Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Lord_Caerolion]

..Night Lords are Terror Shock Troopers with permanent Night Vision, not Guerrilla Fighters who terrorize the landscape (little bit of this but not that much).

 

Edit: I posted my opinion on the board, not that it really matters.

 

I had something posted up, but it said it was "awaiting moderation", or something like that. I'll try reposting, but cut it down a bit.

 

And unfortunately for your comment about the Night Lords, we seem to be the unfortunate correct minority in regards to them. Most other people seem to see the as a hybrid Chaos Raven Guard/White Scars...

[incinerator950]

cut what down?

[Legatus]

I have enjoyed playing Undivided NLs or Undivided with some PMs or Zerks with the new Codex. It works very well for me, so I must be doing something wrong. There are a few things I am not completely happy with, but I am not mourning the loss of the 3.5 Codex.

[Lord_Caerolion]

cut what down?

 

Thought the post might be a bit too long, because on a recent check, my post wasn't there.

[incinerator950]

D: oh, I don't see an edit function, sorry I guess? I thought you were telling me to tone down.

 

My army is almost identical to the one I had back for 3.5, save Defilers for heavy support and Plague marines, with a Sorc instead of a Cheap Nurgle Lord with a man reaper and frags. I mourn it's loss regardless.

[D3ATHRAV3N]

The blandness of the new Chaos Codex is not what grinds my gears the most, its just the obvious lack of playtesting.

 

I think its house-rules time tbh, im gonna impose a 0-1 restriction on Obliterators, Lash and Daemon princes, and maybe make possessed and Noisemarines 2-3pts cheaper in my household :)

[incinerator950]

that sounds reasonable, How bout a Chaos dreadnaught with a little nicer CCW prowess and lack of insanity.

 

I was thinking of my own Apoc Defiler, put armor on the front, get an extra pair of legs for support, and put a Demolisher Cannon instead of a Battle Cannon on it.

[Castlerook]

Like most people I was disappointed when the 4.0 Chaos Codex was released as it pretty much made my old Night Lords army obsolete. There weren't even a lot of upgrades in the army, just the structure was useless now.

 

My biggest gripe was that nothing was added to the list, the only new unit was Horun Blackheart, and lets face it, he is just a Lord with a fancy arm in rule terms and actually, as a special character I wouldn't count him as a new unit, how often would you use him compared to a new unit type of Chaos Marines?

 

I could understand some of followers of Chaos summoning generic daemons so they won't be tied to a particular god, but what about the Cults? If your going to war, isn't it a smack to your patron's face that you don't at least try to summon a few of their daemons?

 

Just going back to the point about nothing new being added, some people might believe "so what?", but lets just take a look at the codexes that have been released since Chaos 4.0 and the number of new units they've gotten (Not including Special Characters/Special Units)

Orks - Weirdboyz, Deffkoptas (Not a huge amount but its certainly bonus not to hunt down a Codex Armageddon in order to play the Koptas). Nearly 10% of the codex is made up of "new units"

Space Marines - Chapter Master, The Master of the Forge, Sternguard/Vanguard (Veterans have alway existed, but the new rules/equipment and how their used means they now count as 2 new units in my book), Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire Cannon, Land Raider Redeemer. 27% of the Codex is entirely new or reworked units.

Imperial Guard - Lord Commissar, Primaris Psyker, Psyker Battle Squad, Penal Legionaires, Armour Sentinels, Devil Dog, Bane Wolf, Valkyrie, Vendetta, Leman Russ Eradicator, Punisher, Executioner, Hydra Flak Tanks, Medusa, Colossus, Manticores and deathstrike missile launchers. Thats a huge 43% increase in the number of new units available to the Guard.

 

I'm sure all many of us want is just the same effort put into a Chaos Codex that was made for later books. An army list that allows you to make a friendly "pick up and play" army to a fluffy, competitive tournament army. The lists don't have to be overpowered to be successful, or so weakened that the same 3 or 4 "broken" units are seen in every list. Sure we want variety, but, at the same time we want to be able to make a list with our own restrictions, a Night Lords force with infantry, not just Raptors or Bikers, scaring the hell out of the enemy as they get torn apart by a vicious and sudden attack. Word Bearers should be beseeching the Chaos Gods for their minions, not asking Jedush, the Puppy Eater, to send a couple of daemons. An Alpha Legion cell should be sowing confusion behind enemy lines, not providing an power armoured shield for some Vindicators or nearly a dozen obliterators.

 

The 3.5 codex wasn't perfect, in fact it was a little overpowered, but damn if it didn't let you field fluffy Chaos Armies.

[chillin]

I have enjoyed playing Undivided NLs or Undivided with some PMs or Zerks with the new Codex. It works very well for me, so I must be doing something wrong.

 

People saying stuff like this is what I don't understand (not trying to have a tude here or sound harsh, just didn't know how else to phrase it ;) ) This dex offers you nothing that 3.5 didn't, you can't do anything in this dex you couldn't in 3.5. You could have used PM or brzrkrs in your NL's army in 3.5, you just wouldn't have gotten the NL's special rules, just like you don't now. But at least in 3.5 you had the option, now you don't. No matter how many times Thorpe sz it, less options does not = more freedom, less options = less freedom, that's just common sense.

[incinerator950]

If common sense was common, more people would have it Corpse.

[Legatus]

This dex offers you nothing that 3.5 didn't, you can't do anything in this dex you couldn't in 3.5.

Er...

 

- My CSM squads now come with both boltguns AND BP/CCW, which alone is simply awesome. They also now come with free frag and krak grenades. The basic Chaos Space Marine is a very potent warrior, armed to the teeth. Chaos Space Marines are not just your mandatory Troop choices you have to take because of the Force organisation chart. That is why I cannot understand the claims that chaos is not competetive without Cult units and leashes.

 

- Berserkers are now superior fighters instead of just crazed loons.

 

- Plague Marines are super though.

 

- Raptors are like 10 points cheaper.

 

- If I accept that iconed units are risky I can use "World Eater Havocs", the "teeth of Khorne" as they were called in "Slaves to Darkness" tome, with either ripping Boltguns and Autocannons or four flame throwers.

 

I could understand some of followers of Chaos summoning generic daemons so they won't be tied to a particular god, but what about the Cults? If your going to war, isn't it a smack to your patron's face that you don't at least try to summon a few of their daemons?

Statements such as these allways make me cringe, and it seems almost like really the unimaginative players are the problem, not the Codex. I have used my own converted "Furies" for years, even with the 3.5 Codex, because I did not particularly like the official models. The generic daemon rules have given me a lot of ideas how different kinds of daemons could be converted. A lot of them would be "undivided" daemons, but I also have had a few cult daemon ideas. For example, one idea is to take the classic Tyranid rippers, stack a few on top of each other on one infantry base (to get a creature of about humanoid size), paint them fleshy/reddish, and you have "flesh worms of khorne", warp creatures that follow the World Eaters around and feast on the corpses of their victims.

Another idea is to simply put some WHFB zombies on round bases and use them as "Nurgle Plague Zombies" which are suddenly crawling out of buildings and holes (i.e. being summoned) to attack the enemy units. Just because the rules are for "lesser generic daemons" it does not mean that they could not be cult affiliated.

[incinerator950]

I blame the creator, not the players. Usually the fanbase is what kicks something over, but Thorpe didn't leave much room for imagination and most "Creativity" in this game I see is people eking something out of the codex, rather than original thought.

 

Really, the only imagination I get from people are people from opposing sides of the God Wars and who want to use an awesome model, so Counts as. Also, Lesser Demons are generic and bland, yes you can customize them to look good, but their performance is less than optimal, I might as well melt some plastic and use small blobs, and say I used melted GW stuff to make them, lol. They can be cult affiliated, but unless the rules say anything they're just generic. It won't stop me from making my Greater Demon semi decent.

 

You left out the other 2 cult choices. If thorpe's intention was to make the codex bland and without restriction so everyone could use counts as and do what they want, then he needs to actually play the Army and get into it, rather than write some half-assed crap about it.

[Legatus]

You left out the other 2 cult choices.

I do not use the other 2 cult choices. I took that inquiry about what the Codex would give me that 3.5 didn't personal, and answered it as such.

 

Also, Lesser Demons are generic and bland, yes you can customize them to look good, but their performance is less than optimal

You are playing Chaos Space Marines. You can add some daemons for flavour. They will not be your awesome killer units. The 30 extra attacks you get for 130 points are actually pretty good, and you can drop them where you need them. Just because it is not wearing power armour or has power weapons does not make it useless.

[incinerator950]

Don't strawman, I didn't say useless, I said less than optimal, doesn't mean I said they suck.

[Legatus]

I didn't say useless, I said less than optimal

You say potato... I mainly saw you refering to them as a "not very attractive choice" which therefor would not be worth taking. And I am not sure what you would consider "optimal performance" for a 13 point "deep strike + attack" unit.

[incinerator950]

I consider the Vanilla Chaos Marine Optimal if you must know.

[the jeske]

- My CSM squads now come with both boltguns AND BP/CCW, which alone is simply awesome. They also now come with free frag and krak grenades. The basic Chaos Space Marine is a very potent warrior, armed to the teeth. Chaos Space Marines are not just your mandatory Troop choices you have to take because of the Force organisation chart. That is why I cannot understand the claims that chaos is not competetive without Cult units and leashes.

what doesnt change the fact that with two specials , meltas or flamers chaos is a short range fire power army [like it was in 3.5 dex for all armies save IW gunline] most of the time pistols and ccw are used .

also the way the icon system works in most match ups cult marines are a better choice , only eldar and demons are different because of all the power weapons and high str low ap weapons its better to have 10 csm then 7 pms or 8 zerkers .

 

 

- Berserkers are now superior fighters instead of just crazed loons.

you want to tell me that zerkers with choppas and pseudo fleet were not a good option in 3.5 and that they somehow were not good hth unit in 5th ed .

- Plague Marines are super though.

no they are more tough then they were before . in 3.5 ed they were tough enough. DG builds may not have been khorn BL , but still were tier 1 and not just because they run two speed/inf Lts .

 

- Raptors are like 10 points cheaper.

and still are not viable , because the focus in 5th ed is on troops and not FA/elite/hvies [or at least its not there if you dont have the special characters to make them scoring], so nothing changed here .

I do not use the other 2 cult choices. I took that inquiry about what the Codex would give me that 3.5 didn't personal, and answered it as such.

not a problem I can do that for you. in 3.5 dex 1ksons. toughest army to play , not even tier 2 . a sorc build for fluff with thrall sorc etc was closest thing one could get to tier 2 . largelly unplayable. In 5th ed 1k sons no more the sorc army , pseudo shoty with str 4 ap3 bolters , but with cover being lowered [the +4 inv they pay for , now every ork gets for free] and still being only str 4 a super hard army to play . because of cover and because units are 10 man now [in case of meq] a +3 per army choice , making it impossible to run them like zerkers or pms [a single camper unit or a single unit in a LR rush build].

 

 

NM [my army]. the demon bomb army , dead in 4th ed dex. the worst idea of the 3.5 dex the syren prince is now replaced with 2xlash prince[so yeah it changed a bit , we use 2 DPs now :lol:]. sonic marines over costed still , only way to play it is either no sonics and hth [the old 6 man plas squads with infiltration to summon demons worked a bit like that] or water warrior style with sonics [again the same we had in 3.5 "only" we lost havocks , bikers and dreadnought support that list used in 4th ed].

 

 

 

Just because it is not wearing power armour or has power weapons does not make it useless.

yes it does . those 130 pts are almost the cost of a naked 10 man csm squad its 15 pts more then a termicid , its almost two oblits . hell its 2/3 of a cost of a demon prince. a camper unit of NM with blast master cost almost the same . all of those are either more resilient , less random and most of all more useful in all chaos builds.

[Legatus]

you want to tell me that zerkers with choppas and pseudo fleet were not a good option in 3.5 and that they somehow were not good hth unit in 5th ed .

I also play World Eaters from time to time, and I did not really like the 3.5 representation of Berserkers all that much. Berserkers allways had more attacks because they were frenzied. The Mark of Khorne usually granted them a different sort of power (in 2nd Ed. it was better armour, in 3rd Ed it was higher Strength). In 3.5... it made them frenzied. So basically, dedication to Khorne did not make you a better fighter or stronger, it did not improve your abilities, it just made you crazy.

 

- in 2nd Edition Berserkers were frenzied, and the Mark of Khorne improved their armour

 

- in 3rd Edition Berserker were freinzied (still the additional attacks), and the Mark of Khorne made Champions stronger

 

- in 3.5 Berserkers were frenzied (now with frenzy jumping out of transports)... and that's what the Mark of Khorne did

 

- in 4th Edition Berserkers are frenzied (juping out of Rhinos gone, but furious charge now), and they have higher weapon skill

 

The current incarnation is by far my favourite since 2nd Edition.

 

no they are more tough then they were before

And of course they come with Boltgun, BP/CCW, frag krak AND blight grenades.

 

- Raptors are like 10 points cheaper.

 

and still are not viable

20 point jump pack assault Marines are very viable, thank you.

 

those 130 pts are almost the cost of a naked 10 man csm squad its 15 pts more then a termicid , its almost two oblits . hell its 2/3 of a cost of a demon prince. a camper unit of NM with blast master cost almost the same . all of those are either more resilient , less random and most of all more useful in all chaos builds.

And neither of those units will appear near one of your assault units where you want them and add another 30 Strength 4 attacks to your assault.

[Captain Idaho]

People people people, don't you see?! Codex Chaos Marines was the template they used for the great Codex books we have now! They learnt with them, Dark Angels and even Orks and Chaos Daemons, and now we have Codex books that truely are awesome (last 2 being IG and Space Marines, the Pups looks like it is shaping up to be good too).

 

I point to this:

 

With hindsight, I agree; we could have been a little less puritan with Daemon Princes – and characters in general – with regard to the range of powers and wargear. As the ‘player-on-the-tabletop’ these sorts of imposing personalities should have plenty of scope for customisation and individuality.

 

It was a learning curve, they get they cut too deep with the surgeons knife, which is why the Codex books just got better.

 

Sure it sucks some Codex books were at the bottom of the ladder while the design studio went through their learning curve, but hey at least the next Codex Chaos Space Marines will be amazing!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

We know Captain. We're just all bitter because we're stuck with it for another 2-3 years :o

[Captain Idaho]

We know Captain. We're just all bitter because we're stuck with it for another 2-3 years ;)

 

I do feel for you guys, I really do. I lost my gaming group because of the new Codex upsetting so many people :o

 

But I am optimistic since Codex Space Marines came out, as GW are now moving in the right direction.

[Brother Hadafix]

My thoughts towards Mr Thorpe words are less than enthusiastic, and its a pity that he has not learnt "why" people were so upset with what he did.

 

It is however, clear from his writings, that he has very little clue about the armies or rules of 40K. It is also clear that he has missed out on GWs statement that you play with whats in your codex, as your codex is suppose to be a complete list of rules on theyre own.

 

The 4.0 vs 3.5 argument is done to death, most of us know where we stand, but it appears so did Mr Thorpe, yet the C:CSM fails to even find a middle ground for the thinking of both camps, only that which came into the former.

 

For those that still argue "counts as" is good enough however, I still write a back drop for any army I collect and if I were to collect the 4.0 version of C:CSM, the designers notes would now have given me a good base on which to make a Malal army where all my troops "count as" Abbadon. Care for a game?

[DuskRaider]

...Statements such as these allways make me cringe, and it seems almost like really the unimaginative players are the problem, not the Codex...

 

No, don't pull that crap. I shouldn't HAVE to be "imaginative" to make a fluffy army. And even then, how am I supposed to become "imaginative" about my Plague Terminators, Plague Havocs, Plague Daemon Prince, Plague Lord, and Plague Sorcerer? Plague as in, "they're Fearless, have actual Nurgle options, have an actual Wargear section, Blight Grenades, have a Mark and not some ridiculous Icon, and give me bonuses for being fluffy and using the Sacred Numbers"? You see, that "use your imagination" garbage is just an excuse for those who wrote a horrible codex and tried to pass it off as "Simpler, Better, More Fun!" Bull. Stop making excuses for poor planning and design, and stop using a ridiculous reason why those of us who DID field fun armies, not even powerful armies, are now suddenly screwed over because GW decided they were going to make EVERY Codex "streamlined", when in fact only us Chaos Players, Blood Angels players and Dark Angels players got the screws.

[Legatus]

No, don't pull that crap. I shouldn't HAVE to be "imaginative" to make a fluffy army.

In this particular instance it was the notion that the "lesser daemons" are only suitable to represent undivided creatures, and not just as much lesser creatures affiliated to one of the four dark gods. I can understand if one wishes for a better representation of cult marines, but I cannot agree to claims that the lesser daemons cannot be used as lesser khorne or nurgle critters. They are not the infamous "Bloodletters" or "Plaguebearers", but they are less powerful creatures of that cult.

[DuskRaider]

I won't lie... I could care less about Daemons. I didn't use them (or rarely did) in 3.5, I have NO desire to use them in 4th Edition (they really do suck), and I like the Daemons codex. That being said, they COULD allow us to use the Lesser Daemons from Codex: Daemons with a point increase, or don't count them as scoring... Or even limit them to 0-1 or 0-2. That being said, I can see how Word Bearer players felt cheated.