 

But how can you be fluffy with such limited unit options, so many units being horribly weak, and issues like no cult terminators?

[satanaka]

veteran skills got cut just like they were for loyalists.

looks at codex sm.... fleet...check....outflank...check.... stubborn...check.

None of these "universal special rules" had been available as a veteran skill in any prior Codex. I hope you are not trying to insinuate that the Codex Chaos has no units with fancy universal special rules. They have access to very potent Troops units with "fearless","furious charge", "feel no pain" etc.

 

 

 

but what existed was far beyond those abilities, such as Move through cover and infiltrate.

 

In addition, all of the SM ones require only a single SC, which in the long run, keeps point list costs down and all of those particular units in the list are affected (Pedro is a good example as he makes ALL sternguard scoring.)

 

Not to mention that the average cult troop costs 25 points a pop, and regular marines, even with that SC only cost 18.

 

And let's not forget CSM already HAD FC in the last codex, so that ability is not exactly new.

 

 

you said that the "new" type models made the armies/lists worse , that they were unfluffy and bad. What aint the truth , because those options gave codex that got them better [more options , more lists etc].

SM(4th): Tyranniy War veterans --> extremely unfluffy

 

Just how are Tyrannic War vets unfluffy for an Ultra army? Just who do you think is in the 1st Co. now? I suggest you read the fluff on the battle of McCragge again.

 

 

 

 

There have been some changes made to the theme since Codex Space Marines, but those elements were kept. The main change was to give more equipment options to characters, then there were additional cost reductions for jump units.

 

Which suck now due to not moving 18" anymore. I can't think of anyone who actually runs them, other than BA players.

 

Psyker powers . sm dex ... most viable , no clear best power. chaos [for sorc] lash and nothing else .

That's just horse manure. Warp Time, Gift of Chaos, Wind of Chaos and Nurgle's Rot are all viable and fun to use.

 

Gift of Chaos? Are you kidding me? 6" range, one attack and you make a crappy Spawn, that only has random attacks, WS3, and no save. You might as well give your opponent the KP for it at the beginning of the game.

 

Nurgle's Rot isn't much better. 6" radius, at S3 with no AP? That's really not that good. You wound on 4's average and they STILL get a save.

 

Please.

[Legatus]

Just how are Tyrannic War vets unfluffy for an Ultra army? Just who do you think is in the 1st Co. now? I suggest you read the fluff on the battle of McCragge again.

How are they unfluffy? There is the fact that the last Codex Space Marines stated that the Tyrannic War veterans were seen as a deviation from the Codex but accepted anyways on one page and that the Ultramarines proudly follow the Codex Astartes to the letter on another page. Then there is the whole issue of the Tyranids getting completely wiped out at Macragge and not reappearing until 250 years later (7 years ago from todays 40K), which makes the Ultramarines starting to specialise in fighting Tyranids after Macragge completely pointless. They just beat them, there were no Tyranids to train on, they were even believed to be extinct by some. That's how Tyrannic War veterans are unfluffy, especially for Ultramarines.

 

Which suck now due to not moving 18" anymore.

What, like in 2nd Edition?

 

Gift of Chaos? Are you kidding me? 6" range, one attack and you make a crappy Spawn, that only has random attacks, WS3, and no save. You might as well give your opponent the KP for it at the beginning of the game.

Well, the last time I used a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos I targeted the enemy (Tzeentch) Sorcerer. I did not have a Spawn model at hand, so I "only" removed his Sorcerer from play without any save allowed. A few games later my (Nurgle) Sorcerer was tagreted several times by enemy Tzeentch sorcerers, untill one of them rolled a 6, removing my Sorcerer and turning it into a spawn. That's what Gift of Chaos can do. And depending on your army setup you can use it several times per turn. You can use it to remove powerfist champions too.

 

Nurgle's Rot isn't much better. 6" radius, at S3 with no AP? That's really not that good. You wound on 4's average and they STILL get a save.

Orks are wounded on 5+, but they usually have no save to speak off, so if you get a bunch of Orks together you can take out 1/3 of those around your sorcerer in one hit. Works well against low armoured Imperials, Tyranids or Eldar too. Oh, it is not the best power against Marines. Can't have everything. If that is a problem for you no one is forcing you to take it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

About the Tyrannic War Veterans being unfluffy, lets use some logic here, folks...

 

How does a Marine become a Veteran? By fighting things.

In the course of fighting things, a Marine will pick up tricks for how to defeat those things easier.

Therefore, logically, a Chapter that has had many, many Marines fighting a single race in the past few years will have many Veterans who achieved their status by fighting a single race, yes?

Therefore, that Chapter will therefore have "specialised" Veterans, yes?

Therefore, the Veterans cannot help that their knowledge is specialised. It's hard to learn how to fight Orks better if you almost entirely fought against Chaos Marines to achieve your status.

 

Then please tell me how it makes more sense for the Veterans of the Ultramarines Chapter, who have fought primarily against the Tyranids in recent years, will have created Veterans who don't therefore have much more experience fighting against the Tyranids than against other foes, therefore having developed specific tricks for how to defeat Tyranids?

 

The standard Codex gives us generic Veterans, because the Veterans are most likely to have achieved their status fighting against a variety of foes. A Chapter that has fought many, many times against the Orks recently, such as the Crimson Fists, would have specialised knowledge too. Funnily enough, the Crimson Fists had this reflected in their 4th ed rules, being allowed to take Preferred Enemy (Orks). Despite this, the Crimson Fists are still a Codex Chapter. Tyrannic War Veterans were listed as a seperate unit because the SM unit name "Veterans" was alrady taken, and they had to be differentiated.

 

Combat experience doesn't make you non-Codex, non-standard organisation does. After all, how can the Ultramarines Veterans just "ignore" their combat experience, that has been a majority of the time, against a single race?

[satanaka]

Just how are Tyrannic War vets unfluffy for an Ultra army? Just who do you think is in the 1st Co. now? I suggest you read the fluff on the battle of McCragge again.

How are they unfluffy? There is the fact that the last Codex Space Marines stated that the Tyrannic War veterans were seen as a deviation from the Codex but accepted anyways on one page and that the Ultramarines proudly follow the Codex Astartes to the letter on another page. Then there is the whole issue of the Tyranids getting completely wiped out at Macragge and not reappearing until 250 years later (7 years ago from todays 40K), which makes the Ultramarines starting to specialise in fighting Tyranids after Macragge completely pointless. They just beat them, there were no Tyranids to train on, they were even believed to be extinct by some. That's how Tyrannic War veterans are unfluffy, especially for Ultramarines.

 

Apparently, you didn't read Cassius' entry fluff in the CURRENT codex. It not only explains all that, but writes that Calgar approves of the unit!

 

 

Which suck now due to not moving 18" anymore.

What, like in 2nd Edition?

 

Yes, like in 2nd. The only possible legitimate jump unit anymore that's even worth anything is Vanguard, due to being able to assault the turn they come in, and VG is so expensive, that cost wise, it's almost not worth taking them either, as they will not make their points back.

 

Gift of Chaos? Are you kidding me? 6" range, one attack and you make a crappy Spawn, that only has random attacks, WS3, and no save. You might as well give your opponent the KP for it at the beginning of the game.

Well, the last time I used a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos I targeted the enemy (Tzeentch) Sorcerer. I did not have a Spawn model at hand, so I "only" removed his Sorcerer from play without any save allowed. A few games later my (Nurgle) Sorcerer was tagreted several times by enemy Tzeentch sorcerers, untill one of them rolled a 6, removing my Sorcerer and turning it into a spawn. That's what Gift of Chaos can do. And depending on your army setup you can use it several times per turn. You can use it to remove powerfist champions too.

 

Sorry, I've learned not to mess with paying extra points for things I have only a 33% chance of doing damage to a Marine with.

 

In addition, you mentioned a spam list in the same breath. You're not helping your case any.

 

Nurgle's Rot isn't much better. 6" radius, at S3 with no AP? That's really not that good. You wound on 4's average and they STILL get a save.

Orks are wounded on 5+, but they usually have no save to speak off, so if you get a bunch of Orks together you can take out 1/3 of those around your sorcerer in one hit. Works well against low armoured Imperials, Tyranids or Eldar too. Oh, it is not the best power against Marines. Can't have everything. If that is a problem for you no one is forcing you to take it.

 

And the sorcerer and his buddies then immediately get punched by the Nob and his 20 friends, because you relied on something that works 33% of the time or on 33% of a group.

 

Bad idea.

 

Raise the average of something working to 66% of the time and it WILL catch my attention and I WILL use it at that point.

[Legatus]

Just to keep it in perspective and not appearing to go too far off topic: The issue of Tyrranic War Veteran fluff validity got started by the argument that "new units", as demanded by some for a Codex Chaos, are not allways a good thing.

 

Lord_Caerolion:

 

Then please tell me how it makes more sense for the Veterans of the Ultramarines Chapter, who have fought primarily against the Tyranids in recent years, will have created Veterans who don't therefore have much more experience fighting against the Tyranids than against other foes, therefore having developed specific tricks for how to defeat Tyranids?

Average age of an Ultramarine Veteran (guess by me) --> 150 years

 

Time period the Tyranids have been in this Galaxy --> 7 years (plus one engagement 250 years ago)

 

That's how it makes no sense. Ultramarine veterans have fought Orks, Traitors, Rebels, Eldar for 150 years, while having fought Tyranids for 7 years.

 

This is from the current Codex Tyranids, and had been their fluff since 2nd Edition:

 

In the aftermath of the first Tyrannic war there was little the Imperium could do to strike back at its foe. Behemoth (note: 745.M41) had arrived from a virtually unexplored quarter and had all but disappeared after the Battle at Macragge. (...)

Two and a half centuries passed with neither sight nor sound of further Tyranid incursions. Nonetheless, when inhabited worlds in the systems of the galactic south-east began to suffer an epidemic of riots, terrorism, sabotage and, in some cases, outright rebellion, the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition was quick to investigate. (...)

(...) the Tyranids had returned with a new hive fleet, codenamed Hive Fleet Kraken. (note: 993.M41)

Codex Tyranids (2004), page 12

 

There have been a lot of instances where Tyranid battles prior to Kraken have been mentioned (recently in the Codex Space Wolves), and I am curiously awaiting the next Codex Tyranids to see whether that is an intentional rewrite of their background or simply ignorance on part of the writers of those stories.

 

The standard Codex gives us generic Veterans, because the Veterans are most likely to have achieved their status fighting against a variety of foes. A Chapter that has fought many, many times against the Orks recently, such as the Crimson Fists, would have specialised knowledge too. Funnily enough, the Crimson Fists had this reflected in their 4th ed rules, being allowed to take Preferred Enemy (Orks). Despite this, the Crimson Fists are still a Codex Chapter. Tyrannic War Veterans were listed as a seperate unit because the SM unit name "Veterans" was alrady taken, and they had to be differentiated.

 

Combat experience doesn't make you non-Codex, non-standard organisation does. After all, how can the Ultramarines Veterans just "ignore" their combat experience, that has been a majority of the time, against a single race?

Only, they are not just Veterans that have experience in fighting Tyranids. They are specifically described as being trained differently, being equipped differently, and as a violation of Codex Doctrine.

 

---

 

Satanaka:

 

Apparently, you didn't read Cassius' entry fluff in the CURRENT codex. It not only explains all that, but writes that Calgar approves of the unit!

Erm, it explains that Calgar tolerates it despite it being a divergence from Codex doctrine.

 

Yes, like in 2nd. The only possible legitimate jump unit anymore that's even worth anything is Vanguard, due to being able to assault the turn they come in, and VG is so expensive, that cost wise, it's almost not worth taking them either, as they will not make their points back.

Whut? So basically jump units have sucked ever since 2nd Edition, and Vanguard veterans are the only ones worth to be considered? :D

 

Sorry, I've learned not to mess with paying extra points for things I have only a 33% chance of doing damage to a Marine with.

Me, I like things that have a 33% chance to instantly remove any Space Marine Character. Bye bye Calgar, bye bye Powerfist Veteran Sergeant. Even a Vindicare Assassin only has a 50% chance to remove a squad leader, and he cannot instantly kill an independent Character.

 

In addition, you mentioned a spam list in the same breath. You're not helping your case any.

What, because I was fighting an army led by a Tzeentch sorcerer that included two Thousand Sons squads it is not a good power? (I had a T5 Nurgle Sorcerer, mind you, and during that game we were mistakenly thinking that my opponent therefor needed a 6 to kill him.)

 

And the sorcerer and his buddies then immediately get punched by the Nob and his 20 friends, because you relied on something that works 33% of the time or on 33% of a group.

Er, if there are 20 Orks left that means the Sorcerer just immolated 10 (!) Orks by himself. A full Havoc Squad with heavy bolters could not do that. And the Sorcerer's friends are probably still going to double tap or charge after he used his power, being his shooting phase and all. Also, since he is a Nurgle Sorcerer his friends might be Plague Marines, who will give the Orks a hard time. Oh, the Nob might kill 1-2.

 

(And if the Sorcerer has taken a Familiar and Gift of Chaos, and I am not saying that you should allways take this combo, but IF he has taken it, he has a 33% chance to take out the Nob next turn. The Orks are in a very bad place at that point.

[Sovereign]

I like the approach of the current one best. Yes, they could have said: Lord w/ MoK makes Berzerks Troops, but in this case, they left things up to the player. If you want to be Fluffy, nothing stops that. If you want to do something different (i.e. 2+ Raptors and 2+ Defilers), you can do that, too.

But how can you be fluffy with such limited unit options, so many units being horribly weak, and issues like no cult terminators?

Huh? I don't think I understand the question. If you want a "Fluffy" army, you simply make one.

 

If you're playing Khorne, you take units of 8, MoK / KB, and call it a day. I don't think anything more is needed.

 

As for "so many units being horribly weak", I don't think that's the case at all - but then it's not like other Codices don't suffer from similar problems. As for Cult Termies, they're right alongside my Drop Guard.

[HERO]

To be perfectly honest:

 

I don't need any more units in the CSM codex. I just want the ability to customize.

 

I would just like to see the following (or something along these lines):

 

All Marks makes the unit Fearless.

Mark of Khorne = +1A, Furious Charge.

Mark of Slaneesh = +1I, Fleet, Sonic Weapons.

Mark of Nurgle = +1T, FNP, Blight Grenades.

Mark of Tzeetch = +1 to their Invulnerable save, Force Weapons, +more spells.

Mark of Undivided = cheapest Mark, re-roll morale checks.

 

I would like to see more equipment, armory upgrades, weapons specific to these Marks. This applies to all heroes and units.

I would like to see Veteran skills back. This applies to all heroes and units.

I would like to see CSM take these Marks on their many of their units. Such as Raptors with Mark of Khorne. Or Terminators with MoK.. A Dread with Mark of Slaneesh so they can use Sonic Weaponry..etc.

I would like to see the sacred numbers back. 6 for Slaneesh, 7 for Nurgle, 8 for Khorne, 9 for Tzeentch. Good number = some extra goodies.

I would like to see CSM take Daemon allies from the Daemon Codex.

I would like to see a few other minor stuff..

 

Yes. Yes, I can dream of a day when this will happen.

[satanaka]

LOL dropping anything CC next to a full unit of Wyches is usually a bad idea. (They half your WS AND subtract the add. attack for two CCW's. You need S6 or more to ignore the Halving of WS.)

Funnily enough lesser daemons are not bothered by either of those special rules. They will hit the Wyches at 4+ regardless (WS is only halved for attacks against the whyches, it does not help the Wyches to better hit), and they have 2 base attacks and no additional CCW.

 

So what do you think of the new Fenrisian Wolf packs in C:SW?

I am not particularly fond of them as a concept. I don't like Marines riding on Wolves and I do not like Marines herding large packs of wolves with them in their space ships, thunderhawks or drop pods.

Rule wise there are a lot of elements in teh new Codex Space Wolves that rub me the wrong way (and I was so looking forward to it), and I did not actually ponder the Fenris Wolves that much. If it was up to me, with the next Codex Space Wolves (2017 or so) I would like to see them gone again. One can hope. (It worked with Tyrannic War Veterans, so maybe it will work here too.)

 

I would also like to point out that Wyches can have a WS of 5, if they roll a 2 on combat drugs at the beginning of the game. It doesn't get any better for the daemons with many of the other rolls either.

 

+1S means Wyches wound on a 4 instead of a 5, meaning a 50/50 chance of wounding. ASF means the daemons go last, like a power fist, meaning a few (average will be 4 daemons for every 10 Wyches) will NOT strike back. Re-roll misses in CC means more hits for the Wyches. +1 A means they have as many attacks as you do.

 

Plus they have a better invul than you do.

 

Again, bad idea.

[satanaka]

And the sorcerer and his buddies then immediately get punched by the Nob and his 20 friends, because you relied on something that works 33% of the time or on 33% of a group.

Er, if there are 20 Orks left that means the Sorcerer just immolated 10 (!) Orks by himself. A full Havoc Squad with heavy bolters could not do that. And the Sorcerer's friends are probably still going to double tap or charge after he used his power, being his shooting phase and all. Also, since he is a Nurgle Sorcerer his friends might be Plague Marines, who will give the Orks a hard time. Oh, the Nob might kill 1-2.

 

(And if the Sorcerer has taken a Familiar and Gift of Chaos, and I am not saying that you should allways take this combo, but IF he has taken it, he has a 33% chance to take out the Nob next turn. The Orks are in a very bad place at that point.

 

 

Umm, hate to tell you but a 10 man squad of Noise marines with Sonic blasters CAN do it.

 

Also in your equation of NR vs. Orks, you're wounding on 5's. I've learned never depend on a 5 to get anything done.

 

Why you'd want to TRY to get into a CC war of attrition with an Ork army is beyond me and shows bad tactics. Chaos armies typically are only 1/3 to 1/2 the size of an ork army and Ork HW are assault.

 

Not to mention that Burna boys are your bane, and with no island hopping anymore, if you by some miracle do break the boyz unit, I will make their points back by running up with a trukk of 10 of them and let you try to make 50 saves, because you got stuck out in the open and can't use cover saves, due to flame weapons don't allow cover.

 

So please, charge the boyz. I WILL make you pay for it and I'll do within the rules.

 

Let's examine cost here.

 

10 Plague marines with a Nurgle sorcerer = 365 points bare bones

 

30 boyz with one PK Nob, a trukk, and 10 burnas = 400 points

 

Roughly close to same cost, but I have 40 models to your 11, you don't seriously think a 3+ armor is going to protect you forever against 60 Shoota shots before the Boyz get there, and 50 wounds once the burnas get there, do you? Not to mention I didn't upgrade to Plasma weapons, that's another 30 points and if you give a plasma pistol in the bunch, that's another 30 points, for a total of 60, and I STILL have you on numbers.

 

All of this is before I start adding in things like Mad Dok Grotsnik with a unit of 5 Meganobz in a trukk ( Mad Dok gives one unit cybork bodies [5+ invul]. Guess what unit gets it AND Feel No Pain?), or even Kommandos with Snikrot (I'll charge you in the flank or rear with this unit when it comes on, if I keep it in reserves at the start of the game.) I won't even go into Ghazakull, due to I never use him with my Orks. (Have the model, but never run it, because it's a real cheesy list. There's really no thought or tactics to it. Think of Ghazakull as the big red easy button of Staples. Push and go.)

 

ANY marine comes out on the bad end of that equation. As I have shown, 33% of the time is way too risky.

[Legatus]

Again, bad idea.

That's why I advise that you may not want to do drop them next to the Wyches.

 

But for kicks, these would be the average results of 10 daemons (30 attacks) assaulting 10 Wyches (20 Attacks) (120 points each) with different results:

 

12" assault or ASF (makes no difference as they have Initiative 6): --> Wyches kill 2 Daemons, remaining Daemons kill 4 Wyches

 

+1 WS: --> Wyches kill 3 Daemons, remaining Daemons will kill 2-3 Wyches

 

+1 S: --> Wyches kill 3 Daemons, remaining Daemons kill 3 Wyches

 

re-roll: --> Wyches kill 3 Daemons, remaining Daemons kill 3 Wyches

 

+1 Attack: --> Wyches kill 3 Daemons, remaining Daemons kill 3 Wyches

 

Wyches are not exactly among the most destructive CC units you could have picked, and not the most resilient either. With +1 WS they get a slight edge because now they are harder to hit. In all other instances the Daemons' S/T of 4 and number of attacks makes up for it.

 

Umm, hate to tell you but a 10 man squad of Noise marines with Sonic blasters CAN do it.

That's great. You don't have to hate to tell me. Feel free to use Noise Marines, then, they can be a usefull unit. Does that make Nurgles Rott less neat? Not really.

 

Also in your equation of NR vs. Orks, you're wounding on 5's. I've learned never depend on a 5 to get anything done.

The idea is that you are rolling hands full of dice when enough enemy models are close. If there are 12 Orks within range, you will take out 4. If there are 24 within range, you take out 8. You will not find a lot of psychic powers that can inflict that amount of mass damage.

 

Why you'd want to TRY to get into a CC war of attrition with an Ork army is beyond me and shows bad tactics.

 

(...)

Are we honestly discussing now whether a Nurgle heavy CSM army has a chance against an Ork army? :D

[Grey Mage]

Why you'd want to TRY to get into a CC war of attrition with an Ork army is beyond me and shows bad tactics.

 

(...)

Are we honestly discussing now whether a Nurgle heavy CSM army has a chance against an Ork army? :D

Is he honestly trying to say that hed rather NOT be in a war of attrition against orks?

 

Because seriously... orks do most of their damage on the charge when their strength is higher and they have extra attacks.... that should be pretty obvious to anyone whos ever fought them, or played as them, or bothered to read their codex. A war of attrition always goes badly for orks- because they die more easily than marines, and dont deal out the damage as well after round 1.

 

Against Plaguemarines... well,it aint pretty.

[the jeske]

Me, I like things that have a 33% chance to instantly remove any Space Marine Character. Bye bye Calgar, bye bye Powerfist Veteran Sergeant. Even a Vindicare Assassin only has a 50% chance to remove a squad leader, and he cannot instantly kill an independent Character.

your forgetting the test for the power to work and getting through psychic hood or rune staff.

 

 

Er, if there are 20 Orks left that means the Sorcerer just immolated 10 (!) Orks by himself.

and the unit is still scoring , still fearless[more then 12 models] , still on objective [or didnt give up a kill point ] while you lost a counter unit [kill point in kill point missions] . yeah totally makes it worth it .

And if the Sorcerer has taken a Familiar and Gift of Chaos, and I am not saying that you should allways take this combo, but IF he has taken it, he has a 33% chance to take out the Nob next turn

only he is an IC and the nob is not , so the sorc is eating a fist this turn. what more or less gives him a 50% chance to do nothing next turn.

 

 

As for "so many units being horribly weak", I don't think that's the case at all - but then it's not like other Codices don't suffer from similar problems.

ok but what codexs are those . necro with their 1 lists , the highlly nerfed nids that have problems with 5th ed rules [because they were desinged around rending and MC mechanics] etc . Yes the codex sm does have vanguard and the codex SW has BC that dont make much sense . The thing is they also have 3+ different builds , all fluffy[this is a bad word imo , not fluffy but having the spirit of the army] and all playable . Chaos does not have that . I cant build an army around chosen and make it work , because 5th ed mechanics make armies without scoring units sucks [and they die like normal csm only for more points]. Same with NL I cant pack a list full of bikes/raptors , because those units dont work . EC or WB demon bomb ? even if I go counts as with the demons , it still doesnt work , because mecha and bigger squad[and because LSD are not an optimal hth unit].

If you want a "Fluffy" army, you simply make one.

that is the problem I cant . A white scar player can ,a Sw player can , but an AL or WB player cant do that , because A there fluffy choices are gone or dont work .

 

Against Plaguemarines... well,it aint pretty.

+nobs with claws ignore the most important part of PM units FnP and t5.

 

None of these "universal special rules" had been available as a veteran skill in any prior Codex. I hope you are not trying to insinuate that the Codex Chaos has no units with fancy universal special rules. "

I dont see teh difference in game play between an army with ouflank on eveything [but not being forced to use it] and a shoty infiltration build for AL or the same infiltration build [-gunline] from old sm dex.

They have access to very potent Troops units with "fearless","furious charge", "feel no pain

yes . if they happen to be playing BL or one of the cult armies , then yes. What kind of brings us back to the one army thing and buffs , if your BL and that is all.

 

More to the point, how is hulking up via a psychic buff then smashing someone different than just smashing them

because your not manipulating the warp when doing it. you get "stronger" because you warp reality and not because you have overgrown muscles.

[Brother Nihm]

You were asked to keep this on-topic.