Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Castlerook]

And the real tragedy is, the basics (and I do mean basics) of the list are good. Chaos Spaces Marines (Troop Version) are the only halfway "decent" option in the list. Compared to the Loyalist Marine Codex, for 15pts, you get a fighter that can work both in attack and at range, rather then the ranged fighter you get for 18pts (90pts for the 5 man unit, divided by 5). But thats really the only advantage that the Chaos Marines have. Tactical marines can get a free special and heavy weapon, get rules which make them far more effective for capturing objectives in 5th then the Chaos Marines have. The other Chaos Troop choices are too specialised to be really considered "great" compared to the other "Jack-of-all-trades" troops that other 5th edition armies have, the Cults have a specific purpose and can't really adapt quickly enough to deal with anything outside of their speciality. Khorne Berzerkers can't get into a close combat situation with the Guard if their pinned.

 

When 20% of your Troop core are the only effective choice you have, a list isn't balanced, its about to fall over and collapse.

 

Chaos Lords are an example of basics gone wrong. Why is it that the most common type of Chaos Champion is the least used in the army list? I say that Chaos Lords are the most common because think about it, Daemon Princes are in the minority, the handful of Chaos Champions who have reached the ultimate goal and have not been turned to spawn or killed in battle. Chaos Sorcerers as well, exactly how many of them are running around compared to the ordinary champion? I can accept some people want a Daemon Prince to lead their warband, fair enough, the prince wanted to stay with their warband after they ascended, but two? Come on, even with all that power a Prince would not want to see someone trying to earn their patron's favour, Daemons are jealous creatures and yet we see pairs of them flying about Lashing the hell out of their opponents. Sorcerers are the Harriars of the Chaos army while Lords are left on the shelf and gathering dust.

 

Daemon Weapons provided a huge amount of variety to the armoury and flavour to the army, and now, now Daemon Weapons are vanilla flavoured with food colouring to differenciate them. Where once weapons allowed you to make Chaplins and Grey Knights poop themselves we now have weapons where the user will poop themselves because the guy coming at them isn't going to be affected <cut to a Chaos character with a huge daemonic sword about to attack the enemy only to get a look at the enemy and the sword goes limp>. There was a huge choice before (12 weapons spread out over the 5 marks!), now its colour coded weapons.

 

We, the consumer, ask for just one thing when we buy GW products...... consistency. We know that it can be difficult to improve the game and to move it forward, yet keeping everyone happy. But its unreasonable to ask us to sit with our hands held together and have a smile on our faces for four-five years and do nothing when substandard codexes are released.

 

Games Workshop is supposed to be a high quality company, making high quality products. A lot of people think that means nicely printed books or well scuplted miniatures. Thats not quality, and definitely not high quality products. Quality can be described in two quotes

Joseph M. Juran, 1904 - 2008

"Quality is Fitness for Purpose". Fitness is defined by the consumer

 

Peter Drucker, 1909 - 2005

"Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for."

 

Most of you will have no clue who these men were, but I can tell you all, both men knew what they were talking about, Juran literally wrote the book on Quality Assurance and Management, in fact his books are the standard books used in all courses teaching those subjects. Drucker's work help turn the Japanese industry from the battered wreck it was after the Second World War into the economic manufacturing and effiecient superpower it is today.

 

What both men mean is that we, the consumer, must decide what is a high quality product, after all we're the ones using it. The producer cannot dictate to us whats a good product and what isn't. The vast majority of us feel that the Chaos Codex was very poorly done and isn't fit for the purpose it was intended. We are getting nothing from it and cannot stand it anymore. Games-workshop should remember that it works for the consumer, not the other way around.

[BrotherLoki]

Khorne Berzerkers can't get into a close combat situation with the Guard if their pinned.

 

Surely berzerker's are fearless, and therefore can't be pinned. I think you underestimate how good the chaos troops are. Berzerkers and plague marines are excellent at their roles (assaulting and holding objectives, respectively).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

They also cost a ton.

[Castlerook]

@Brotherloki

Berzerkers are only good for one thing, assault. A good opponent can make sure that their units can never get into combat against the berzerkers. Same with the other Cult units, a good opponent can make sure they can never get into a position to make an impact, and the fact is the Cults cost a lot more then the Chaos Marines, so much so that they can't be really be effective as the normal Marines in the book. Its a general rule, specialised units are never as good as standard units, they are only ever used for one purpose, maybe two, but get them into a position their not designed for and the unit is useless. Berzerkers at range, Thousand Sons in close combat, etc.

 

Even with Cult armies, they can be effective but only in a certain style of play, effective because you have the entire army geared towards a certain aspect, Khorne armies are meant to be fast moving and hard hitting, Nurgle armies are the tanks of the list, their meant to take the hits and move forward, but what happens if the Khorne army is forced to foot it across the battlefield because someone was smart enough to take out the transport into the enemy gunline, or if the Nurgle army is taking part in an objective game, the enemy isn't going to care about getting into combat, its about getting the objectives at the end of the game, speed wins over combat in those games.

 

The main focus of 5th Edition is objectives, victory points are really just an afterthought now, kill points are just going back to the old "1VP a unit" system. Chaos armies are about killing and doing it quickly, fine in 4th, but not too useful now, armies built around speed have the advantage in the game now, after all, if you can get the objective on the last turn, and deny it to your enemy, thats what wins games! Chaos armies don't have that now, their objective catching units can't do that now because they aren't troops, units in Rhinos are better used as counterunits.

 

You get what you pay for, and right now with the Chaos codex, you don't get a whole lot.

[incinerator950]

Good thing I only bought 1000 pts of ;), lol

[Lord_Caerolion]

In 4th or 3rd or 2nd Ed you had four distinct cult daemon rule sets and four cult daemon model ranges. That does not exactly invite players to convert their own creatures to use instead of "daemonettes". That is the "advantage" of the current lesser daemons. The rules are blanket stats without being for one specific creature with an available model. Players are now basically required to come up with their own creations.

Oh! I finally see the logic! Instead of the previous codex, which allowed for people to both follow GW example and also create your own stuff, this new codex is so, so much better because you're forced to follow the second route! I get it now! I suppose you also don't like the way we're forced to represent our Chaos Marines with those boring Chaos Marine models they sell. After all, it'd be so much more creative to simply have a "Chaos Guy" profile, with Chaos Marine models to represent a possible interpretation of them, equipped with their generic "Chaos Gun", and wearing their "Chaos armour". After all, who is GW to force us to give our Chaos Guys bolters! I want them to have Ray-guns, but the rules just won't let me. We'd see so many more unique creations! People would finally be forced to create their own force and models, instead of slavishly following the restrictions of a list that tells you what your guys look like.

 

I also love the idea that we can't use God-specific daemons, because not every game is a major battle, but we can apparently mix and match the Gods and Legions, because every army is part of a Black Crusade. Which is it? Massive battles, and so specific daemons and mixed Legions, or small battles, so specific Legions and generic daemons? Can't have it both ways.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Alternatively, Legatus can just go through his codex with a sharpie and cross out all the unit names and wargear names. Then we can have our proper codex and he can still be forced to make stuff up!

[Legatus]

I also love the idea that we can't use God-specific daemons, because not every game is a major battle, but we can apparently mix and match the Gods and Legions, because every army is part of a Black Crusade.

World Eaters Berserkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines fight for whomever will employ them, black crusade not neccessary. The Index Astartes Night Lords specifically explains thet they make use of any Chaos powers they can and will just as likely fight alongside Plague Marines as they will alongside Thousand Sons. So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

[the jeske]

Cool when was it [in fluff] that EC and WE warbands fought in the same sector at the same time without precise order from Abadon ?

[DuskRaider]

blah blah blah... So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

Yeah... Except that it doesn't, at all.

[Smurfalypse]

I also love the idea that we can't use God-specific daemons, because not every game is a major battle, but we can apparently mix and match the Gods and Legions, because every army is part of a Black Crusade.

World Eaters Berserkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines fight for whomever will employ them, black crusade not neccessary. The Index Astartes Night Lords specifically explains thet they make use of any Chaos powers they can and will just as likely fight alongside Plague Marines as they will alongside Thousand Sons. So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

 

Butchered fluff in the new codex ;) The Jeske is correct, only a warlord of unequaled willpower could hope to bring these different powers together under one banner. Not every guy who claims to be a chaos lord, not an aspiring champion, not some wish for humanity to be destroyed. It truly takes someone special to rally the legions and focus their full might against a single target, even Abby has issues with this and there is A LOT of back door deals, back stabbing, and betraying going on between the legions in all of the fluff.

 

The fact that gav thought it was awesome for "Tiny Tim" the chaos lord could rally zerkers with noise marines to wage war on someone is seriously laughable. This flys in the face of ALL fluff previously, not just the previous codexs fluff. In the second ed codex there are specific rules that go along with being to close to the opposite faction, you would actually shot eachother and stuff.

 

Now admittedly i never played rogue trader, i played from second ed. on. 15 years now, and never until now did the different factions <3 eachother, hold hands, and play spin the bottle on their weekends. Just my input :)

[Castlerook]

I also love the idea that we can't use God-specific daemons, because not every game is a major battle, but we can apparently mix and match the Gods and Legions, because every army is part of a Black Crusade.

World Eaters Berserkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines fight for whomever will employ them, black crusade not neccessary. The Index Astartes Night Lords specifically explains thet they make use of any Chaos powers they can and will just as likely fight alongside Plague Marines as they will alongside Thousand Sons. So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

The difference is, the Night Lords are the mercenaries of the original Legions, they want wealth, material power and the joy of sneaking into a town and making people crap themselves to death in fear. Theres a difference between being in it for the money and doing something to worship you patron. Red Corsairs are the same, its the wealth they want, not to get a couple of tentacle arms, or to be a Daemon Prince. The Night Lords use Chaos, but in a strange way, the way they use it sets them apart from every other Legion/Renegade force in existance. They hate Chaos and will never be truly a part of it, but at the same time they will summon the likes of Furies because they, like the Night Lords, are an amalgamation of the different powers (or perhaps a lesser Power). Thats something the book doesn't seem to grasp, that, yes, there are lesser Powers in the Warp, but even together those Powers are nothing compared to the Big Four. Its the Chaos Gods who have the greatest influence, both on their followers and the rest of the Galaxy, and the book simply doesn't convey that properly, right now its Codex: Renegades, not Codex: Traitor Legions. The book focuses on the Renegades with barely a passing mention about the Legions. Its taking the approach of the newly turned Chapter finding about the Gods and thinking to itself "Hey, the big angry one might be fun to work with!" or "hmmmmmm, the big pink one seems to be quite good and seems like fun, lets go with he/she/whatever it is".

 

And therein lies the problem, the codex gets people thinking that the Chaos Gods are helpers, give them a little praise and viola, you got power. Thats not how it works, you don't work with the Gods, you serve them, you don't ask them for help or power, you hope they pay enough attention and are pleased enough with you to grant you a boon and you hope that boon doesn't turn out to be a curse. The Chaos Gods are fickle beings who care more about their own advancement in the Great Game then about their lowly followers. Even if someone becomes a Daemon Prince, it doesn't make them an equal to the Gods, it just makes them a slightly better in that cosmic chess game the Gods play, instead of a Pawn, the Prince is now a Rook or a Knight, nothing more. And yet, the book doesn't convey this. Its gone from the Grim Dark Gothicness we all love to a spiky version of something like Pokemon, why have a dozen or so daemons to choose from when you can make you own "Slime toads of Nurgle, I choose you!", "Putty Ball of Tzeentch, go!. Where once the Daemons were a facet of their parent god, they are now mere shadows of a hyperactive person's mind, a person who can't accept the fact that the original daemons were the best (Come on, who can turn down a unit of power weapon armed daemons in favour of a relatively weak daemons with nothing special about them?). The Generic Daemons are just another example of them realising they messed up the book and threw in something shiny to distract people.

 

And about the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters, one word........Skalanthrax. After that, theres no way the two Legions would work together unless it was with an extremely powerful Chaos Lord or Abaddon gearing up for a Black Crusade. The Cults hate each other too much to actually work together bar for the most apocalyptic wars, like Black Crusades, or are you just choosing to selectively ignore the fluff?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

blah blah blah... So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

Yeah... Except that it doesn't, at all.

I have a Nightlords playing friend who's pretty much decided to go with a World Eaters army because he's tired of not being able to play to his fluff as well as he used to.

[chillin]

blah blah blah... So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

Yeah... Except that it doesn't, at all.

 

Yeah, that..and there are no "NL's" in the new codex, so how is it that they wk out so well ?

They must wk out better now that they don't have Night Vision & Stealth Adept vet skills and don't get an xtra fast attack choice and can't take two units of "hit and run" raptors and can't cause fear and don't have a page of gifts and wargear.

[DrDoom]

I also love the idea that we can't use God-specific daemons, because not every game is a major battle, but we can apparently mix and match the Gods and Legions, because every army is part of a Black Crusade.

World Eaters Berserkers and Emperor's Children Noise Marines fight for whomever will employ them, black crusade not neccessary. The Index Astartes Night Lords specifically explains thet they make use of any Chaos powers they can and will just as likely fight alongside Plague Marines as they will alongside Thousand Sons. So at least for the Night Lords the current Codex works out pretty good.

 

 

Butchered fluff in the new codex ^_^ The Jeske is correct, only a warlord of unequaled willpower could hope to bring these different powers together under one banner. Not every guy who claims to be a chaos lord, not an aspiring champion, not some wish for humanity to be destroyed. It truly takes someone special to rally the legions and focus their full might against a single target, even Abby has issues with this and there is A LOT of back door deals, back stabbing, and betraying going on between the legions in all of the fluff.

 

The fact that gav thought it was awesome for "Tiny Tim" the chaos lord could rally zerkers with noise marines to wage war on someone is seriously laughable. This flys in the face of ALL fluff previously, not just the previous codexs fluff. In the second ed codex there are specific rules that go along with being to close to the opposite faction, you would actually shot eachother and stuff.

 

Now admittedly i never played rogue trader, i played from second ed. on. 15 years now, and never until now did the different factions <3 eachother, hold hands, and play spin the bottle on their weekends. Just my input :P

 

 

 

Actually the Animosity rules only applied to Daemons, and then only if they got within 12" of each other. You could freely mix and match cult troops. For that matter you cold also do it with the third edition codex. With the 3.5 edition codex any Undivided Chaos Lord, not just Abaddon, could use any cult troops.

[chillin]

With the 3.5 edition codex any Undivided Chaos Lord, not just Abaddon, could use any cult troops.

 

Yes, but now, evidently khorne brzrkrs will gladly let a prancing, transsexual, slanny DP boss them around.

Last I heard they (GW) thought it was important in FB to give people a reason to take undidvided characters, I wish they would develope that idea in 40k again.

[DrDoom]

With the 3.5 edition codex any Undivided Chaos Lord, not just Abaddon, could use any cult troops.

 

Yes, but now, evidently khorne brzrkrs will gladly let a prancing, transsexual, slanny DP boss them around.

Last I heard they (GW) thought it was important in FB to give people a reason to take undidvided characters, I wish they would develope that idea in 40k again.

 

 

Just like they did during the second ed. codex and the first third ed. codex. Its not a new thing, it just didn't happen with the last codex.

 

Having said that, I kind of prefer the way they did it in the last codex. Like you said it would encourage people to take Undivided IC's. I rarely take Undidvided lords or DPs now.

[the jeske]

Just like they did during the second ed. codex and the first third ed. codex.

yeah and thats probally why in 2ed lords were runing around with 2-3 marks at the same time [and were actually better then abadon] and the third ed JJ dex was the one see as one of the worse dexs in 3ed . that does make sense.

 

 

You could freely mix and match cult troops.

:cough: yeah when you were using BL rules . you couldnt take cult units with opposit marks to your lord in a non BL list.

[incinerator950]

Last I checked FB is getting less screwed over in gaming terms then 40k is.

[Epic Thoughts]

While there are several good points, both in favor of Mr. Thorpe, and against him, I feel one thing C;CSM lacks is special characters that are 1) fairly priced, and, 2) capable of being more than expensive bullet sponges.

[incinerator950]

I feel as they are behind times and need to be redone to fit 5th edition, except Khârn, don't touch him because they'll most likely Nerf him or break him.

[Crusader169]

Do you think it would have been better if they left us with our previous codex :devil: and make us wait like Dark Eldar i kinda do oh well. Such is GW

 

As usual just my opinion on the subject :(

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Do you think it would have been better if they left us with our previous codex :devil: and make us wait like Dark Eldar i kinda do oh well. Such is GW

 

As usual just my opinion on the subject :(

 

Yes. Much better. It would need a FAQ though.

[chillin]

Do you think it would have been better if they left us with our previous codex :huh: i kinda do oh well. Such is GW

 

You mean the codex with legion rules, god specific (and undidvided) daemons, customizable characters, tons of war gear & gifts and vet skills, soul and depth...who wants all that ? <_<

All that stuff makes it too complicated and confuses me with options, I need it "simplified" because I'm stupid

[Lay]

Do you think it would have been better if they left us with our previous codex :(

Never stopped using the old one. Counts-as current codex.