Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[refuse]

Not sure what codex he is even talking about:

 

Bear in mind that a lot of the variant armies people associate with the old Codex were not in fact from the Codex, but from the Index Astartes articles, which themselves made up two extra volumes (if one dismisses all of that Loyalist stuff!). As a lot of those tweaks and variants weren’t in Codex: CSM, the possiblity of extra Codexes addresses that issue in a way that would be far more satsifying than a few pages in a White Dwarf.

3.0 had additional information in WD adn the Index Astartes articles.

3.5 invalidated them, as it was added to the main codex.

 

Which codex is he talking about? 3.0 had index astartes articles, that stopped once 3.5 shipped (they removed the army lists).

 

So makes you wonder, which codecies is he using as his example? 3.0 with extended Index astartes, ignoring 3.5? Or is he comparing 3.5 to 3.0?

 

He then goes on to talking about codex:Daemons, so I assume he is comparing 3.5 to 4.0, but 3.5 never had rules in WD that changed the way it behaved, so the entire article is questionable about it's value and the point it is trying to make, as fundamentally it is arguing about things that he doesn't draw conclusions from.

 

To quote him:

I firmly believe that an informed opinion is far better than an uninformed one, even if that opinion differs from mine.

It seems the the article is based on uninformed, or mis-information about codecies and their index astartes articles that modified them.

 

Ah well.

 

Continuing down that route:

The same is true of cultists and the Lost and the Damned list – there are all sorts of other Imperial troops like the Arbites, Sisters of Battle, Planetary Defence forces, Assassins, navy crews, Adeptus Mechanicus and many others. Yet I never received a complaint that these could not be used in a Space Marines army…

There are rules in place (or there was when the codecies were valid) to take SOB and add in IG or SM. Lost and the Damned had rules to do the same (outside of Armegeddon). Assassins could be used in SM armies as well as GK and SOB, so again, they could be used in SM armies.

 

You start to wonder, what point is trying to be made. Are we talking about 3rd edition as it was printed, or as he remembers it! PDF forces were represented (or representable) in IG through doctrines.

 

Perhaps he didn't read those codecies where you could use units from the other armies to combine them.

 

And it continues:

The outlook on this seems to come from a purely traditional approach – that there was a Daemons list and a cultists list in the 2nd edition 40K Codex: Chaos. Even then, they were separate lists! They were only folded into the Chaos Space Marines in the previous version of the Codex.

The traditional version (RT era) had them together.

Daemons came around in RT era with the marines. There was no Deamon only armies then. Heck there never has been, though there was an alternate list in the back of 2nd edition. Not sure which one he is mentioning again. 3.0 or 3.5 as both had daemons in the same book much like 2nd. Perhaps he is unaware of the original 3.0 Chaos codex, or is merging the two in his memory, since deamons were in the last 2 (3.0 and 3.5) as well as parts of 2.0 and definately part of RT era.

 

By the same token, I’d happily play against your Space Marines and Sisters of Battle allies, or your ‘Traitor Guard’ army with a few squads of Black Legion. Got a Basilisk in Iron Warriors’ colours?

All valid during 3.0, either in SOB armies, and LatD armies, and 3.5 with Basalisks.

Again, open to what previously was legal, and now has to be legal cause he is open.

[chillin]

This dex offers you nothing that 3.5 didn't, you can't do anything in this dex you couldn't in 3.5.

Er...

 

- My CSM squads now come with both boltguns AND BP/CCW, which alone is simply awesome. They also now come with free frag and krak grenades. The basic Chaos Space Marine is a very potent warrior, armed to the teeth.

 

You are missing my point completely, I didn't say anything about csm's not being good (not really sure how you got that actually b/c I mentioned nothing about it at all). You said you could now use PM's and brzrkrs in your NL's army. I pointed out that you could do the same in 3.5, nothing was stopping you. So how has losing legion rules allowed you to do something that you could not do before ?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Depressing information Refuse :devil:

[Legatus]

Not sure what codex he is even talking about:

He probably means that the Legion rules in 3.5 were basically variations of the rules that had previously been given in the WD Index Astartes series. The 3.5 daemon rules had been available through a WD prior to the 3.5 Codex as well.

 

You are missing my point completely, I didn't say anything about csm's not being good (not really sure how you got that actually b/c I mentioned nothing about it at all). You said you could now use PM's and brzrkrs in your NL's army.

I said I enjoyed playing NLs woth some PMs and Berserkers with the current Codex. I could play such an army back in 3.5, but I do like the current CSM, PM and Berserker rules more.

 

Edit: Plus, now I don't have to "feel bad" for not playing according to the Night Lords legion list. :devil: Though I was already used to play "chaos warband" from 2nd and 3rd Edition. I guess someone who started Chaos with 3.5 and it's stricter Legion distinctions would perhaps have more problems switching to "warband".

[incinerator950]

Depressing information Refuse :)

 

I like refuse for being blatantly honest, and accurate on his information. I just which the honesty part was nicer :(

[Castlerook]

A lot of whats good for you isn't nice.

 

One or even two almost balanced units don't mean a whole lot when the rest of the list is underpowered. The Chaos Codex really only allows for a couple of decent builds, while other lists offer a wide selections of builds, each quite different from the last. A typical Chaos army just seems to be a couple of Daemon Princes/Sorcerers with some brutal assault units making up the core, any other units just seem to ablative armour protecting this core. Its not challenging and really says nothing about how good someone is, its an unimaginative list, a cookie cut army if you will.

 

Chaos armies shouldn't be like that, you shouldn't be able to predict what your Chaos buddy is going to play. A Chaos army should keep its oppenent on its toes. Its the surprise of what someone brings is the greatest weapon a player has, after all, your oppenent has to react to what you've brought, even if you have to react to theirs, even one surprise can tip the game your way. But, Chaos has lost this edge, and because of this Chaos has lost its biggest draw, its unpredictability. A Space Marine army can now be far more dangerous, because you have no idea what someone will bring, will it be a Drop Pod Force, Mechanised Armour, a heavy infantry force or the Master of the Forge and the Chapter's most dangerous weapons?

 

Imperial Guard are just as terrifying, the number of armies you can make with the list is just plain silly. Last mini tournament I saw, there were Air Cav armies, Armoured Companies, Sniper Veterans, Drive-By Veterans, Rending Penal Legions. Out of 28 armies taking part, 6 of the top 8 were Guard. The rest were Marines and Eldar. Where were Chaos? Not quite last, but still fairly low. I've heard one previous champion say;

"Chaos has gone from being the most vicious army, to the old dog of the armies, all bark and no teeth"

 

Hopefully GW will realise that this particular old dog can learn new tricks and be wild unpredictable again someday.

[chillin]

its an unimaginative list, a cookie cut army if you will.

Chaos armies shouldn't be like that, you shouldn't be able to predict what your Chaos buddy is going to play.

 

I totally agree with that,,, in 3.5 someone telling you they played chaos would give you almost no insight into what kind of army it might be. Hell, even the guys I played all the time had no idea what kind of army I would bring from one game to the next. My 10-12 LC gunline list, my termi's & oblits everywhere list, my brzrkrs & bloodletters chop everything to pieces list, my PM's and PB's bring everything to a crinding halt & drive you crazy list, or my all undivided csm's & furies "OMG they're evrywhere" list. And that was just my BL, there were 8 other chaos legions w/ there own rules.

Now if someone tells you they play chaos you can ask "the list with lash or the one without ?" ^_^

[Corpse.]

A side note (perhaps to lighten the topic a bit) on a side-apocalypse setting for standard games.

 

Since we're forced to take scoring units, and HQ's can get pretty spendy, and refusing to play someone with a decked out army with 10 HQ's (because its a game both sides have to agree to play) ~ we just remove the FoC restrictions just like apoc, with the only rule is that the entire army must be from one codex, no allies included. (I thought we could have SoB+GK and such but I was incorrect)

 

That house rule seems to have people using certain apocalypse datasheets, and clever armies to get around titan-centerpiece forces. A scout titan still fails to defeat 5 laspredators in a proper match. The game can be refused, who would pit their ork mob army against a titan? The refusing function is perfectly accepted - its more like a "Hey you got an army that can take on titans?" and they answer yes/no. Not a case of "Can I use my titan?" ~ since we gathered its simpler to think in the glass is half full rather then half empty approach. (Mostly due we face more land radiers/leman russes with similar armor values in a regular game these days, thank the IG for that...)

 

Having seen ravenor armies with hormagaunts+warriors with converted bodies to look like raveners now able to play fully as he wishes up to 3k (over 40 ravenors in the army) it seems really fun having the chance to play those fellas with armies like those. The datasheets rarely get used for this gameplay here. Some people do take 4+ HQ's, but in the light of how many instant death weapons people tend to take with no FoC limits, and being up to the player how many scoring units he takes makes it more open. (I have indeed seen a WoN gaunt Nidzilla force get separated, and have his gaunts forced off the table in a objectives game.)

 

Though I wish I didn't have to go up against that 15 vendetta player in those 2500+ matches he challenges me to. He is the hardest to take down.... (Yes people min-max it here, like buttloads of obliterators as single man units, though we get to have titans against armies like that)

[Askari]

Problem is that then you have some people that have to refuse o play or get refused to play all the time because of their army type. If everyone is making armies to fight Titans then no one will play the ork horde. When using solid rules that's less likely to happen because it's official and you can have some faith it isn't going to be unfair because of the FOC. That's why a good codex is important. It's something Thorpe doesn't get.

[the jeske]

And of course they come with Boltgun, BP/CCW, frag krak AND blight grenades.

nope. but they had true grit ,frags, kraks blight could be bought . from a mechanical point of view in the 4th ed they were a close range , double tap unit that worked best witing 12" or smaller of opponent units and now they work the same . the only difference is that in 3.5 dex they used infiltration to do it and now they use rhinos.

I said I enjoyed playing NLs woth some PMs and Berserkers with the current Codex

you mean those NL , that always showed contempt to chaos gods and never dedicted themselfs to one good ?[unless you want to go back to RT fluff , but that has be retconed years ago]. not to mention that my AL will be the same pms and zerkers .

 

Refuse I wrote all about him missing WH/DH dexs and my post got deleted . Either my english is not good enough or some people dont like critique.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It just doesn't seem to like some people. I posted a long-ish reply up, which was then "awaiting moderation". A while later, it vanished. I posted again, waiting moderation. Checked again, both are there waiting moderation, just checked now, both aren't there. The hell is going on?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm guessing the awaiting moderation thing means that they have to be reviewed and OK'ed before they show up. That or there is some word or phrase in them that is setting off a moderation filter that means they have to be OK'ed before they show up.

[Legatus]

you mean those NL , that always showed contempt to chaos gods and never dedicted themselfs to one good ?

As I said, I am used to play "warband" from 2nd and 3rd Edition. the idea that the traitor Legions keep strictly to themselves was introduced with the Index Astartes articles, but even then especially the cult units should still more often be found in different Legions forces than in strict cult forces. The Thousand Sons are divided into those that follow Magnus and those that follow Ahriman. The World Eaters have pretty much lost all cohesion. According to the Emperor's Children Index Astartes their Legion was shattered during the struggle between the traitor Legions inside the Eye of terror. Similarly the Deathguard is described as having been broken down into smaller units and scattered through space and time with the elevationof Mortarion into daemonhood.

That said, I do mostly play strictly undivided, maybe with an Icon of Khorne thrown in for my "veteran Raptors". So far it has worked out pretty good.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm guessing the awaiting moderation thing means that they have to be reviewed and OK'ed before they show up. That or there is some word or phrase in them that is setting off a moderation filter that means they have to be OK'ed before they show up.

 

Nope, just got about 90 emails in the space of around 5 minutes, so obviously Gav has to go through and tick each message. Unfortunately though, both copies of my post are now up there, with no option of removing one.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm guessing the awaiting moderation thing means that they have to be reviewed and OK'ed before they show up. That or there is some word or phrase in them that is setting off a moderation filter that means they have to be OK'ed before they show up.

 

Looks like i was right. A ton of new posts have just showed up, including the ones from you guys in this thread.

[the jeske]

the idea that the traitor Legions keep strictly to themselves was introduced with the Index Astartes articles, but even then especially the cult units should still more often be found in different Legions forces than in strict cult force

thats not true , the legions always more or less hated each other since the time of RT . it was in the 2ed fluff too, only not in the rules . mainlly because the book was already the bigest dex they ever made [and still chambers had to cut all legion stuff they wanted to do] . one cant say much about the chaos JJ dex from fluff point of view , because it had close to 0 fluff[much like the dex we have right now] and had such gems like chaos sorc with mark of khorn etc . We are getting the same crap about the chaos happy family now too. there is absolutlly no way [save maybe for abadon being personally on the spot] a WE and EC force would fight at the same battlefield. Csm distrust each other too much for stuff like that to work and one when remember that for a khorn follower someone who doesnt worship khorn is the same as someone not worshiping the emperor for a loyalist , then the whole warband thing starts to make no sense . It also kills the whole idea of black legion . I mean if every chaos lord can lead zerkers and noise marines in one army , then whats so special about the BL gimick of having worshipers of all chaos gods in one legion?

[Castlerook]

There have always been 2 armies which never seem to be very cohesive, Orks and every Chaos army before (and after) the 3.5 Codex. Why would warbands which despise each other work alongside each other? Why would a Thousand Sons lord have Death Guard followers? They'd be trying to kill each other as soon as they saw the other. There are only supposed to be a handful of Chaos Lords with the strength of will to have the dedicated servents of the gods in the same place without them ripping the other's throats out, and yet every Chaos army now seems to have been involved in an explosion at a paint factory.

 

The only Chaos faction that would even remotely work for any of the cults are Night Lords and thats because their in it for the material wealth, not for anything remotely noble or to please a diety. Even Renegades wouldn't battle alongside a Cult for too long because it ties them to the particular God and they've already thrown off the yoke of serving a monothestic culture, why suddenly start worshiping another one?

 

The Legion rules weren't that restrictive, there were a bonus for sticking to one Legion, real bonuses. But whats the point now? Theres no incentive in sticking with one Legion beyond just painting it. Now theres nothing to really tie a Chaos army together now, which is truly a shame because Chaos armies used to allow a huge scope for themed armies.

[Legatus]

The undivided Legions might stick more to their own, and really there is no game play reason why you would have to paint your regular CSM in different Legion colours. But that is not true for the Cult Legions. Pretty much every of the 4 cult Legions is disbanded, and they fight for whichever warband will take them or they can sympathise with, same as with Obliterators and Raptors. You might not see Night Lords in a Word Bearers force, but you will see berserkers in a Night Lords force or Thousand Sons in an Alpha Legion force.

 

The Legion rules weren't that restrictive, there were a bonus for sticking to one Legion, real bonuses.

That's not how I remember the Legion rules. Quite the Opposite. Night Lords and Iron Warriors had some neat traits (by losing only all cult units, so about 80% of the choices), but the cult Legions did not. Free champions, oh wow. You are only limited to 20% of the Codex choices.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Cults also got a +1 to summon daemons. Death Guard got their Rhino limitation, and Emperors Children got sonic weaponry on tanks. And once more, you didn't have to use the Cult rules. Want to get some other non-Cult units? You could, its called the standard list!

 

As for the Night Lords, the only thing I really used from their Legion rules was the free Night Vision, and occasionally Stealth Adept. I still believe the way to go for Night Lords Legion rules would have been a cheaper Daemonic Visage for Champions/Lords, non 0-1 Raptors (but no extra Fast Attack), and possibly allow a single squad of Cult troops, representing the Radical Night Lords usage of Chaos for material gain. The use of Veteran Skills suited those of us with a more hardline "non-Chaos" feel.

[Castlerook]

The undivided Legions might stick more to their own, and really there is no game play reason why you would have to paint your regular CSM in different Legion colours. But that is not true for the Cult Legions. Pretty much every of the 4 cult Legions is disbanded, and they fight for whichever warband will take them or they can sympathise with, same as with Obliterators and Raptors. You might not see Night Lords in a Word Bearers force, but you will see berserkers in a Night Lords force or Thousand Sons in an Alpha Legion force.

 

The Legion rules weren't that restrictive, there were a bonus for sticking to one Legion, real bonuses.

That's not how I remember the Legion rules. Quite the Opposite. Night Lords and Iron Warriors had some neat traits (by losing only all cult units, so about 80% of the choices), but the cult Legions did not. Free champions, oh wow. You are only limited to 20% of the Codex choices.

 

But would you see a Khorne band of Berzerkers fighting along a Thousand Sons sorcerer and his Rubric Marines together outside a Black Legion/Red Corsairs army? You'd only see a Night Lords warband fighting for someone else if their getting paid or they can mess with innocent heads. The old rivalries and hatreds still exist and should be enforced.

 

The Legion Rules worked, forget the fact that Cults were dropped, that wasn't their style, Word Bearers praised the Chaos Gods and were rewarded with their minions. Night Lords used every scrape of cover to get close to their enemies, can you imagine any of the Cults doing that? The Berzerkers would charge before they got close, the Thousand Sons would be incapable of kneeling, Noise Marines would be incapable of being quite while Plague Marines...well Plague Marines would stink up the place. The Legion rules played on the specific strengths of the individual legions, any percieved losses are just signs of an unimaginative mind that can't see the bigger picture.

Iron Warriors were supposed to deliver a massive amount of firepower then mop up the survivors. The only Cult unit should be Berzerkers as they make perfect warriors to be the first into the breech. Real power is in the barrel of a gun, the hand gripping the axe, not for the Iron Warriors the fickle magicks of Tzeentch, the perversity of Slaanesh or the vileness of Nurgle

Night Lords are meant to get as close as possible then wipe the enemy out in combat. Any form of worship is a sign of weakness, material gain is all that matters, be it through taking it by force or being paid to do what they do best, strike terror into the heart of the enemy, no Cults can do anything like that.

Word Bearers give praise to the Gods by letting their minions slaughter and destroy the enemies of their Masters. To the Word Bearers their is no greater heresy then to exalt one Chaos God over the others and there is only one means of redemption, death. Hence the Word Bearers despise the Cults.

 

The list can go on, but simply put, the challenge was to make an army that could and did succeed without using the Cults. This belief that only Cult units can win games is the same belief that the 4.0 Chaos armies can only win with 2 Daemon Princes or 2 Sorcerers with Lash.

[Legatus]

The question was whether it would make sense from a fluff perspective to have "warband" style armies or whether all the Legions should stick to their own. And while the undivided Legions might not so willingly work for other Legion commanders, all the cult Legions are shattered, and the remaining individual squads or smaller formations could well work for any of the undivided Legions.

[Smurfalypse]

the idea that the traitor Legions keep strictly to themselves was introduced with the Index Astartes articles, but even then especially the cult units should still more often be found in different Legions forces than in strict cult force

thats not true , the legions always more or less hated each other since the time of RT . it was in the 2ed fluff too, only not in the rules . mainlly because the book was already the bigest dex they ever made [and still chambers had to cut all legion stuff they wanted to do] . one cant say much about the chaos JJ dex from fluff point of view , because it had close to 0 fluff[much like the dex we have right now] and had such gems like chaos sorc with mark of khorn etc . We are getting the same crap about the chaos happy family now too. there is absolutlly no way [save maybe for abadon being personally on the spot] a WE and EC force would fight at the same battlefield. Csm distrust each other too much for stuff like that to work and one when remember that for a khorn follower someone who doesnt worship khorn is the same as someone not worshiping the emperor for a loyalist , then the whole warband thing starts to make no sense . It also kills the whole idea of black legion . I mean if every chaos lord can lead zerkers and noise marines in one army , then whats so special about the BL gimick of having worshipers of all chaos gods in one legion?

 

 

HAHA "Such gems like chaos sorcerer with mark of khorne"....I literally fell out of my chair laughing about this one. Good stuff jeske, good stuff.

[Legatus]

My 3rd Edition Codex specifically states that Sorcerers and Sorcerer Lords cannot get the Mark of Khorne. Must be a reprint then.

[DuskRaider]

You must have 3.5... 3.0 stated you could have a Khorne Sorcerer :lol:

 

It's obvious you have no concept of fluff or variety, Legatus. And that's cool I suppose, but you seem to suffer from the same problem all the other 4.0 fanboys have: The need to attempt to force your ideas that 4.0 is better and that those of us who disagree are wrong and need to use our "imaginations" to make what was once available to us through ridiculous counts-as. That's fine and dandy if that's your idea of a fun army or whatever, but to those of us who find fluff more important and the need for a Codex with actual thought, it's an insult and a fallacy.

[Important]

I can agree with Legatus to a certain point actualy DuskRaider.

 

I like the 4.0 codex to the limit I have no Daemonic gifts and the legions are screwed over. Otherwise I use all of the units for fun. Sure I have never won with certain of them (like possessed). But I can get a close game draw as my best and I have faced ork nob biker list etc.

 

What I do miss is the legions mostly like stated above and so many others said. Get some daemonic gifts, legion rules against. And fix some units slightly.

 

There really is no reason for people to argue 3.5 vs 4.0 ......everyone have thier opinion and trying to force someone upon yours isn't all that good.