Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Brother Hadafix]

The question was whether it would make sense from a fluff perspective to have "warband" style armies or whether all the Legions should stick to their own. And while the undivided Legions might not so willingly work for other Legion commanders, all the cult Legions are shattered, and the remaining individual squads or smaller formations could well work for any of the undivided Legions.

 

On the contrary, they would probably look to further their cause by attracting others to the worship of god w, x, y or z. And they would look to lead not only marines, but regular humans and mutants also. There maybe a few Undivided, but near zero any other cult.

 

Thorpe should have taken a closer look at the previous incarnations of Chaos, and built upon them rather than shattering what worked and turning out something that is altogether bland.

 

Correct me if I am wrong (my 3.5 dex is somewhere under the sofa (a place where I suspect even the dedicated to nurgle would pause to go)) but didnt WE also get "Feel No Pain"? I know that EC got an item that gave them that, and think I remember WE also getting that.

 

After reading the article, it looks like Thorpe is willing to blame everyone else for the codex, but takes little responciblity for it himself, and he's the writer. It says something when a writer tries to distance themselves from the substance of what they have written.

[Castlerook]

"Count-as" was fine around the the beginning of 3rd Edition when new codexes were released and they detailed new units, many of which had no minis and people would have to wait for said minis, often for two to three years.

 

But that was in 1998, this is 2009 and we're in 5th Edition where every unit is available. Why should we be forced to lessen our experience of the hobby because a small minority considers it enough to rest on their laurels and decry us because we, the consumer and the player, want to improve something which is, essentially, broken. It is because of this small minority that some of the most inventive ideas that came from the studio have been removed and we have a number of sub-par, mis-powered army books floating about. Why? Because to this small minority, all that mattered was the winning. Winning at any cost and abusing these ideas to achieve it. Who is this minority? Powergamers, although I have another name for them that can't be said on a family forum. To say to those who like the fluff more then winning, "Just use count-as" is an insult and a complete misunderstanding about why we love this hobby. Rules and their mechanics will change and once powerful armies will become weakened and when that happens you see the real fans from the powergamers, the real fans care about everything, from the fluff to the balance of the rules. The powergamers will move onto the next army and just try to win by whatever means.

 

To those who will laugh at this and dismiss it out of hand, I will say simply this "If you don't have the courtesy to respect my opinion, I won't give a damn about yours"

[Legatus]

On the contrary, they would probably look to further their cause by attracting others to the worship of god w, x, y or z. And they would look to lead not only marines, but regular humans and mutants also. There maybe a few Undivided, but near zero any other cult.

 

Index Astartes Emperors Children:

Eventually, after countless atrocities, the Emperor's Children reached the Eye of Terror where they and their fellow traitors hid from the vengeance of the Imperium. According to the Inquisition's Hades Oracle, the Emperor's Children quickly exhausted their supply of slaves and playthings, and began to prey upon the only victims available: the slaves and servants of the other Traitor Legions. The resulting wars were terrible and bloody, but there could be only one eventual result, and finally the Legion of the Emperor's Children was shattered. (...)

Most became Noise Marines, twisted creatures addicted to fury and tempest, only satisfied by the roar of explosions and the screams of the dying. (...) Despite their insanity, they remain vicious, savage warriors, delighting in the destruction they cause in battle, willing to serve any master in return for fresh slaves upon which to practice their devotion to Slaanesh.

 

Index Astartes World Eaters:

After the Night of Madness on the daemon world of Skalathrax, when a champion amed Khârn turned on his fellow World Eaters, the Legion tore itself apart in a day long slaughter, becoming nothing more than roving bands of renegades, endlessly questing for battle and death. Such bands vary enormeously in size from a single Champion, small squads to company sized forces capable of untold destruction. The champion who lead these marauders will fight alongside almost any other Chaos Lord who is gathering his forces, asking for nothing more than the chance to spill blood inthe name of Khorne

 

The Deasth Guard and Thousand Sons articles do not specifically mention that they serve in other warbands, but their state after the heresy makes that just as likely.

 

Index Astartes Death Guard:

With Mortarion elevated to daemonhood, his hand upon the Legion became more remote and the Death Guard became broken up through space and time into smaller units.

 

Index Astartes Thousand Sons:

As a result, the Thousand Sons, a numerically small Legion to begin with, rarely took to the field en masse. Instead, they campaigned in smaller detachments under the command of sorcerers who often acted with much more authority independent of their Primarch than the officiers of other Legions. This command experience has stood them in good stead as independent leaders of warbands since the Heresy, to the Imperium's considerable and continuing misfortune.

 

So basically, all the cult units should be more often seen as parts of warbands, rather than as dedicated forces of that particular Legion.

 

Thorpe should have taken a closer look at the previous incarnations of Chaos, and built upon them rather than shattering what worked and turning out something that is altogether bland.

 

2nd Edition: Warbands

 

3rd Edition: Warbands

 

3.5 Edition: 9 distinct Legions

 

4th Edition: Warbands

 

It seems more like Gav has gone back to the roots, instead of continuing what the last Codex has brought. Since all the other recent Codices have been restructured in the same way that has probably not been his decision.

 

Also, the current Codex allows to build very adequate forces of the 5 Undivided Legions. It may be more difficult to create cult Legion forces, but as described above the cult units would usually be found as parts of Warbands, not neccessarily as dedicated Legion forces, so even in that respect the current Codex works out pretty well as far as fluff goes.

 

Correct me if I am wrong (my 3.5 dex is somewhere under the sofa (a place where I suspect even the dedicated to nurgle would pause to go)) but didnt WE also get "Feel No Pain"? I know that EC got an item that gave them that, and think I remember WE also getting that.

Feel no Pain was available in the Khorne Armoury, which means every Khorne character could get it, not just characters in a World Eaters army. A lot of people have also mistaken it for a veteran skill and given it to whole squads, when it was actually just an Item that was available to Characters.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, you go and tell a Word Bearers player her can "adequately" build a force, along with Night Lords and especially Alpha Legion. They'll probably laugh at you, if not worse. The point is this: Yeah, there are some people that like the new Codex, but they're A.) a minority, and B.) most likely new players. Not saying EVERYONE who likes the codex as opposed to something more background driven is new, but it seems like a vast majority are.

[Brother Hadafix]

I dont remember seeing either of those two articles in the 3.5, but its been a while since I looked though it. You forget that the C:CSM codices are and IAs are not the "only" sources of information for the Legions, or any warband, what about the Eye of Terror codex and its fore runners? Countless BL background (compared to some anyway) there is loads missing that an author of talent could have used, but Gav for some reason chose to ignore and stick "ridgedly" to the outline of his "brief".

 

I beleve the C:CSM still also starts that the Chaos gods are jealous and vindictive, hardly the "happy Families" the C:CSM codex ends up taking players down the path of.

 

Gav also states the C: Chaos Legions was in the pipeline back then (what the ;) :cuss :cuss :cuss happened) which also goes against the "warband" ideal.

[Castlerook]

So basically, all the cult units should be more often seen as parts of warbands, rather than as dedicated forces of that particular Legion.

 

Thorpe should have taken a closer look at the previous incarnations of Chaos, and built upon them rather than shattering what worked and turning out something that is altogether bland.

 

2nd Edition: Warbands

 

3rd Edition: Warbands

 

3.5 Edition: 9 distinct Legions

 

4th Edition: Warbands

 

It seems more like Gav has gone back to the roots, instead of continuing what the last Codex has brought. Since all the other recent Codices have been restructured in the same way that has probably not been his decision.

 

Also, the current Codex allows to build very adequate forces of the 5 Undivided Legions. It may be more difficult to create cult Legion forces, but as described above the cult units would usually be found as parts of Warbands, not neccessarily as dedicated Legion forces, so even in that respect the current Codex works out pretty well as far as fluff goes.

 

And out of the 4 editions of the Chaos codexes which one was by and far the most successful? The 3.5 edition. Why? Because it gave Chaos players something that had been lacking for a long time...... Unity. The Legion rules gave people a greater boost to make armies they liked, instead of having a mish-mash of different legions, they could go for a unified army, the army they wanted, the style of play they wanted. The Legions let them do this, while Warbands really were just a random grouping of units, nothing tying them together.

 

Your whole point about the Cults is moot, the Thousand Sons units still serve Magnus, searching the galaxy for sorcerous relics even as they serve their punishment for Ahriman's and the Rubric's actions. The Berzerkers of the World Eaters have no agenda bar killing, no warband really wants them nearby because the Berzerkers will kill anything in axe range. The Death Guards' only purpose is to spread disease around the galaxy. The Emperor's Children are just raiders and looking for Fulgrim's pleasure planet. They aren't part of a warband, they have their own agendas, a warlord's/champion's objectives will mean nothing to them, the warband is just a means to their ends. The likes of Ahriman or Typhus wouldn't care about the destruction of a backwater Imperial garrison unless there was a specific reason for them to be there, a relic or tome in Ahriman's case, or just a testbed for the new effects of the Destroyer plague in Typhus' case. Just because their in the same place at the same time doesn't mean they are part of the warband, in the example above, Ahriman would be leading his own warband, Typhus the same.

[Legatus]

Yeah, you go and tell a Word Bearers player her can "adequately" build a force

It's not so difficult, really. Simply stack up on daemons and maybe even include a greater daemon. If you are feeling cheeky you can even give your Lord a 4+ invulnerable save. Together with a power weapon you have your Apostle. You could also include one unit of particularly dedicated and fanatical Marines the Apostle had whipped into shape just before the battle, granting them inhumane strength and making them impervious to pain as well as fearless *coughpossessedcough*.

 

But those choices are not called "Apostle with dark crozius" and "fanatic Marines" in the Codex, oh noes. :P

 

Most opponents would probably also agree to play with multiple detachments if it is discussed before you agree to a game, so they could even use cult daemons.

 

along with Night Lords

Infiltrating Veterans, Raptors, presto. You don't even have to resort to cheeky renaming of things. But personally I occasionally give a squad of Raptors the Icon of Khorne to represent "veteran" Raptors.

 

and especially Alpha Legion.

Infiltrating Veterans, and then a bit of everything. The Alpha Legion likes to employ as many different means as possible when they attack, using infiltration, fast shock units, heavy support tanks. Daemons can represent operatives jumping out of their hideouts (i.e. being summoned).

 

The Codex offers possibilities for themed armies. What it does not have is list things that only one particular army can have, while all others cannot.

 

And out of the 4 editions of the Chaos codexes which one was by and far the most successful? The 3.5 edition. Why? Because it gave Chaos players something that had been lacking for a long time...... Unity. The Legion rules gave people a greater boost to make armies they liked, instead of having a mish-mash of different legions, they could go for a unified army, the army they wanted, the style of play they wanted

I don't know which Codex was most successful. But I just demonstrated how you could build three different themed armies "as you would want to". The Codex does not tell you how a Word Bearers army has to be constructed, but it allows you to construct a Word Bearers army.

 

Your whole point about the Cults is moot, the Thousand Sons units still serve Magnus, searching the galaxy for sorcerous relics even as they serve their punishment for Ahriman's and the Rubric's actions. The Berzerkers of the World Eaters have no agenda bar killing, no warband really wants them nearby because the Berzerkers will kill anything in axe range. The Death Guards' only purpose is to spread disease around the galaxy. The Emperor's Children are just raiders and looking for Fulgrim's pleasure planet. They aren't part of a warband, they have their own agendas, a warlord's/champion's objectives will mean nothing to them, the warband is just a means to their ends.

So... they do join warbands but it is not the employment of their dreams?

 

The likes of Ahriman or Typhus wouldn't care about the destruction of a backwater Imperial garrison unless there was a specific reason for them to be there, a relic or tome in Ahriman's case, or just a testbed for the new effects of the Destroyer plague in Typhus' case. Just because their in the same place at the same time doesn't mean they are part of the warband, in the example above, Ahriman would be leading his own warband, Typhus the same.

Ahriman and Typhus are examples of very famous and influential Champions of the Cult Legions who would be able to gather larger forces of said cults around them. That does not detract in any way from the fact that smaller factions of those cults will work for warbands that are willing to employ them.

[Brother Hadafix]

Though the as these "Cult Champions" would gather most of their Legion and others of the same cult, for a set purpose in mind, a Legion based army is just as fluffy an ideal as the war band. They would still take the opportunity, in preference, in working with there brethren.

 

You could make a NL or WB army like you have described in the 3.5 codex, the legion options just added far more choice, "you play your way & I can play mine" was more the 3.5 theme.

 

As for daemons in AL, thats really unfluffy, as in their fluff it states that they operate to far away for daemons to be summoned reliably, so dont really use them, and daemons dont have anything thats a "counts as" las gun for cultists.

[Castlerook]

Yeah, you go and tell a Word Bearers player her can "adequately" build a force

It's not so difficult, really. Simply stack up on daemons and maybe even include a greater daemon. If you are feeling cheeky you can even give your Lord a 4+ invulnerable save. Together with a power weapon you have your Apostle. You could also include one unit of particularly dedicated and fanatical Marines the Apostle had whipped into shape just before the battle, granting them inhumane strength and making them impervious to pain as well as fearless *coughpossessedcough*.

 

But those choices are not called "Apostle with dark crozius" and "fanatic Marines" in the Codex, oh noes. :D

 

Most opponents would probably also agree to play with multiple detachments if it is discussed before you agree to a game, so they could even use cult daemons.

 

Yeah ok, and while we're at it lets have a counts as Iron Warriors army where every unit has a heavy weapon. Oh wait, no, see thats not a true Iron Warriors army. Just picking units without any real thought doesn't make an themed army, its a rushed list with no thought to people who want proper Legion armies.

 

along with Night Lords

Infiltrating Veterans, Raptors, presto. You don't even have to resort to cheeky renaming of things. But personally I occasionally give a squad of Raptors the Icon of Khorne to represent "veteran" Raptors.

You realise that the Night Lords aren't infiltrators, they grab cover. Its the Alpha Legion who infiltrate. If your going to try and be sarcastic, at least do your homework.

 

and especially Alpha Legion.

Infiltrating Veterans, and then a bit of everything. The Alpha Legion likes to employ as many different means as possible when they attack, using infiltration, fast shock units, heavy support tanks. Daemons can represent operatives jumping out of their hideouts (i.e. being summoned).

So in your mind the only difference between the Night Lords and Alpha Legion is the inclusion of summoned daemons, ok, so the only difference between the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels is the name.

 

The Codex offers possibilities for themed armies. What it does not have is list things that only one particular army can have, while all others cannot.

This codex is a throwback to the 3.0 book, with nothing to offer a player in 5th Edition. Its like the old themed lists you use to find in White Dwarf, yeah they give you a general idea of what to go for, but lets face it, its words on a page and adds nothing.

 

I don't know which Codex was most successful. But I just demonstrated how you could build three different themed armies "as you would want to". The Codex does not tell you how a Word Bearers army has to be constructed, but it allows you to construct a Word Bearers army.

"As you would want to" doesn't really mean that much, you just have a Chaos lord with a power weapon for a Dark Apostle, any other unique units to the Word Bearers just end up being Chaos Space Marines in crimson armour.

 

So... they do join warbands but it is not the employment of their dreams?

Think any supervillains in any comic books who create a group of villains to destroy a hero. Beyond the hero's destruction what bonds do they have? Rivalries flare, hatreds grow, and personal agendas take precedence over all others. Chances are only one keeps true to the original idea, but when the time comes to go ahead, the group destroys itself. No one really joins a warband, its more a case of same time, same place, more of a meatshield to be used.

 

Ahriman and Typhus are examples of very famous and influential Champions of the Cult Legions who would be able to gather larger forces of said cults around them. That does not detract in any way from the fact that smaller factions of those cults will work for warbands that are willing to employ them.

Special Characters are the epitome of their respective factions, and as such its easy to extrapolate the mindset of other, lesser known leaders of their respective factions, Ahriman epitomises the thirst for knowledge and power that all Tzeentchian followers have, to free themselves from the puppet strings. Khârn embodies the bloodlust and frenzied mindset that has taken hold of the World Eaters, and by extension, all followers of Khorne. It doesn't matter if one Champion can gather a larger force then another, many have their own objective, or try to complete their own agenda while serving their master's wishes.

 

There are many things about the 4.0 Chaos codex that sickens me, the lack of any unity, the blandness of the list, and the bláse attitude that some gamers have when anyone tries to make a valid and well thoughtout opinion. But thankfully, those gamers are in the minority, and don't speak for everyone who wants a change for the better to happen.

[the jeske]

I think your getting the shatered patern wrong legatus . aside for the WE which techniclly should be extinct by now , cult legions did break up but in to forces much larger then the loyalist chapter we have now . Even the smallest like the ahriman cult [before the 13th crusade , when they rejoined the main sect] were larger then companies . EC splinter warbands were able to take whole planet [defended] systems on their own. The NL , WB never broke up . The AL were divided in to different cells , but thats how AL always operated without the chain of command other sm had. The BL were battered after the legion war , but in the end they have beaten the EC and are the strongest legion right now. IW have their wars [just like all other chaos marines , they wage wars against each other all the time] , but still are the legions with most geneseed and the biggest abilty to produce csm or make demon packts etc . the only legions that actually has small warbands in the fluff [smaller then company size] are the WE , but it was never told how they survive , how they recruit[if they do] and most of all how to they get transport as they no longer have a fleet.

 

I don't know which Codex was most successful. But I just demonstrated how you could build three different themed armies "as you would want to".

yes of course because an army with 2 identical hqs , 4 identical troops [al/nl/wb are undivided] ,same oblits , but raptors [for NL and they dont work] chosen [for AL and they dont work again] or demons [for WB guess what another weak choice] , is something every undivided player wanted . totally . not to mention that with troops being the focus[those identical csm units] all 3 of those unique armies in 3.5 , have identical game play. Or what happens if a WB picks up some vets or a NL some demons. How is his army different from a AL or WB list ?

Most opponents would probably also agree to play with multiple detachments if it is discussed before you agree to a game, so they could even use cult daemons.

well sadlly its not the case in all countries . and if I have to get permission to play something why not ask to use the old legion rules? whats the sense in having/buying the new dex?

I don't know which Codex was most successful.

check the sales of both dexs in first year or two . check how many chaos armies were played . also notice that on this chaos forum the slanesh and tzeench part of the forum are more or less dead.

[Legatus]

Yeah ok, and while we're at it lets have a counts as Iron Warriors army where every unit has a heavy weapon. Oh wait, no, see thats not a true Iron Warriors army. Just picking units without any real thought doesn't make an themed army, its a rushed list with no thought to people who want proper Legion armies.

As I said, the Codex does not tell you how you have to construct a WB/IW/NL/AL army, but it allows you to construct a WB/IW/NL/AL army. It can be a proper Word Bearers army even if the army list you chose it from is not titeled "Word bearers army list".

 

You realise that the Night Lords aren't infiltrators, they grab cover. Its the Alpha Legion who infiltrate. If your going to try and be sarcastic, at least do your homework.

 

The Night Lords are masters of Stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently.

- Index Astartes Night Lords

 

Huron struck a deal with several warriors of the Night Lords Legion, infamous for their ambushes and sneak attack tactics. These Night Lords formed the Vanguard. Having been dropped onto the world under cover of a cosmic storm, they infiltrated the defences of Vilamus via poorly defended ventilation shafts and maintenance tunnels.

- BRB, page 146

 

Whoops.

 

So in your mind the only difference between the Night Lords and Alpha Legion is the inclusion of summoned daemons, ok, so the only difference between the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels is the name.

The difference is that the Night Lords use more fast/raid units, while the Alpha Legion uses as much varrying choices as possible (perhaps with an MSU approach).

 

This codex is a throwback to the 3.0 book, with nothing to offer a player in 5th Edition. Its like the old themed lists you use to find in White Dwarf, yeah they give you a general idea of what to go for, but lets face it, its words on a page and adds nothing.

I like themed armies. Themed armies are fluffy and have a certain character. In the end, Word Bearers and Night Lords are both formations of Chaos Space Marines. But they favour different fighting styles.

 

"As you would want to" doesn't really mean that much, you just have a Chaos lord with a power weapon for a Dark Apostle

A Chaos Lord with a power weapon and a 4+ invulnerable save. That's what a Dark Apostle was in 3.5, so what's the issue?

 

any other unique units to the Word Bearers just end up being Chaos Space Marines in crimson armour.

That perfectly sums up Word Bearer Chaos Space Marines. They did not have any special units in 3.5 either. And why should they have? They are Chaos Space Marines.

 

Think any supervillains in any comic books who create a group of villains to destroy a hero. Beyond the hero's destruction what bonds do they have? Rivalries flare, hatreds grow, and personal agendas take precedence over all others. Chances are only one keeps true to the original idea, but when the time comes to go ahead, the group destroys itself. No one really joins a warband, its more a case of same time, same place, more of a meatshield to be used.

So... they do work together and fight in the same battle? And there may or may not be anymosity outside of this shared engagement which has absolutely no bearing on the game that is played?

 

There are many things about the 4.0 Chaos codex that sickens me, the lack of any unity, the blandness of the list, and the bláse attitude that some gamers have when anyone tries to make a valid and well thoughtout opinion.

Some gamers can see beyond one single Codex and notice that all the recent armies have received the same treatment. Thus some gamers see no reason why one faction in particular should receive special treatment when in their case it works out just fine as it does with any of the other factions.

 

---

 

I think your getting the shatered patern wrong legatus . aside for the WE which techniclly should be extinct by now , cult legions did break up but in to forces much larger then the loyalist chapter we have now .

I am refering specifically to the 4 cult Legions, which are all described as having been divided into or operate as smaller formations in some way or another. Specifically the Emperor's Children Noise Marines are described to work for whoever promises to provide them with slaves.

 

The 5 Undivided Legions are perhaps still operating with more cohesion. And as I said, the Codex does aloow to build proper Undivided armies. Those armies can then be supported by a few cult units.

 

yes of course because an army with 2 identical hqs , 4 identical troops [al/nl/wb are undivided] ,same oblits , but raptors [for NL and they dont work] chosen [for AL and they dont work again] or demons [for WB guess what another weak choice] , is something every undivided player wanted . totally . not to mention that with troops being the focus[those identical csm units] all 3 of those unique armies in 3.5 , have identical game play. Or what happens if a WB picks up some vets or a NL some demons. How is his army different from a AL or WB list ?

I do think a CSM army that concentrates on Fast Attack and Elites will be different with one that uses MSU from as many different choices as possible, and also different from a unit that relies on basic organisation but uses a few daemon units.

 

well sadlly its not the case in all countries . and if I have to get permission to play something why not ask to use the old legion rules? whats the sense in having/buying the new dex?

Using multiple detachments is a suggested procedure in the 5th Edition BRB on page 87 for games beyond 2500 points, so it is not something far fetched and out of the ordinary. I don't think using older edition Codices is suggested.

[Castlerook]

You say you like themed Armies Legatus, but tell me, what are you? Someone interested in fluff or just another powergamer? Or perhaps even a "concerned" troll? You make contradictionary posts, saying the codex is fluffy and themed lists can be made, and yet the example lists you posted really show nothing of the character of the specific legion and are somewhat broken.

 

Night Lords aren't Stealth fighters alone, they are masters of terror tactics, there is a difference between sneaking in close to strike at a target and remaining behind enemy lines to destroy the enemy. Night Lords bombard a defenseless world with nuclear devices, creating a nuclear winter. They slaughter any sort of resistance and transmit the screams of the victims over planetary communications. They gun down defenseless victims as they run from the Night Lords, many in fact commit suicide rather then face the Night Lords. So what if several Night Lords were hired by Horun to infiltrate the Marines Errant chapter hold, any specially trained unit can infiltrate a large urban structure, they have 10000 years to develop these skills, and isn't really indicitive of the Night Lords ability. You seem quite happy to quote from the IA articles so read up on Grendal's World in the Night Lords article.

 

Alpha Legion are the real stealthers, the covert Legion, they'd have to be because their the only Traitor Legion not centred around the Eye of Terror and the only one still largely active in the wider Imperium. Why risk showing yourself when in enemy territory when you can just incite cultists to strike in your stead? I mean look at the Alpha Legion modus operandi, striking from several directions, indicates a greater use of stealth then the Night Lords, how can you strike from the unexpected quarter if your visible to the enemy? The Alpha Legion makes extensive plans of attack, attacking critical points, often in the middle of enemy held territory, which indicates a great knowledge of stealth tactics.

 

Night Lords might use stealth, but only in the same way a criminal uses stealth to break into a building. The Alpha Legion uses stealth in the manner a special forces squad or an assassin will. The key difference, Night Lords are murderers, serial killers, the underworld scum of dead Nostramo, the Alpha Legion are trained soldiers, trained saboteurs and trained assassins.

[Hashulaman]

I think it would be fun, mainly because if they did, and they resembled the 3rd ed (and it probably won't) I might do iron warriors just to use Basilisks. I have always had a thing for firepower.

[refuse]

On the contrary, they would probably look to further their cause by attracting others to the worship of god w, x, y or z. And they would look to lead not only marines, but regular humans and mutants also. There maybe a few Undivided, but near zero any other cult.

 

Index Astartes Emperors Children:

Eventually, after countless atrocities, the Emperor's Children reached the Eye of Terror where they and their fellow traitors hid from the vengeance of the Imperium. According to the Inquisition's Hades Oracle, the Emperor's Children quickly exhausted their supply of slaves and playthings, and began to prey upon the only victims available: the slaves and servants of the other Traitor Legions. The resulting wars were terrible and bloody, but there could be only one eventual result, and finally the Legion of the Emperor's Children was shattered. (...)

Most became Noise Marines, twisted creatures addicted to fury and tempest, only satisfied by the roar of explosions and the screams of the dying. (...) Despite their insanity, they remain vicious, savage warriors, delighting in the destruction they cause in battle, willing to serve any master in return for fresh slaves upon which to practice their devotion to Slaanesh.

A total change from all previous fluff.

Heck starting there, the Noise Marines (per WD 144) went from a sub-cult (pure slaanesh group, not always of EC) to a group of EC, to the EC all falling to noise marine status.

 

Not saying some EC may not work in armies. But more on that later:

Thorpe should have taken a closer look at the previous incarnations of Chaos, and built upon them rather than shattering what worked and turning out something that is altogether bland.

 

2nd Edition: Warbands

 

3rd Edition: Warbands

 

3.5 Edition: 9 distinct Legions

 

4th Edition: Warbands

 

It seems more like Gav has gone back to the roots, instead of continuing what the last Codex has brought. Since all the other recent Codices have been restructured in the same way that has probably not been his decision.

Hold on.

 

RT: Legions

2nd: War bands

3.0: War band

3.0+IA: 9 Legions

3.5: 9 Legions

4th: War bands

 

Lets see, 3 legion, 3 war band. So while correct that 3 of the last 5 codecies have been that way, there were rules for legions using the codex, allowable in tournaments in 1/2 the legal armies.

 

Also, the current Codex allows to build very adequate forces of the 5 Undivided Legions. It may be more difficult to create cult Legion forces, but as described above the cult units would usually be found as parts of Warbands, not neccessarily as dedicated Legion forces, so even in that respect the current Codex works out pretty well as far as fluff goes.

Would usually be found? Definition?

If you assume your perception is correct. Then again, we could argue that CSM would more likely be with a LatD list, more then warbands.

 

Actually, LatD is more likely (according to most fluff) followed by legion. If you go through all the BL books, and most of the chaos fluff up to 4th edition, very seldom (I can think of 1) is there fluff mentioning warband type armies.

 

Now if you said "cult", i.e. Slaanesh forces, then yeah. But legions, as in Angels of Darkness, or the Night Lrods, Storm of Iron and other major books. . .

[refuse]

Not sure what codex he is even talking about:

He probably means that the Legion rules in 3.5 were basically variations of the rules that had previously been given in the WD Index Astartes series. The 3.5 daemon rules had been available through a WD prior to the 3.5 Codex as well.

Not what he said.

They were in the IA, and totally re-written in the new codex.

The IA allowed you to take units X as troops and elites and other variations.

The codex changed things.

 

Some of the 3.5 deamone rules were, and others were removed (fiends) and others added (daemonetes on steeds).

 

If he was using one as an example, he should use one of them, he changes the codex he is talking about in mid topic to make his point, ignoring the fact that they are 2 different codexes with 2 sets of rules. Later IA articles didn't have rules for legions (ones printed afte rthe 3.5 chaos codex was printed), and they were re-printed in 2 books (as he menstions) after 3.5 was printed, again invalidating or showing that he was mixing.

 

Yes, IA EC had rules for 3.0 C:Chaos and was printed in IA book 1 after 3.5 was printed. Different rule sets, and can't be combined to make a point.

 

Follow those points with the incorrect basis for Daemons and IG/SOB with Marines and we realize he is constructing his argument from his memories, not the rules of the game.

[DuskRaider]

Just an FYI, folks... Gav Thorpe posted a response on his blog to everything people have posted on his site.

 

Gav's Response

[Smurfalypse]

Yeah, you go and tell a Word Bearers player her can "adequately" build a force

It's not so difficult, really. Simply stack up on daemons and maybe even include a greater daemon. If you are feeling cheeky you can even give your Lord a 4+ invulnerable save. Together with a power weapon you have your Apostle. You could also include one unit of particularly dedicated and fanatical Marines the Apostle had whipped into shape just before the battle, granting them inhumane strength and making them impervious to pain as well as fearless *coughpossessedcough*.

 

Ive tried to stay out of this as its just turned into a codex bashing event, yet again. I am a fanatical Word Bearer player, I build my lists as such, I play them as such. I even go to tournys with my garbage lists and attempt to wipe the floor with everyone. I went to the last Ard Boys with 40 possessed, 40 lesser daemons, a greater daemon, and some other filler. You are very right from a certain angle, you are however very wrong from another.

 

One of my most common lists is a lord w/daemon weapon, unit of 10 possessed, units of lesser daemons, CSMs, and a greater daemon. This is a very fluffy and has a great WB feel to it. I enjoy playing this list very much and point of fact I win 90% of my games fairly easilly, so my beef isnt with the str of the list or lack of power of certain units. My beef is the fact that this is what im stuck with and is supposed to keep my interested for 6 years until the next edition and I get a new codex. Oh sure I can change the exact numbers of it and change a few guys here, for a few guys there, but the fact that i really dont have a whole lot else that goes with this type of list is very poor.

 

I do run other random lists that ive come up with. 3 dreads, 2 defilers, termicide chaos lord solo with a melta gun....This isnt a very WB feeling list. The real issue is the codex is so bland and boring that ive had to reduce myself to running lists that are really just quirky to try and keep myself entertained.

 

Saying this style opened up options is just rediculas to me. Im not opposed to lesser daemons, greater daemon, 1 viable troop choice that i MUST take every game. I really can handle all that. My issues are with the ability to keep me focused on an interesting codex for years between. Word Bearers have a single picture in the entire place, even in the section where it lists all the legions and splinter factions the Word Bearers are not listed there. A single model holding an icon with a sentence beneith it saying "a word bearer with an icon." is all i have to hang my hat on. No fluff, no stories, no personal wargear, no personal rules, no personal restrictions (which are more fun than benifits because it shows your passion), next to no models painted up looking hot. Im just saying this from the WB point of view as its the only point of view i have, its all ive ever run for 15 years. I got started playing this when i was stationed in korea while i was in the army. Ive actually considered throwing together another army for the first time EVER.

 

Before (and not just the last codex but all of the previous CSM codexs) i could run a multitude of different daemons, lots of options for the base CSM, a plethora of HQ options and choices, elite options that were fun and could be used different ways each game you play, possessed walk up the board every game, chosen are very restrictive in how you use them, cleaver options are excessively overprice, dreadnoughts that have possibly the fewest options of anything in the codex. Literally there is just no fun in this codex and this is a game, if you dont have fun dont play. I enjoy playing with my friends and thats probably the only reason ive kept playing this same dex.

 

Ive rambled enough, but im very fanatical about my WB and what they have been reduced too. In truth he knows he wrote a bad codex as no codex has ever been attacked quite like this one. Im not going to call names as in the end, it is just a game. A game where in one release i have 500.00 of daemon models that are unusable WITHIN the scope of the rules provided to me. Had 30 of each daemon allowed in the previous codex, they all sit in a box and dont get pulled out as its a disgrace to use them as something generic or counts as.

[Castlerook]

Thank you Smurfalypse. Thats pretty much my problem with the codex, theres nothing to really keep a Chaos player hooked, especially those who use the "lesser" legions, lesser because theres nothing for them in the book, no special characters, no unique pieces of fluff, its all generalised, homogenised, boring information. I like the Night Lords, even before the IA article, but with this codex theres nothing in it to keep me, as a player, interested in the Night Lords.

 

The Cult Legions barely get anything unique, in fact the only options for a fluffy cult army is Lord/Sorcerer, one of the respective Special characters and spam the Cult units. Even then theres no real incentive to do this, a Champion still costs, even if their unit is made up to the Sacred Number of the God, theres nothing to seperate a Berzerker and a Plague Marine, in the end, the two units are just Chaos Space Marines with a bolter/pistol and a close combat weapons, the blight grenades are just defensive grenades by another name.

 

Like I've said theres no incentive to make fluff filled armies, and nothing to keep a Chaos player interested, no new units or vehicles, nothing innovative. The Chaos codex has become the porridge of the hobby, bland, tasteless and a mess.

[Unguis Raptus]

You realise that the Night Lords aren't infiltrators, they grab cover. Its the Alpha Legion who infiltrate. If your going to try and be sarcastic, at least do your homework.

 

The Night Lords are masters of Stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently.

- Index Astartes Night Lords

 

Huron struck a deal with several warriors of the Night Lords Legion, infamous for their ambushes and sneak attack tactics. These Night Lords formed the Vanguard. Having been dropped onto the world under cover of a cosmic storm, they infiltrated the defences of Vilamus via poorly defended ventilation shafts and maintenance tunnels.

- BRB, page 146

 

They use both stealth and terror tactics in equal measure because the two go hand in hand.

 

Show them what you can do. Steal their hope, like a shadow steals the light. Then show them what you are. The tool never changes, my sons. The weapon is always the same. Fear. Fear is the weapon.

 

Brought up when Sahaal attacks two people, kills the first before either of them know he's there, the stealth, 'show them what you can do. Steal their hope, like a shadow steals the light'. Then he reveals himself to the other, the terror, 'then show them what you are. The tool never changes, my sons. The weapon is always the same. Fear. Fear is the weapon'.

 

Night Lords players need to stop this 'they use one not the other' thing... as I said they use both equally the two go hand in hand. Another example :-

 

Kill a thousand men, and let no man bear witness. What have you achieved? Who will ever know? Who will ever fear you? Who will ever respect or obey you? But kill a single man, and let the world see. Hang him high. Cut him deep. Bleed him dry. And then… Disappear. Now. Who will ever know? Everyone. Who will ever fear you? Why, everyone! Who will ever respect you, who will ever obey you? Everyone!”

 

Emphasis on

And then… Disappear

[Legatus]

You say you like themed Armies Legatus, but tell me, what are you? Someone interested in fluff or just another powergamer?

Well, my Night Lords list usually consists of CSM squads, Raptors, Havocs and Daemons, led by a Sorcerer or sometimes a Lord. I have experimented with Obliterators instead of Havocs, they are easier to fit into lists than decently equipped Havoc Squads. I am sure the jeske can tell you that such an army cannot possibly work. :)

 

Night Lords aren't Stealth fighters alone, they are masters of terror tactics

The Night Lords terror tactics doctrine is an awesome part of their fluff, and when their Index Astartes had been published I was especially thrilled by the story about grendels world. However, a lot of what the Night Lords do does not neccessarily has to have any impact on a played game of 40K. What they do happens prior to the game, sets it up. And it would be cool if that would actually have an effect on the game played. But on the other hand, perhaps that is just the reason why the battle is played the way it is then be played.

The Night Lords use terror tactics to disorient and frighten their target group, which will lead to desertions and failing communication and coordination of defending forces. The Night Lords then attack the disorderly and unorganised and demoralised forces. Maybe that does not have to mean that the army they are fighting now has to have a morale penalty. Maybe that simply means that it is the reason why they are only fighting against an isolated 100+ Imperials (an average game of 40K) with their 50 Night Lords strike force, and not against a regiment of 3000 at once.

Also, While the Night Lords doctrine would work very well against Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar and Tau, it would not work at all against Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos Marines, Loyalist Marines, Dark Eldar and probably not too well against orks either. So why should all of those armies suffer under a Night Lords special rule?

I have allways thought that it would be awesome if there were elaborate campaign rules, where some of the factions special rules, especially those of the Nihgt Lords, could actually have a decent effect. The Night Lords would first try to capture all communication centres, and when they have succeeded in doing so, the army forces would get certain penalties, perhaps in movement or recoursed, or depending on the specific campaign rules.

 

Alpha Legion are the real stealthers, the covert Legion

When the Alpha Legion background mentions "infiltration" it is usually describing how the Alpha Legion plants operatives and spies inside opposing factions, which would not translate to "infiltration" in game terms. The Alpha Legion undermines enemy forces from within.

 

I mean look at the Alpha Legion modus operandi, striking from several directions, indicates a greater use of stealth then the Night Lords, how can you strike from the unexpected quarter if your visible to the enemy?

The short summary of the Alpha Legion doctrine given in the 3.5 Codex is a bit misleading, as "striking from different directions" does not refer to ambushing squad popping up left, right, front and back, but rather utilizing several different means of attack. I.e. they will hit with artillery strikes, assault unit, supporting suppression fire, sabotage detonations going off, traitors unmasking themselves and attacking their own, summoning daemons, heavy assault vehicles and dreadnoughts, Terminators teleporting in, all at the same time, not leaving the enemy the chance to properly reacht to an attack. This corresponds to the "hydra" theme of the Alpha Legions, as even if the enemy manages to repell one of the attack patterns (hacking off one had), there are several others going on at the same time.

 

---

 

Lets see, 3 legion, 3 war band. So while correct that 3 of the last 5 codecies have been that way, there were rules for legions using the codex, allowable in tournaments in 1/2 the legal armies.

There have been only 4 Chaos Codices so far, unless you want to consider the Realms of Chaos source books Codices. I do not have access to mine currently, IIRC the Legions were treated similar to the other Chapters, a source book could have army lists for several different armies, often that were Space Marine Chapters (I know of the White Scars army list), and the Realms of Chaos books contained rules for the Chaos Legions in a similar fashion.

 

Would usually be found? Definition?

If you assume your perception is correct. Then again, we could argue that CSM would more likely be with a LatD list, more then warbands.

Going by fluff, the most common enemies of Space Marines/Imperials would be Orks and rebelling PDF or heretic PDF. It is quite understandable why Chaos Marines are probably more popular than traitor Guard though.

 

Actually, LatD is more likely (according to most fluff) followed by legion. If you go through all the BL books, and most of the chaos fluff up to 4th edition, very seldom (I can think of 1) is there fluff mentioning warband type armies.

I am not sure how often the exact force composition of a Chaos force is described in the fluff. 3rd Edition Codex presented Chaos forces as a mix of a varied number of exotic units in it's introduction, letting the player chose any kind of units he liked. Even the 4th Edition Codex introduction (page 2) it states that the Codex can be used to either ply just one of the Legions or "an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord." My 2nd Edition Codex is in a Box in a garrage right now, but IIRC Chaos armies were presented as mixed in there as well. Didn't the Cover show Abaddon with World Eater Berserkers and Word bearer Terminators (might have been World Eaters as well)?

 

---

 

One of my most common lists is a lord w/daemon weapon, unit of 10 possessed, units of lesser daemons, CSMs, and a greater daemon. This is a very fluffy and has a great WB feel to it. I enjoy playing this list very much and point of fact I win 90% of my games fairly easilly, so my beef isnt with the str of the list or lack of power of certain units. My beef is the fact that this is what im stuck with and is supposed to keep my interested for 6 years until the next edition and I get a new codex. Oh sure I can change the exact numbers of it and change a few guys here, for a few guys there, but the fact that i really dont have a whole lot else that goes with this type of list is very poor.

That is kind of unfair compared to loyalists, who have had pretty much an identical army list during 3rd and 4th Edition as Chaos has now. Where loyalists have Scouts, Chaos has lesser daemons.

 

HQ: Captain = Lord, Librarian = Sorcerer, Chaplain =... Daemon Prince

 

Elite: Veterans = Chosen, Terminators = Terminators, Dreadnoughts = Dreadnoughts

 

Troops: Tactical Squads = CSM Squads, Scouts = Daemons

 

Fast Attack: Assault Squads = Raptors, Bikes = Bikes

 

Heavy Support: Devastators = Havocs, Predators = Predators, Land Raidersd = Land Raiders

 

Loyalists also had Whirlwinds and Land Speeders, while Chaos Marines have Possessed, Defilers, and most important, Cult Units. Do you pitty Ultramarine players that had to cope with such a bland list for all those years?

 

Before (and not just the last codex but all of the previous CSM codexs) i could run a multitude of different daemons, lots of options for the base CSM, a plethora of HQ options and choices, elite options that were fun and could be used different ways each game you play, possessed walk up the board every game, chosen are very restrictive in how you use them, cleaver options are excessively overprice, dreadnoughts that have possibly the fewest options of anything in the codex. Literally there is just no fun in this codex and this is a game, if you dont have fun dont play. I enjoy playing with my friends and thats probably the only reason ive kept playing this same dex.

I can definitely understand that you miss the ultra customizeable Chosen of the 3.5 Codex. The other complains seem to be summarised into "daemons got outsourced" and "no more armoury and only a few options per unit instead". The latter is not really anything that is particularly a matter of Chaos, as that is how every recent Codex has been done. Whenever a Chaos Player is complaining about the lack of options and diversity he should be refered right to the next Dark Angels player and see how bad off he really is. Though, with the current Codex Space Marines GW has started to include more options for Characters again, which of course raises the spite of those who got their Codex earlier.

[grimz]

I've tried to read most of this thread, personally I don't mind the current codex however I never used the 3.5 codex. I'm just a new player

 

But wouldn't it have been easy to add something like this:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ren_Warband.pdf

 

In the codex for the legions??

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Just an FYI, folks... Gav Thorpe posted a response on his blog to everything people have posted on his site.

 

Gav's Response

 

I was glad to see the original post. But the response just makes me /palmface. He pretty much just repeats stuff he said without addressing the counters to it and keeps claiming that this codex gives tons of options.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, it just seems more attempted justification for a half-hearted attempt at a codex (one which I must remind everyone they knew we'd be stuck with for years). Shows you what GW thinks of Chaos players, eh? :P

[Castlerook]

I stopped reading it around the Gods issue.

 

I sometimes wonder if developers live in their own little world, where everything works and there are no problems with their rules, its just a wave of their hand and <insert a magical sound effect here> the rules magically appear with no testing needed.

 

Funny thing is, we live in the real world and nothing just magically works.

 

Heres one little line taken from Gav's response

The odd one in the mix are the Thousand Sons, who are not just ’super marked’ Marines but something entirely unique to that Legion thanks to Rubric and his hi-jinks. So, there’s an argument that there should also be some form of ’super-marked’ magic Marine for Tzeentch, in addition to Rubric Marines, like anti-Grey Knights or something.

I'm sorry, but before 4.0 the Thousand Sons were the army I really hated going up against, 10pts a model in a Chaos Marine unit and you had a Fearless unit, able to move and fire at full range thanks to Slow & Purposeful and had the Daemonic Essence gift giving each unit member an extra wound. And then there were the Characters, the mark making the Lord/Lieutenant a Sorcerer for free and automatically allowing them to pass every Psychic test, and speaking about psychic powers, even the Minor Tzeentch powers could tip the game in favour of the Chaos player. Granted most weapons were limited to bolters, but thats why you had tanks! You had an implacable army that could devastate an army at range while the enemy had to run into the gunfire to try and beat them.

If the Thousand Sons elements are underpowered in 4.0 its because of the Developers themselves, who decided to give an extremely minor benefit when they were creating the new marks.

 

Also, apparently it wasn't Ahriman and his Cabal that caused the majority of the Thousand Sons to be sealed in their armour, it was Rubric, and theres me thinking it was the Rubric of Ahriman.

 

Lets take another trip into the mental swamp Mr. Thorpe's response has created;

For the sake of argument, lets say it take about 8 pages per Legion to do this justice – origins of the Legion and how they’re organised, extra or extended Forces pages to describe their troop types, additional army list entries and colour pages. That’s another 72 pages, bringing our book up to 264 pages.

Well, I have the (Un)Holy relic, the 3.5 codex right next to me so lets just look at it. The Codex was released at the perfect time, the Index Astartes articles had just gotten to the Alpha Legion and the IA compilations were released, which could provide more information and source material then a codex could. I was lucky to get my hands on the ones containing the Dark Angels and Night Lords, but thats besides the point.

Looking at 3.5 theres a page for the Undivided Legions which gives a brief background on the Legion then goes onto how to make each Legion army unique, so thats 5 pages (Granted the Black Legion page was just background and rules for Abaddon, but then again, the codex was more Codex: Black Legion then any other legion), moving onto the Cult Legions and we have 4 sections, detailing what each Chaos represents, then gives rules about their marks, unique wargear and rules and how to make an army of their followers, not to mention each section has a special character, all in 17 pages!!! (Tzeentch had to be awkward and have 5 pages instead of 4 :lol:)

So thats 22 pages of fluff and rules for the 9 Legions, we go onto the photo section and there are 4 pages which not only add a bit more info about the Legions but also lists the best colours for painting these legions, and theres even a piece on how to paint the Black Legion. Oooooooo and lookie, theres even a page about Renegades! With suggestions about how to paint them too!

Well, totalling up the number of pages we have just over 31 pages which detail the Legions, their own rules, equipment and tactics with a bit about Renegades. Quite a lot of information considering the 3.5 Codex was 80 pages in length. Not to mention the Legions were supplemented by the IA compilations.

 

Granted the Undivided Legions got only one page for their background and rules, but there are plenty of sources, many of them quite easy to get a hold of, to fill in the gaps.

 

But that last quote really does make me wonder if the Games Developers of the last couple of years are still in touch with reality.

[Askari]

Well, there's no point in continuing to argue with him since he isn't on the design team anymore. I have to say i like the new direction taken by GW with their rules for the latest codecies. Gav is an excellent writer of SF but isn't that great at writing rules for a widely marketed game. He could probably write rules for his own gaming group but not for a group as large as the 40k community.Nothing to be ashamed of, as anyone that's tried to make a homegrown codex will know.