Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[chillin]

Ya know I would rather he just say that he didn't put the time and effort into it that it he should have. Or pass the buck and say that GW didn't give him the time the needed to do a good , thourgh job. But him sticking to this "1/10 of the options = more freedom" is just insulting. Anyone that's not stupid knows that less options = less freedom. Other then csm's having bp/ccw & bolter & coming w/ krak & frags, (and broken ass lash) there is NORHING in 4.0 that you couldn't do with 3.5 but dozens and dozens of things that you could do in 3.5 that you could can not do with 4.0. This dex is SOOO much more restrictive then 3.5, to say it is less restrictve, shows a REAL lack of understanding of the definations of the words: options, choices, restrictive, & freedom.

[Lord Doyok]

From stats and pointcosts viewpoint.. i like the 4.0 dex better. But the lack of fluff and Legion Specific Rules makes it a very boring codex. I win more now than i do with the 3.5 dex. But i still prefer 3.5 dex better than 4.0.. by a large margin.

 

What 4.0 dex lacks.. is soul.

[chillin]

I win more now then I did w/ 3.5 also but there are other factors: 1- I'm more experienced, have more games under my belt,

2- new, less experienced gaming "group", & haven't done a tourny in years, 3- discovered B&C which made me a much better player :P .

 

But I played 3.5 for years and scores of games and never got bored. Was bored with this dex after 8-10 games.

Tell the truth, I'd rather win less and have a better, fluffyer, dex with more options, choices, depth, and soul.

But like I said, taking all the other options into account, I would probably win more with 3.5 if I were to use it now, knowing all the stuff I now know. OMG just that undivided banner alone with the understanding i now have of tactics and timing :wub:

[DuskRaider]

I'm thinking of just busting out the 3.5 Edition Codex and bringing that to gaming nights. If only I could find it...

[grimz]

Hah I'm so annoyed I didn't play Chaos when 3.5 was out and I can't find a copy of it anywhere.. so I don't even know what I'm missing out on ^_^

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm thinking of just busting out the 3.5 Edition Codex and bringing that to gaming nights. If only I could find it...

 

Yeah. I'm tempted to make the argument that the 3.5 IS the most current codex if you are a legion player, and so is what should be official unless you are running a renegades army.

[Castlerook]

I'm thinking of just busting out the 3.5 Edition Codex and bringing that to gaming nights. If only I could find it...

 

Yeah. I'm tempted to make the argument that the 3.5 IS the most current codex if you are a legion player, and so is what should be official unless you are running a renegades army.

 

Well seeing how I never go to tournaments, I'm definitely using the 3.5 codex for friendly games. Let the Imperium Fear the Night again! ^_^

 

All in favour of 3.5 being the Legion codex, say aye (however unoffical it'll be).

[Smurfalypse]

One of my most common lists is a lord w/daemon weapon, unit of 10 possessed, units of lesser daemons, CSMs, and a greater daemon. This is a very fluffy and has a great WB feel to it. I enjoy playing this list very much and point of fact I win 90% of my games fairly easilly, so my beef isnt with the str of the list or lack of power of certain units. My beef is the fact that this is what im stuck with and is supposed to keep my interested for 6 years until the next edition and I get a new codex. Oh sure I can change the exact numbers of it and change a few guys here, for a few guys there, but the fact that i really dont have a whole lot else that goes with this type of list is very poor.

 

That is kind of unfair compared to loyalists, who have had pretty much an identical army list during 3rd and 4th Edition as Chaos has now. Where loyalists have Scouts, Chaos has lesser daemons.

 

HQ: Captain = Lord, Librarian = Sorcerer, Chaplain =... Daemon Prince

 

Elite: Veterans = Chosen, Terminators = Terminators, Dreadnoughts = Dreadnoughts

 

Troops: Tactical Squads = CSM Squads, Scouts = Daemons

 

Fast Attack: Assault Squads = Raptors, Bikes = Bikes

 

Heavy Support: Devastators = Havocs, Predators = Predators, Land Raidersd = Land Raiders

 

Loyalists also had Whirlwinds and Land Speeders, while Chaos Marines have Possessed, Defilers, and most important, Cult Units. Do you pitty Ultramarine players that had to cope with such a bland list for all those years?

 

Before (and not just the last codex but all of the previous CSM codexs) i could run a multitude of different daemons, lots of options for the base CSM, a plethora of HQ options and choices, elite options that were fun and could be used different ways each game you play, possessed walk up the board every game, chosen are very restrictive in how you use them, cleaver options are excessively overprice, dreadnoughts that have possibly the fewest options of anything in the codex. Literally there is just no fun in this codex and this is a game, if you dont have fun dont play. I enjoy playing with my friends and thats probably the only reason ive kept playing this same dex.

I can definitely understand that you miss the ultra customizeable Chosen of the 3.5 Codex. The other complains seem to be summarised into "daemons got outsourced" and "no more armoury and only a few options per unit instead". The latter is not really anything that is particularly a matter of Chaos, as that is how every recent Codex has been done. Whenever a Chaos Player is complaining about the lack of options and diversity he should be refered right to the next Dark Angels player and see how bad off he really is. Though, with the current Codex Space Marines GW has started to include more options for Characters again, which of course raises the spite of those who got their Codex earlier.

 

 

I 100% felt for the marine players during that time period. I play with a very close group of friends and we all talk about our codex's. We have an ork player who had the same awful codex for 10 years, a full decade. One of us is a dark angels player and we have just now FINALLY talked him into playing his stuff out of the marine codex, just so he can have some fun. We have a necron player who well...Is probably more bland than any of us. Point is, i feel for all of them. This does not take away the fact it has happened to chaos players too. Bland is bland, no getting around it.

 

People that complain about a wargear section really need to jump on the times. No codex is going to have wargear section again. Im personally fine with that, keep all the options within the specific unit and keep things together. The new ork, marine, guard, and space wolves codex's are all great in my opinion. I am also one of those who knows that eventually it will come back to chaos and the codex will be rewritten, i just hope when that time comes its done with the current format. They tried the dark angels, blood angels, chaos, eldar formatt and in all the cases it has recieved bitter responses. The single biggest issue amongst all four is the lack of fluff and the bland nature of the beast. Our time will come, its just a matter of when.

 

Im really looking forward for a new necron and nid codex. Those should be awesome if they stick to the current style.

[the jeske]

No codex is going to have wargear section again.

:cough:SW dex:cough:...

 

 

also no offense to other players , but neither the DA or necron player base was very large to begin with while chaos was huge . it was second best sold codex after normal sm and generated a lot of cash for GW .

[Brother Amarel]

The loss of Wargear lists was a terrible idea. I loved the Wargear pages.

 

The DA base is pretty big, Jeske, not as big as SM / CSM / (probably) IG, nor as big as SW will become over the next year or so, but right up there with the second string (Eldar, Ork, etc).

[Castlerook]

Jeske, I've been a DA player since 97 and I take no offense, the Dark Angels in 3rd edition never really had any wargear section (5 items doesn't constitute a wide selection of items, especially when most of them were banners where one banner could be used a game). Which is a shame because of the wealth of background gives the impression that the Dark Angels have many relics, ranging from meteorite swords to extremely ornate weapons and armour.

 

And your right, ask any store what the three biggest 40k ranges are and they'll tell you its Space Marines, Chaos Marines and Orks, the varient Marine books might sell, but not in large numbers for a store. The biggest draw of wargear is that you can make completely unique characters, how many Lords can you see now where a Lord has a daemon weapon and a plasma pistol (generalisation there) in 4.0? Go back an edition, you could have Great Weapons, spiky bits, hounds or gifts a-plenty, all creating one off characters.

 

Some might argue that a huge Wargear section was and is unnecessary, I don't believe so, it let you create truly unique heroes and villains, after all, no one is the same why should a hobbyist's representation on the body be the same as everyone elses. Each item represented a bit of history for the character, for example a Lord with bionics, "What happened? How did he lose the limb or face, was it in battle against a hated foe? Or did he have it removed to better himself, to make himself more terrifying? Is he obsessed with becoming more machine then man? Or did he get a little to close to the daemon pet at feeding time?"

 

40K is a large scale role playing game, the leader on the board represents the player, so like I said before, each player is unique, why should our characters be standardised?

[Legatus]

Chaos Lords can get one of four stat upgrades, so are actually a bit more diverse than for Example Dark Angels commanders are. But there is a certain fluff associated with each of those upgrades, which makes a lot of playerd refrain from using them as "counts as". Sometimes those are the same players that then suggest that the Codex Space Marines with it's ATSKNF Marines would better represent some of the undivided Legions.

[chillin]

a lot of playerd refrain from using them as "counts as". Sometimes those are the same players that then suggest that the Codex Space Marines with it's ATSKNF Marines would better represent some of the undivided Legions.

 

If I were to use SW's dex to represent undivided army, I would not use ATSKNF. I'm guessing their Ld is pretty high anyway, esp w/ a champ in squad. It's not like undivided players aren't used to handicapping themselves in order to represent their army in what they feel is a fluffy way.

[dezul]

having gamed for 15+ years, armies being fluffed by codex changes is nothing new to me. ive got several armies that are no longer legal and or dont interest me since changes to the army books. those of you who are'nt already, need to get used to it. its standard GW procedure to change the entire rule set (pick up the 2nd edition rule book and have a read), if not the codex, or even ditch an entire game system (necromunda, man o war, gorkamorka, warhammer quest - the list goes on). they need to keep us buying models and starting new armies by keeping things moving.

[Castlerook]

The thing is, GW have always tried to keep things generally the same, for example you'll never see the likes of power fists removed from the game. There are three reasons the Design Studio will remove items/units;

* It can be counted as something else

*The benefit of the item is seen as extremely insignificant

*The item is percieved to be rarely, if ever used

 

All three reasons are pretty rubbish, as they can be easily rectified or improved upon. Lets take an example from the Chaos Codex, Great Weapons. The Great Weapon was essentially an upgraded close combat weapon, it took two hands to use, so you couldn't get the +1 attack for having 2 close combat weapons, but you did get +1 strength. Now that isn't a huge bonus, but consider the type of enemies you'd use it against, lightly armoured, low toughness infantry, like Guard, Guardians or Grots. Add Daemonic Strength to that and you had a strength 6 Chaos maniac, designing to clear these soft enemies. It was the poor man's power fist, and it didn't strike last!

 

Yet, when designing the most recent book, the choice of basic weapons was reduced to 4, power fists, lightning claws, power weapons and close combat weapons. Each weapon though can only really be used in certain situations, power fists are best for heavy infantry and tanks, lightning claws, heavy infantry or high wound creatures, power weapons - armoured infantry, kinda wasted on low armoured infantry, the vast majority of saves will be lost. And then you have close combat weapons, basically, their good if you get swamped by the likes of Hormagaunts or Ork boys but only if you pair them with a bolt pistol. Great weapons, were the missing link between the power fist and close combat weapons, you weren't likely to split a tank open but you could certainly do heavy damage to most infantry units. Now, bear in mind that this is all from personal experience, my main use of great weapons was in a medium sized unit of Chosen (about 10 in large games) where most of the warriors had great weapons, 2 power weapons and a power fist. The great weapons cleared most of the enemy by sheer weight of high strength attacks, the power weapons clearing a couple more and the fist taking out tanks and dreadnoughts.

 

So why get rid of a versatile item? Simplicity and streamlining, an idea that has quickly "fizzled" out, too late though for Chaos.

[Legatus]

2 Attacks with Strength 5 against MEQ --> 0.66 wounds

 

3 Attacks with Strength 4 against MEQ --> 0.75 wounds

 

---

 

2 Attacks with Strength 5 against Guard --> 1.11 wounds

 

3 Attacks with Strength 4 against Guard --> 1.33 wounds

 

---

 

I guess that's why it got axed.

[the jeske]

So why get rid of a versatile item? Simplicity and streamlining, an idea that has quickly "fizzled" out, too late though for Chaos.

well the sad truth is that we got codex chaos sm because the ork model range wasnt ready and they had to push back codex orks . and it was still JJ era [GW thought that bad sales of codex DA were because they werent the main stream and because there was the 4th ed sm dex , that was plain better] , so streamlining was the thing to do. they cut everything they could , the dex looks like a clone of the 3ed JJ chaos dex[the one everyone tried to forget] .

 

I dont even mind losing the wargear section. even the demonic gifts . If the normal options werent auto picks. you take an aps champ ... you take a fist . you take an HQ you take wings [and demon weapon for lords and warp time for DPs] . squads are always 10 man [it would be nice to have smaller then 10 man csm squads ,even without the second special] , pms and zerkers were clearlly tailored to work at 7/8 man squads . termis work only as termicid , its impossible to make them a hth unit [what considering chaos fluff is sad]. oblits are superior to every hvy support choice. etc ,etc .

 

 

the SW dex is a great example of how a dex should look like in 5thed. frostblade and pistol. viable. dual claws . viable . TH+shield [and eternal warrior :) saga] . viable or you can take one of the specials. want to ride a bike or join a LR squad . cool both is good. or maybe join a WG unit in a pod . viable too . options everywhere and it doesnt even bother much , that everything is more or less preconstructed by the DT. In the chaos dex we dont even get to pick the most basic stuff. always wings [steeds, bikes suck , even jump packs suck too ] always demon weapon.

[Legatus]

the SW dex is a great example of how a dex should look like in 5thed. frostblade and pistol. viable. dual claws . viable . TH+shield [and eternal warrior dry.gif saga] . viable or you can take one of the specials. want to ride a bike or join a LR squad . cool both is good. or maybe join a WG unit in a pod . viable too . options everywhere and it doesnt even bother much , that everything is more or less preconstructed by the DT. In the chaos dex we dont even get to pick the most basic stuff. always wings [steeds, bikes suck , even jump packs suck too ] always demon weapon.

Why are all those choices viable for a Wolf Lord but the same choices are not viable for a Chaos Lord?

 

Yeaaaaaah, Legatus, no one really cares about the mathhammer. I don't care if a weapon will get me more victims, I care if it looks good. Scythe-like great weapons looked fantastic. Simple as that.

Since there are no 2H CC weapons for Champions or CSM in the current Codex, every weapon must therefor technically be a 1H weapon, how ever unwieldy they might look. Simple as that.

 

I converted a hooded Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain with Scythe ("death" style). Are you saying I cannot use that because the Dark Angels do not have access to 2H close combat weapons?

[Smurfalypse]

No codex is going to have wargear section again.

:cough:SW dex:cough:...

 

 

also no offense to other players , but neither the DA or necron player base was very large to begin with while chaos was huge . it was second best sold codex after normal sm and generated a lot of cash for GW .

 

 

I was more meaning the open "buy whatever you want" system like the 3.5 dex had. All the options should and are under each unit in the SM codex. Though the sheer amount of options is kinda breath taking :P

[Smurfalypse]

the SW dex is a great example of how a dex should look like in 5thed. frostblade and pistol. viable. dual claws . viable . TH+shield [and eternal warrior dry.gif saga] . viable or you can take one of the specials. want to ride a bike or join a LR squad . cool both is good. or maybe join a WG unit in a pod . viable too . options everywhere and it doesnt even bother much , that everything is more or less preconstructed by the DT. In the chaos dex we dont even get to pick the most basic stuff. always wings [steeds, bikes suck , even jump packs suck too ] always demon weapon.

 

Why are all those choices viable for a Wolf Lord but the same choices are not viable for a Chaos Lord?

 

Yeaaaaaah, Legatus, no one really cares about the mathhammer. I don't care if a weapon will get me more victims, I care if it looks good. Scythe-like great weapons looked fantastic. Simple as that.

Since there are no 2H CC weapons for Champions or CSM in the current Codex, every weapon must therefor technically be a 1H weapon, how ever unwieldy they might look. Simple as that.

 

I converted a hooded Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain with Scythe ("death" style). Are you saying I cannot use that because the Dark Angels do not have access to 2H close combat weapons?

 

 

I know where you are going with that first part, and the answer is no, not really. A daemon weapon is fun but lets face it, for 40pts its very very bad. We do get duel claws, PF isnt useable as we have only a 5+ invuln save and no eternal warrior, same with chainfist (which i use anyway cause it looks awesome), undivided steed gives you 0, though the points for it are still right there. No pod to join, land raiders carry less folks then everyone else who has them but is still the same cost (four terms and a lord isnt exactly threatening). You can literally take 60% of the chaos lords options and shove them out of the door as kinda silly choices. I do think wings comes in handy from time to time, the downside is our raptors are a tad to pricey for most peoples liking, so its hard to get a unit to run with him. When you cut out the "fat" of the chaos lords options it becomes painfully clear that your already limited choices are reduced even more.

 

I understand you like the codex legatus, and seriously i respect that. I in a strange way like some of the things in the codex as well too. If you like it and 20 other people are saying they dont, the 20 folks need to respect that fact with you and you need to respect that fact with them. Agree to disagree and move on, these arguments are very pointless. Lets all move on to better subjects and focus our anger on other things :P

[the jeske]

Why are all those choices viable for a Wolf Lord but the same choices are not viable for a Chaos Lord?

we dont have TH . we have fists , but without eternal warrior its just as bad [without SS too] .

frost blades are good and cheap and not random. also you dont have to take WL , you can pick Priests [wolf or run] or WG and you can have 4 . the moment when they turn from kamikaze HQs [like we have in our dex] to a buffed up sgt in every troop section , a lot changes . and thats just lord vs Wolflord/Wolf priest.

Check how flexible runes priests are and how many usable options chaos sorc have.

sorc has wings and lash .thats it. Each RP power is usable .

 

+they have options we had in 3.5 and no longer have . [ quasi infiltration for HQ for example] .

 

 

bikes... well there is no good bodyguard unit for a chaos HQ on bike , unlike a SW HQ [not just a wolf lord] who has two options . Am not saying tier 1 , but good. chaos bikes are unplayable.

 

Since there are no 2H CC weapons for Champions or CSM in the current Codex, every weapon must therefor technically be a 1H weapon, how ever unwieldy they might look. Simple as that.

unless your using a lord [so a deamo weapon that is double handed] and you get kicked on WYSIWYG. And dont tell me it doesnt happen , because it does.

[DuskRaider]

And then throw a 50 point Icon on them... which they can lose in one turn. :o

 

Really, I think the Icons were one of the worst ideas in this codex. Should've just stuck with Marks.

[Wolfbiter]

And then throw a 50 point Icon on them... which they can lose in one turn. :blink:

 

Really, I think the Icons were one of the worst ideas in this codex. Should've just stuck with Marks.

 

I do like the new ability to use Icons as a homer for Deep Striking Troops, it's really helped my Chaos Terminators. And I also like the idea of being able to "customize" regular CSMs to give them a Chaos God-themed flavor without them actually being Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, etc.

 

BUT...I agree 100 percent that the Mark benefit should have be permanent for the steep cost. Given how much Icons cost, it seems counterintuitive to GW's "simplify" approach to require players to adjust a unit's stats in mid-battle after taking 1 casualty.

 

Even though I've been able to play satisfactory games using Chaos with the latest dex, I find it easy to understand why some veteran players are upset. When you are told your codex is being cut down because there are too many complicated options, and then subsequent codices are given even more over-the-top characters, weapons, special rules and super characters that allow you to change your army composition (the very things taken away from Chaos), I don't blame anyone playing Chaos for being frustrated.

 

It's a bit like those insurance commercials where the man gives the first little girl a tiny toy pony...and then he gives the next little girl in line a full-sized, real HORSE. When the first little girl complains, "I didn't know I could get a horse!" the man shrugs and says, "You didn't ask." :o

 

The sad thing is, many Chaos players did ask. ^_^

[chillin]

Check how flexible runes priests are and how many usable options chaos sorc have.

Each RP power is usable .

+they have options we had in 3.5 and no longer have .

 

I have to admit the rune prist and his powers do look good. They are what a chaos sorc should be.

So we have another yet another psycher that is more powerful/useful then even a TZ sorc :o (it would seem)

[incinerator950]

Thousand Sons are not splintered, Death Guard are not Splintered, they just have a small amount of deserters. Thorpe made the tiny amount of fluff available on Plague Marines basically say 90% of all Plague Marines are from the Death Guard. The DG just send out large amounts of Plague Fleets, the only real rogue activity came out of Typhus.

 

Ahriman leads the only separate known Rubric Marine TSs warband, really, alot of these warbands are custom themes, in actuality most of them are still part of the old legion.

 

World Eaters and Emperor's Children are shattered, Word Bearers are probably the most organized of the Legions, with Night Lords and Black Legion following as they branch out but still remain part of a whole. Alpha Legion can't decide if it want's to be loyalist, rogue astartes, or Chaos Cultists so I'm not going to talk about them.