Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[chillin]

Nice quick sum-up of the legions 950. It's good to shead light of the disinformation of this dex.

Like BL being made up of members of other legions, what rubbish.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, I guess the Icons are alright for Teleport Homers, but then again you can give a Personal Icon to a squad for only 5 points (which I usually do).

[Castlerook]

Huh and theres me thinking the Black Legion was made up of the Black Legion, some dedicated to Khorne, some to Tzeentch, but all Black Legionaries dedicated to Abaddon, not groups of Death Guard or Emperor's Children in black, it makes it look like the original Black Legion are dead. More proof that there was little research done into the codex.

 

Legatus, I'm fine with the fact that some people like the current codex, and if they like using it, fair enough, I'll give them respect for that. But I don't like the current, and a lot of people don't like the current. The question is, can you respect that?

[incinerator950]

Huh and theres me thinking the Black Legion was made up of the Black Legion, some dedicated to Khorne, some to Tzeentch, but all Black Legionaries dedicated to Abaddon, not groups of Death Guard or Emperor's Children in black, it makes it look like the original Black Legion are dead. More proof that there was little research done into the codex.

 

Legatus, I'm fine with the fact that some people like the current codex, and if they like using it, fair enough, I'll give them respect for that. But I don't like the current, and a lot of people don't like the current. The question is, can you respect that?

 

It's Thorpes fault for not specifying into the details. Black Legion numbers are being complimented by Deserters of Renegade Chapters and other Legions but the reality is those Cult troops are supposed to be BL folk, although I have a very hard time seeing Rubric Marines in BL unless a TS Sorc came along with his support forces. Another missinterpretation that being a Plague Marine makes you Death Guard, or a Khorne Berserker makes you a World Eater. In my opinion, very few people should have access to Rubric Marines besides Ahriman and maby one or 4 Warbands, even then, why would a Thousand Son Sorcerer who is most comfortable under his Legion and has very few if no other allies besides on the World of Sorcerers?

[Legatus]

Gav did state in his article that only the Thousand Sons are the exception as they are not just a super marked cult squad, so I don't think it was his intention to write that all berserkers come from teh World Eaters and all Plague Marines from the Death Guard.

What did change in the Codex (or maybe was just further elaborated) is that now the cult unist are not simply very dedicated Marines, but there is allways some creation process involved that was originally unique to that particula cult Legion. Berserkers are not just fanatic Khorne worshipers, they are psycho-surgically altered Marines, and while originally only the World Eaters used that technique, with the disintegration of the World Eaters the other Legions have acquired some of the Berserker surgeons. So they can now make their own Berserkers.

 

 

Legatus, I'm fine with the fact that some people like the current codex, and if they like using it, fair enough, I'll give them respect for that. But I don't like the current, and a lot of people don't like the current. The question is, can you respect that?

I mainly have a problem with the notion that the Codex is broken and cannot represent any of the Legions at all. If someone find the Codex bland I cannot really argue with him. Me, I had a lot of fun coming up with different daemon types each Legion might use. It almost made me start a small Iron Warriors force just because I have allways liked their models and now they weren't considered beardy anymore. (Iron Warrior daemons: mechanical devices start coming to life and attacking, represented by mechanical arms and tentacles bursting out of the ground, maybe 3-4 arms per base. Movement represents the tentacles being pulled back in and then bursting out somewhere nearby. Either that or mechanical cyborg zombies, half WHFB zombies half necrons or other mechanical bits.)

[DuskRaider]

What they DID say in the codex is while not all Plague Marines are Death Guard and not all Berserkers are World Eaters, all Death Guard are Plague Marines and all World Eaters are Berserkers. Doesn't really leave much to the imagination now, does it? :(

[Castlerook]

I mainly have a problem with the notion that the Codex is broken and cannot represent any of the Legions at all. If someone find the Codex bland I cannot really argue with him. Me, I had a lot of fun coming up with different daemon types each Legion might use. It almost made me start a small Iron Warriors force just because I have allways liked their models and now they weren't considered beardy anymore. (Iron Warrior daemons: mechanical devices start coming to life and attacking, represented by mechanical arms and tentacles bursting out of the ground, maybe 3-4 arms per base. Movement represents the tentacles being pulled back in and then bursting out somewhere nearby. Either that or mechanical cyborg zombies, half WHFB zombies half necrons or other mechanical bits.)

And thats fine. Just remember that respect though, it travels both ways.

 

I've always considered the current book to be more a Codex: Renegades then a true Traitors codex. Its fine if its used for the likes of the Red Corsairs or the Punishers or whatever Renegade force, but it doesn't have the ability to represent a true Traitor army. The likes of the Berzerkers are the Renegades who have dedicated themselves to a particular God, in this case Khorne. But even though the name is the same there are differences, and I'm not talking about game rules. The World Eaters were the first berzerkers in power armour, but it wasn't just the power of the Blood God that drove them, it wasn't just the precise lobotomisation the World Eaters used, it wasn't just the way they were shaped by their Primarch, it was a combination of these, and other factors, made them the true Berzerkers of Khorne. The World Eaters worship Khorne through bloodshed, be it the enemies blood, or their own.

 

But with the Berzerkers in the current codex, you get the feeling that instead of screaming "Blood for the Blood God!" these newer Berzerkers are going "Stabby stab stab". Yes they use the lobotomisation that Angron introduced, but its often a poor man's version of the process. What you end up with in the Codex is Khorne's E team, its not even the B team (That'd be the Black Legion and their own Berzerkers)! As Jervis Johnston said, "All World Eaters are Berzerkers, but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters", I'd like to change it to this "All World Eaters are Berzerkers, but not all Berzerkers are World Eaters, the World Eaters are just a whole lot better at it!"

 

It can be applied to two of the other Cults (Somehow I doubt any Chaos lord would be enough of an idiot to allow a few of his sorcerers to do their own version of the Rubric of Ahriman), the Plague Marines and the Noise Marines. The Renegade versions might be superficially be the same, but they'll never be as powerful as the original Cults and nor should they be. The original Cults have been around for 10000 years, thats time they've had to learn their abilities and how to improve them.

 

The versions of the Cults in the current book can be summed up like this, a famous team creates a franchise and allows another team to use it, you expect the newer team to perform well and to the standard of the original. What you end up with is a team that performs so badly your embarressed your actually watching this.

[the jeske]

Me, I had a lot of fun coming up with different daemon types each Legion might use

 

0_o wait ... you mean house rulling stuff? because in the chaos sm dex you have LSD and GD and thats it . Maybe its me not grasping english well enough.

 

What did change in the Codex (or maybe was just further elaborated) is that now the cult unist are not simply very dedicated Marines,

but you do know that this goes against 25 years of fluff about chaos , how does one get marks and what does it mean to serv a god.

[Morticon]

Me, I had a lot of fun coming up with different daemon types each Legion might use

 

0_o wait ... you mean house rulling stuff? because in the chaos sm dex you have LSD and GD and thats it . Maybe its me not grasping english well enough.

 

 

Its probably not that Jeske, its possibly that you're not seeing how he used his imagination.

[Legatus]

0_o wait ... you mean house rulling stuff? because in the chaos sm dex you have LSD and GD and thats it . Maybe its me not grasping english well enough.

Meaining, you take the simple "lesser daemon" profile but come up with a conversion that would suit your particular army, and not simply use the bloodletter, plaguebearer or fury models. That could by cyborg zombies for the Iron Warriors, more of gruesome experiments with slaves and bionics than just warp creatures. For my Night Lords I use flying daemon critter swarms, represented by whfb vampire bats with cut off ears (to look a tiny bit less than bats) where two are glued to one base, each base being a mini-swarm. So a unit of 10 daemons would be represented by 20 flying critters (on 10 bases). I imagine they are of the sort that can gnaw off all the flesh of a living being in a matter of seconds.

Other ideas would be "flesh worms of Khorne" that feast on the cadavers of the Berserkers victims (2nd Edition Tyranid Rippers, stacked to an about humanoid sized swarm per base), or simply "Plague Zombies" for Nurgle. Another idea would be barbed tentacles bursting from the ground, tearing at nearby enemies, "moving" by being pulled back underground and bursting out somewhere else nearby. For Iron Warriors they could be mechanical arms and cables.

 

but you do know that this goes against 25 years of fluff about chaos , how does one get marks and what does it mean to serv a god.

They do serve the god, but serving Khorne it is not enough to make a Chaos Space Marine a "Berserker". Berserkers are created via psycho surgical operations.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Thats cool, but what if i want to represent the bloodletters that traditionally fight alongside my berserkers. Its like, i can represent all these cool new ideas i've come up with, but i can't represent what the unit is actually supposed to be. And with the old daemon stats, i could still have come up with my own stuff just as easily, but have 1-5 stat profiles to use instead of just 1.

[Castlerook]

When is a Bloodletter not a Bloodletter?

When its used in a Codex Chaos Space Marine army.

 

I knew a guy who used necron pieces to create his Iron Warrior Possessed. Back when you could pick their power rather then the random mess now. I used the plastic Vampire Ghouls in an experiment for Night Lord Shadow Daemons. Didn't like it personally. Its a great way for coming up with ideas for renegades, they might appeal to lesser aspects of a Chaos God for help, or even a Lesser God, after all, the Big Four aren't the only Chaos Gods in the warp. But for the likes of the World Eaters or Death Guard aren't they going to have their own Daemons, rather then the generalised daemon statline? Its perfect for the Undivided Legions, but what about the Dedicated Legions?

[Smurfalypse]

0_o wait ... you mean house rulling stuff? because in the chaos sm dex you have LSD and GD and thats it . Maybe its me not grasping english well enough.

Meaining, you take the simple "lesser daemon" profile but come up with a conversion that would suit your particular army, and not simply use the bloodletter, plaguebearer or fury models. That could by cyborg zombies for the Iron Warriors, more of gruesome experiments with slaves and bionics than just warp creatures. For my Night Lords I use flying daemon critter swarms, represented by whfb vampire bats with cut off ears (to look a tiny bit less than bats) where two are glued to one base, each base being a mini-swarm. So a unit of 10 daemons would be represented by 20 flying critters (on 10 bases). I imagine they are of the sort that can gnaw off all the flesh of a living being in a matter of seconds.

Other ideas would be "flesh worms of Khorne" that feast on the cadavers of the Berserkers victims (2nd Edition Tyranid Rippers, stacked to an about humanoid sized swarm per base), or simply "Plague Zombies" for Nurgle. Another idea would be barbed tentacles bursting from the ground, tearing at nearby enemies, "moving" by being pulled back underground and bursting out somewhere else nearby. For Iron Warriors they could be mechanical arms and cables.

 

but you do know that this goes against 25 years of fluff about chaos , how does one get marks and what does it mean to serv a god.

They do serve the god, but serving Khorne it is not enough to make a Chaos Space Marine a "Berserker". Berserkers are created via psycho surgical operations.

 

 

Well youve covered conversions, but then again i dont see any complaints that we cant convert models. Fact remains you can put in 30 hours of conversion time on flesh worms of khorne, you can spend 20 hours converting necron parts into robotic ninjas for your iron warriors and they still have the same stats, do the same thing, follow the exact same rules as generic daemons. Hence most peoples issue with the codex, a lack of flavor, or a lack of soul.

 

I personaly use generic daemons ALOT. About half the time to be exact. They are awfully boring and really offer nothing fun to the game. In the end thats what this is, a game that is played for fun. Things like generic lesser/greater daemons just are not very fun and only hold ones inerest for a handful of games.

[Legatus]

Thats cool, but what if i want to represent the bloodletters that traditionally fight alongside my berserkers.

Supposedly it is not that simple to just summon a few daemons anytime you want, and the farther you are away from the Eye the more difficult it gets. So there will not be Bloodletters popping up every time the World Eaters engage in battle, especially during minor skirmishes. You can still use Bloodletters in multiple detachment games or Apocalypse, so there are still legal ways to use them with CSM, though they will not be used in average battles and only in major engagements.

 

Well youve covered conversions, but then again i dont see any complaints that we cant convert models. Fact remains you can put in 30 hours of conversion time on flesh worms of khorne, you can spend 20 hours converting necron parts into robotic ninjas for your iron warriors and they still have the same stats, do the same thing, follow the exact same rules as generic daemons. Hence most peoples issue with the codex, a lack of flavor, or a lack of soul.

But that's actually beneficial. The current Codex basically gives you a blanked unit profile of "some warp critters" that suddenly pop up somewhere and attack in HtH. You are basically reuired to make yourt own daemons, similar to how the previous Codex Imperial Guard (or was it the 3rd?) explained that there are no models for Veterans and players would have to convert their own. It is a direct motivation to not just buy the models and assemble and paint them as they appear on the box and in the Codex.

How many CSM/WE armies have you seen with Bloodletters in 3.5? And how many "count as" Bloodletters (or any other daemon) have you seen?

 

I personaly use generic daemons ALOT. About half the time to be exact. They are awfully boring and really offer nothing fun to the game. In the end thats what this is, a game that is played for fun. Things like generic lesser/greater daemons just are not very fun and only hold ones inerest for a handful of games.

I think daemons are fun to use. There are only 5 CSM close to the enemy lines, and he thinks he can take 5 CSM. But then 10 daemons pop up right next to his guys and charge in with the 5 CSM, adding a bunch of attacks to the fight. Would it be more fun if you could chose between daemons with powerweapons and daemons with T5? Maybe, but that does not make regular daemons less fun. I especially enjoy when the dameons are self made creatures. If you put down your Bloodletters, they are the standard Khorne daemons everyone knows, and they are nasty and do their thing, but it is the regular thing, everyone has them etc. There is more satisfaction involved, and you can get more "into it" when you place down your Plague Zombies that swarm an unsuspecting enemy unit, or a few tentacles that burst out of the ground all around them.

[the jeske]

Meaining, you take the simple "lesser daemon" profile but come up with a conversion that would suit your particular army, and not simply use the bloodletter, plaguebearer or fury models

but that doesnt make sense this means a khorn demon is the same tzeench one , even with counts as .It is specially odd when codex demons tells us that they are different. am still not understanding the "making your own" demons part . Do you mean converting and painting ? If yes , then what does that has to do with rules [and we are talking about rules here I think].

 

 

So there will not be Bloodletters popping up every time the World Eaters engage in battle, especially during minor skirmishes.

thats not true .there is no way a khorn dedicted/marked person could summon a tzeench or undivided demon . again thats what made BL and WB special was that they had packts with all the gods/chaos powers [and I dont mean just the 3.5 dex] and could summon different demons. Its simple a nurgle demon would just not anwser the call of someone not dedicted to nurgle.

The current Codex basically gives you a blanked unit profile of "some warp critters" that suddenly pop up somewhere and attack in HtH

nope. it gives us lesser demons not dedicted to any chaos god , not some warp critters . And why it could be somehow explained for an undivided force how those are summoned , it totally makes no sense how a 1ksons coven or Death guard army summons something not dedicted to their god.

 

There is more satisfaction involved, and you can get more "into it" when you place down your Plague Zombies that swarm an unsuspecting enemy unit, or a few tentacles that burst out of the ground all around them.

first of all who told in 4th ed or in 3ed or even 2ed that you cant convert demons or couldnt use converted letters or demonetts? There were no rules said you cant convert your stuff. There were people with ad mecha IW counts as armies , they werent banned from tournaments or anything . Dont talk like it was the 4th ed dex that gave us options to convert models . I seen samurai theamed WE , hrud with EC rules all done with 3.5 dex. I have yet to see people win tournaments or/and make such conversions with the new dex.

[Lord Ragnarok]

And then throw a 50 point Icon on them... which they can lose in one turn. :D

 

Really, I think the Icons were one of the worst ideas in this codex. should've just stuck with Marks.

 

Yeah, if they keep icons they should provide special protection from the gods (3+ INV save, rerolls or something like that)

[Smurfalypse]

Thats cool, but what if i want to represent the bloodletters that traditionally fight alongside my berserkers.

Supposedly it is not that simple to just summon a few daemons anytime you want, and the farther you are away from the Eye the more difficult it gets. So there will not be Bloodletters popping up every time the World Eaters engage in battle, especially during minor skirmishes. You can still use Bloodletters in multiple detachment games or Apocalypse, so there are still legal ways to use them with CSM, though they will not be used in average battles and only in major engagements.

 

Well youve covered conversions, but then again i dont see any complaints that we cant convert models. Fact remains you can put in 30 hours of conversion time on flesh worms of khorne, you can spend 20 hours converting necron parts into robotic ninjas for your iron warriors and they still have the same stats, do the same thing, follow the exact same rules as generic daemons. Hence most peoples issue with the codex, a lack of flavor, or a lack of soul.

But that's actually beneficial. The current Codex basically gives you a blanked unit profile of "some warp critters" that suddenly pop up somewhere and attack in HtH. You are basically reuired to make yourt own daemons, similar to how the previous Codex Imperial Guard (or was it the 3rd?) explained that there are no models for Veterans and players would have to convert their own. It is a direct motivation to not just buy the models and assemble and paint them as they appear on the box and in the Codex.

How many CSM/WE armies have you seen with Bloodletters in 3.5? And how many "count as" Bloodletters (or any other daemon) have you seen?

 

I personaly use generic daemons ALOT. About half the time to be exact. They are awfully boring and really offer nothing fun to the game. In the end thats what this is, a game that is played for fun. Things like generic lesser/greater daemons just are not very fun and only hold ones inerest for a handful of games.

I think daemons are fun to use. There are only 5 CSM close to the enemy lines, and he thinks he can take 5 CSM. But then 10 daemons pop up right next to his guys and charge in with the 5 CSM, adding a bunch of attacks to the fight. Would it be more fun if you could chose between daemons with powerweapons and daemons with T5? Maybe, but that does not make regular daemons less fun. I especially enjoy when the dameons are self made creatures. If you put down your Bloodletters, they are the standard Khorne daemons everyone knows, and they are nasty and do their thing, but it is the regular thing, everyone has them etc. There is more satisfaction involved, and you can get more "into it" when you place down your Plague Zombies that swarm an unsuspecting enemy unit, or a few tentacles that burst out of the ground all around them.

 

 

I used lesser daemons the first game, i used them the second, i used them the third, i didnt use them the fourth, used them the fifth, so and and so forth. They are the same every single time i play them, there is no way i could use them a bit differently. A "warp beast" is a warp beast, nothing to differenciate one from the other. I can build them to shoot, i cant build them to tank, i cant build them to be fast, i cant build them to be "magicy", everytime i use them they are the same.

 

Lets take another unit from the CSM codex. CSMs themselves. I can build them one game for longer range firepower, next game i can build them for close quarter shooty, next game i can set them up with nothing but the assault in mind, the next game i can build them to summon daemons. I can change what i do from game to game if i want, adding some flavor to what i do with them. Terminators are the same way, havoks are the same way.

 

Possessed are not that way. I take them and they will do the same thing for me every single game i play. They will walk up the board and try to just tank their way into melee with someone. Before when we had them we could build them for speed, or for tank hunting, or for tanking, ect ect. Less options doesnt give you more options. Just the facts of things. You can like this new codex and im not saying you shouldnt, there are some very good things about it, but that doesnt make it any less souless or boring.

 

Again ive played 40k for 15+ years. I got started in when i was in the army and my first codex was the chaos codex. Ive never since bought another codex for myself, only when a new chaos codex came out. This is the first time ive bought a codex for myself from a different army. Guard if you must know, though i am painting/converting them to match my WB force so i can use both in apoc games. Its a boring codex, the writers did a poor job, no codex has been attacked like this one has. That says it all.

[incinerator950]

What they DID say in the codex is while not all Plague Marines are Death Guard and not all Berserkers are World Eaters, all Death Guard are Plague Marines and all World Eaters are Berserkers. Doesn't really leave much to the imagination now, does it? :o

 

Actually, I think it said not all Death Guard became plague marines.

[chillin]

Huh and theres me thinking the Black Legion was made up of the Black Legion, some dedicated to Khorne, some to Tzeentch, but all Black Legionaries, not groups of Death Guard or Emperor's Children in black, . More proof that there was little research done into the codex.

 

Black Legion numbers are being complimented by Deserters of Renegade Chapters and other Legions

 

Yea, I guess you could believe Gav Thorpe had it right, or you could believe the 20 years of BL fluff (and s/m/csm fluff in general) that he totally contradicts.

BL, and all legions/chapters are made up of marines that have the geneseed of their primarch. BL is not made up of renegades and rejects from other legions. It is made up of black legionaries that have always been BL and were made from Horus' geneseed.

[incinerator950]

Huh and theres me thinking the Black Legion was made up of the Black Legion, some dedicated to Khorne, some to Tzeentch, but all Black Legionaries, not groups of Death Guard or Emperor's Children in black, . More proof that there was little research done into the codex.

 

Black Legion numbers are being complimented by Deserters of Renegade Chapters and other Legions

 

Yea, I guess you could believe Gav Thorpe had it right, or you could believe the 20 years of BL fluff (and s/m/csm fluff in general) that he totally contradicts.

BL, and all legions/chapters are made up of marines that have the geneseed of their primarch. BL is not made up of renegades and rejects from other legions. It is made up of black legionaries that have always been BL and were made from Horus' geneseed.

 

I did not say that half the Legion, I said Compliment, otherwise BL wouldn't be slowly gaining support from other Traitors. Keep in mind that whatever Fluff Thorpe has written now, kicks over the old ones. Relatively small and pointless but it does sadly.

[DuskRaider]

Actually, I think it said not all Death Guard became plague marines.

 

 

Unfortunately, it didn't. :)

[Legatus]

but that doesnt make sense this means a khorn demon is the same tzeench one , even with counts as .It is specially odd when codex demons tells us that they are different. am still not understanding the "making your own" demons part . Do you mean converting and painting ? If yes , then what does that has to do with rules [and we are talking about rules here I think].

And I would assume that every Khorne daemon is different by itself, and they are not all carbon copies of one another. BLoodletters all share the same profile because the differences are too minor and are ignored for simplicity sake. But these are not Bloodletters, these are lesser daemons. The weakest essence of a Chaos god, easy to conjure up, gone as fast as they came. The differences between teh weakest Khorne creatures and the weakest Nurgle Creatures perhaps do not warrant a different profiel.

 

More about the rules below.

 

 

So there will not be Bloodletters popping up every time the World Eaters engage in battle, especially during minor skirmishes.

thats not true .there is no way a khorn dedicted/marked person could summon a tzeench or undivided demon . again thats what made BL and WB special was that they had packts with all the gods/chaos powers [and I dont mean just the 3.5 dex] and could summon different demons. Its simple a nurgle demon would just not anwser the call of someone not dedicted to nurgle.

What I was trying to say is that often the World Eaters will have to do without the help of daemons. They will not be able to summon them for every encounter. Summoning daemons is not such a trivial task, and the 40K games you play are not allways supposed to be the final stages of global conquest and the doom of a world. Did I phrase that badly?

 

 

The current Codex basically gives you a blanked unit profile of "some warp critters" that suddenly pop up somewhere and attack in HtH

nope. it gives us lesser demons not dedicted to any chaos god , not some warp critters . And why it could be somehow explained for an undivided force how those are summoned , it totally makes no sense how a 1ksons coven or Death guard army summons something not dedicted to their god.

Well, they do summon warp critters ( :P ) dedicated to their god. But they are lesser creatures without disticnt characteristics that would distinguish them from the myriad lesser warp creatures that might be the essence of another power.

 

 

There is more satisfaction involved, and you can get more "into it" when you place down your Plague Zombies that swarm an unsuspecting enemy unit, or a few tentacles that burst out of the ground all around them.

first of all who told in 4th ed or in 3ed or even 2ed that you cant convert demons or couldnt use converted letters or demonetts? There were no rules said you cant convert your stuff. There were people with ad mecha IW counts as armies , they werent banned from tournaments or anything . Dont talk like it was the 4th ed dex that gave us options to convert models . I seen samurai theamed WE , hrud with EC rules all done with 3.5 dex. I have yet to see people win tournaments or/and make such conversions with the new dex.

In 4th or 3rd or 2nd Ed you had four distinct cult daemon rule sets and four cult daemon model ranges. That does not exactly invite players to convert their own creatures to use instead of "daemonettes". That is the "advantage" of the current lesser daemons. The rules are blanket stats without being for one specific creature with an available model. Players are now basically required to come up with their own creations.

 

 

I used lesser daemons the first game, i used them the second, i used them the third, i didnt use them the fourth, used them the fifth, so and and so forth. They are the same every single time i play them, there is no way i could use them a bit differently.

I usually use them for one purpose only, to summon 10ish daemons near an enemy unit and assault them. But on the fly I could think of a few different uses.

 

- use only 5 daemons for an annoying distraction

 

- use 8+ daemons to tie up big nasties with few attacks (like loyalist Dreads)

 

- use not just one unit but several bigger units (hello WB), it is not the safest strategy, but could be a fun game

 

- use some daemons not mainly for figting but to provide cover for expensive units against enemy heavy weapons

 

- summon them near your havocs/obliterators when an enemy flanker is about to assault them

 

 

Again ive played 40k for 15+ years. I got started in when i was in the army and my first codex was the chaos codex. Ive never since bought another codex for myself, only when a new chaos codex came out. This is the first time ive bought a codex for myself from a different army. Guard if you must know, though i am painting/converting them to match my WB force so i can use both in apoc games. Its a boring codex, the writers did a poor job, no codex has been attacked like this one has. That says it all.

I see you do have quite a different approach to the game than I do. I enjoy reading new rules, even of armies I don't play, and I check out at least the basic fluff of armies I am not that interrested in myself. I have purchased every Codex since 2nd Edition, and because I am easily excited started several different armies. My overall number 1 army have allways been Ultramarines, while my number 2 has allways been Chaos (starting as undivided plus khorne and then splitting into Night Lords and World Eaters during 3rd to 4th Edition).

On the one hand that means I can be a bit more forgiving towardst weaknesses of one individual Codex, and on the other hand it also means that I already had a pretty good idea how the new Codex Chaos would be changed from what had been done with the Codex Dark Angels and WD Codex Blood Angels. Other than a lot of Dark Angels players (of which I have a small force myself as well) I quite liked the new Codex, as it went very much back to the 2nd Edition root with it's static unit sizes and combat squads rules. In fact, I was disappointed that the new Codex Space Marines had dropped a lot of the C:DA changes and was again more free in it's unit organisation.

 

I guess I am also used to having a pretty straight forward army list from playing Ultramarines since 2nd Edition.

[Brother Hadafix]

Being a UM player, its no wonder that you you have a taste for the vanilla. Again you prefer the simplar rule sets as that as what your more used to.

 

Some people collect an army as they like the look and rules for that army, and they will collect that army alone. Some of the "new" fluff in the C:CSM would be like going back to RT and saying that the UM are 3rd founding, or say that because all the SM fight by the codex, there is no reason for one to be different from the other and they are now all generic.

 

Myself having started 40K with a LATD army, and having no problems playing from 3 codices and a plethora of rules (including generic "mutant" rules that had sprinkles of extra options), to me the the 4.0 as a dull and lifeless peace of work. And going slightly off topic, you are probably in a even smaller minority of player that like the 4.0 C:DA.

[Smurfalypse]

but that doesnt make sense this means a khorn demon is the same tzeench one , even with counts as .It is specially odd when codex demons tells us that they are different. am still not understanding the "making your own" demons part . Do you mean converting and painting ? If yes , then what does that has to do with rules [and we are talking about rules here I think].

And I would assume that every Khorne daemon is different by itself, and they are not all carbon copies of one another. BLoodletters all share the same profile because the differences are too minor and are ignored for simplicity sake. But these are not Bloodletters, these are lesser daemons. The weakest essence of a Chaos god, easy to conjure up, gone as fast as they came. The differences between teh weakest Khorne creatures and the weakest Nurgle Creatures perhaps do not warrant a different profiel.

 

More about the rules below.

 

 

So there will not be Bloodletters popping up every time the World Eaters engage in battle, especially during minor skirmishes.

thats not true .there is no way a khorn dedicted/marked person could summon a tzeench or undivided demon . again thats what made BL and WB special was that they had packts with all the gods/chaos powers [and I dont mean just the 3.5 dex] and could summon different demons. Its simple a nurgle demon would just not anwser the call of someone not dedicted to nurgle.

What I was trying to say is that often the World Eaters will have to do without the help of daemons. They will not be able to summon them for every encounter. Summoning daemons is not such a trivial task, and the 40K games you play are not allways supposed to be the final stages of global conquest and the doom of a world. Did I phrase that badly?

 

 

The current Codex basically gives you a blanked unit profile of "some warp critters" that suddenly pop up somewhere and attack in HtH

nope. it gives us lesser demons not dedicted to any chaos god , not some warp critters . And why it could be somehow explained for an undivided force how those are summoned , it totally makes no sense how a 1ksons coven or Death guard army summons something not dedicted to their god.

Well, they do summon warp critters ( ;) ) dedicated to their god. But they are lesser creatures without disticnt characteristics that would distinguish them from the myriad lesser warp creatures that might be the essence of another power.

 

 

There is more satisfaction involved, and you can get more "into it" when you place down your Plague Zombies that swarm an unsuspecting enemy unit, or a few tentacles that burst out of the ground all around them.

first of all who told in 4th ed or in 3ed or even 2ed that you cant convert demons or couldnt use converted letters or demonetts? There were no rules said you cant convert your stuff. There were people with ad mecha IW counts as armies , they werent banned from tournaments or anything . Dont talk like it was the 4th ed dex that gave us options to convert models . I seen samurai theamed WE , hrud with EC rules all done with 3.5 dex. I have yet to see people win tournaments or/and make such conversions with the new dex.

In 4th or 3rd or 2nd Ed you had four distinct cult daemon rule sets and four cult daemon model ranges. That does not exactly invite players to convert their own creatures to use instead of "daemonettes". That is the "advantage" of the current lesser daemons. The rules are blanket stats without being for one specific creature with an available model. Players are now basically required to come up with their own creations.

 

 

I used lesser daemons the first game, i used them the second, i used them the third, i didnt use them the fourth, used them the fifth, so and and so forth. They are the same every single time i play them, there is no way i could use them a bit differently.

I usually use them for one purpose only, to summon 10ish daemons near an enemy unit and assault them. But on the fly I could think of a few different uses.

 

- use only 5 daemons for an annoying distraction

 

- use 8+ daemons to tie up big nasties with few attacks (like loyalist Dreads)

 

- use not just one unit but several bigger units (hello WB), it is not the safest strategy, but could be a fun game

 

- use some daemons not mainly for figting but to provide cover for expensive units against enemy heavy weapons

 

- summon them near your havocs/obliterators when an enemy flanker is about to assault them

 

 

Again ive played 40k for 15+ years. I got started in when i was in the army and my first codex was the chaos codex. Ive never since bought another codex for myself, only when a new chaos codex came out. This is the first time ive bought a codex for myself from a different army. Guard if you must know, though i am painting/converting them to match my WB force so i can use both in apoc games. Its a boring codex, the writers did a poor job, no codex has been attacked like this one has. That says it all.

I see you do have quite a different approach to the game than I do. I enjoy reading new rules, even of armies I don't play, and I check out at least the basic fluff of armies I am not that interrested in myself. I have purchased every Codex since 2nd Edition, and because I am easily excited started several different armies. My overall number 1 army have allways been Ultramarines, while my number 2 has allways been Chaos (starting as undivided plus khorne and then splitting into Night Lords and World Eaters during 3rd to 4th Edition).

On the one hand that means I can be a bit more forgiving towardst weaknesses of one individual Codex, and on the other hand it also means that I already had a pretty good idea how the new Codex Chaos would be changed from what had been done with the Codex Dark Angels and WD Codex Blood Angels. Other than a lot of Dark Angels players (of which I have a small force myself as well) I quite liked the new Codex, as it went very much back to the 2nd Edition root with it's static unit sizes and combat squads rules. In fact, I was disappointed that the new Codex Space Marines had dropped a lot of the C:DA changes and was again more free in it's unit organisation.

 

I guess I am also used to having a pretty straight forward army list from playing Ultramarines since 2nd Edition.

 

 

It almost sounds like for the chaos players who play chaos because of the fluff, they seem to have the biggest issues with the newer dex. The ones who play as a second fiddly or a side option may think differently. To be honest i rarely lose anymore. Even when i go to tournament i usually can run through my games undefeated. Ard Boyz last year i went in with 60 possessed (yes...three squads of 20) and managed to take my games 5-1. I probably had the most god awful list of anyone i saw around this area, i saw a few other chaos players and their lists were almost carbon copies of eachother. I find it very sad to see things like that.

 

Every codex and ever consumer deserves to have a codex that is written up to standards AT ALL TIMES. People complain and moan about GW being in it for the money ect ect. GW is a company like any other company and the goal is to make money. However as consumers we are entitled to have a quality product, not something half ass'd, then assumed we can wait for four years. This is not good business practice and the sales of the codex and chaos models this time around really did drop off a fair amount.

 

Walked into a local GW store the other day and they were setting up a planetary empires campaign, they asked me who i played and practically begged me to join in. They had 0 chaos players in the area willing to participate, no nid, no necron, no DA, no chaos daemons. They had all marine players and a few imperial guard players, this speaks volumes in my mind. The vast majority dislike the dex, the vast minority like the dex, its just how the state of things are right now.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Walked into a local GW store the other day and they were setting up a planetary empires campaign, they asked me who i played and practically begged me to join in. They had 0 chaos players in the area willing to participate, no nid, no necron, no DA, no chaos daemons. They had all marine players and a few imperial guard players, this speaks volumes in my mind. The vast majority dislike the dex, the vast minority like the dex, its just how the state of things are right now.

 

I had almost this exact same experience.

 

Nice one with the possessed too.