Gav Thorpe on Codex Chaos

[Prot]

You know ever since I made my larger post here about Gav's 'Chaos is fine' article.... And re-reading many of the posts here I came to realize something I said in my own post is true.... We have basically..... three types of gamers: 1 Power Gamers, 2 Fluff Builders, and 3 Competitive Players which are a combined 1&2.

 

And I started thinking of how many people I know who play different armies and are happy with them.... And you know what? They aren't winning ALL the time but they have flexible codexes and personally I think that's what we're missing most. I know some of you will post about this awesome 'daemon' army you've made, but get real. The truth is you could tear out about 3/4 of our codex and flush it down the toilet.

 

THIS is what gets me. You look at the potential lists Jeske points to out of the Marines codex. They are all very competitive, AND they are all vastly different and used different mechanisms for success. Look at Orks... again it's not just that they are nasty good, they can make a half dozen builds that potentially can beat anyone AND they can be from all over the codex.

 

At the end of the day, I think it's this part that bugs me most. And that lack of variety also lead to the idea of the death of the Legion, because that flexibility is gone.

 

I was talking about this whole subject with a friend, and something kind of turned my stomache like eating that 2 week old burito in the fridge; the realization we probably won't get a codex treatment for another... year or two!

 

Think about it. If you look at the rotation, we are behind: Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar (rumour but still), Eldar, Black Templars, Nids, Blood Angels... Wow. We are screwed for a long time. The only possibility I see is if we got a supplementary 'Legion' codex inserted in there. Plus we know GW won't do IA articles again. (man I miss those...)

 

I guess I'll go work on my Raven Guard now. lol

[incinerator950]

You know ever since I made my larger post here about Gav's 'Chaos is fine' article.... And re-reading many of the posts here I came to realize something I said in my own post is true.... We have basically..... three types of gamers: 1 Power Gamers, 2 Fluff Builders, and 3 Competitive Players which are a combined 1&2.

 

And I started thinking of how many people I know who play different armies and are happy with them.... And you know what? They aren't winning ALL the time but they have flexible codexes and personally I think that's what we're missing most. I know some of you will post about this awesome 'daemon' army you've made, but get real. The truth is you could tear out about 3/4 of our codex and flush it down the toilet.

 

THIS is what gets me. You look at the potential lists Jeske points to out of the Marines codex. They are all very competitive, AND they are all vastly different and used different mechanisms for success. Look at Orks... again it's not just that they are nasty good, they can make a half dozen builds that potentially can beat anyone AND they can be from all over the codex.

 

At the end of the day, I think it's this part that bugs me most. And that lack of variety also lead to the idea of the death of the Legion, because that flexibility is gone.

 

I was talking about this whole subject with a friend, and something kind of turned my stomache like eating that 2 week old burito in the fridge; the realization we probably won't get a codex treatment for another... year or two!

 

Think about it. If you look at the rotation, we are behind: Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar (rumour but still), Eldar, Black Templars, Nids, Blood Angels... Wow. We are screwed for a long time. The only possibility I see is if we got a supplementary 'Legion' codex inserted in there. Plus we know GW won't do IA articles again. (man I miss those...)

 

I guess I'll go work on my Raven Guard now. lol

 

I'm already trying to figure out a way to sell my army. I want to get some Epic A Titans, or get a Nineball seraph model to work on.

[Castlerook]

IA articles, the best thing Games-Workshop ever came up with. Considering that at the time most of the fluff the armies got in the codexes could fill a stamp the articles were a godsend. And even though the varient lists they gave weren't perfect, they helped add to the flavour of the legions (lots of fast attack wasn't the best for the Night Lords, stealth adept was far more in keeping with their abilities, but thats beside the point), the articles themselves provided a great insight to the Legions (both loyalist and Traitor).

 

The only real advantage the current codex has over the previous ones is the amount of fluff it has. Even then the fluff is nothing new, and is at times sub-par, and a little vindictive "Hey, I'm was a Son of Guilliman, and now I'm a Renegade! RARRRRR! or the classic [/sarcasm] "Huron Blackheart is such a badass he took a Space Wolf battleship almost singlehandedly!. Quantity is one thing, quailty is something else entirely, the current book has one, and is missing the other, the one people would consider the more important.

[incinerator950]

IA articles, the best thing Games-Workshop ever came up with. Considering that at the time most of the fluff the armies got in the codexes could fill a stamp the articles were a godsend. And even though the varient lists they gave weren't perfect, they helped add to the flavour of the legions (lots of fast attack wasn't the best for the Night Lords, stealth adept was far more in keeping with their abilities, but thats beside the point), the articles themselves provided a great insight to the Legions (both loyalist and Traitor).

 

The only real advantage the current codex has over the previous ones is the amount of fluff it has. Even then the fluff is nothing new, and is at times sub-par, and a little vindictive "Hey, I'm was a Son of Guilliman, and now I'm a Renegade! RARRRRR! or the classic [/sarcasm] "Huron Blackheart is such a badass he took a Space Wolf battleship almost singlehandedly!. Quantity is one thing, quailty is something else entirely, the current book has one, and is missing the other, the one people would consider the more important.

 

Quantity of what, fail?

[Castlerook]

Probably.

 

Might even upgrade it to epic fail.

[incinerator950]

Abbadon has that already, if we upgrade the codex to epic fail we would have to invent an entire new level of fail.

 

No we can not use a Bush level of fail

[Legatus]

Gee, I have only sporadic internet access at the moment, so going through some of the posts almost sems like necro posting...

 

Anyway, I have seen the point about how the current (gav) Codex Chaos Space Marines is completely ignoring the Legions in favour of warband and renegade armies. As it happens, I have been browsing through the different Codices this morning, and this is what I found:

 

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size. Each is led by a Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

 

That quote is from the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 17. Now, I now exactly how most of you wll react to a 4th Edition Codex quote, but as it turns out, that particular quote, and I think almost the entire section, is taken straight from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos. I do not own an english version of the 2nd Editon Codex, but it contains the same line, perhaps even verbatim, on page 19. Even if you still would have preferred more of a focus on the original Legions, at least it would be fair not to lay all the blame of Gav.

 

 

Now some minor points, though as the discussion has progressed I feel they are not significant anymore.

 

Exactly, and that is why in the 3.5 codex you could take bezerkers and noise marines... under an undivided lord. You couldn't have a khorne DP with noise marines. He would kill them before fighting the enemy.

 

In the 4th ed dex you can have Khârn fighting alongside EC. The last time that happened... he was killing them. And the time before that... Horus was still alive and ordered the two legions to work together. Its unfluffy, shouldn't happen.

And Space Marine armies should not be led by two Chapter Masters, Eldar armies should not have two Avatars, Dark Angels armies should not ally with Inquisition forces. I am notg happy with all the choices the different Codices permit, but at least I will not make such choices for my forces.

 

I played Night Lords in 2nd Edition. I played Night Lords in 3rd Edition. I played them with the 3.5 Codex and I still play them with the 4th Edition Codex.

Ok how do you play them?

Undivided. The Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines with no particular deity affiliation. The "terror" aspect is fluff, which for me adds to the feeling of the army. Though I do like to use a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos as my usual HQ, and I like to think that the possibility that my opponents expensive Characters are turned into Spawn perhaps makes him a little uneasy. :D

 

Alpha Legion kind of need infiltrating and/or cultists to be fluffy.

That's not what I get out of their Index Astartes. The Alpha Legion plans their attacks very carefully and prepares them years or decades ahead with insurgents and spies, but when they are finally attacking, what they do is striking from as many dfferent angles as possible. To me that means "as many different types of choices as possible", meaning deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list. How effective such a generalised list would be is a different question, but that is how the Alpha Legion would attack.

 

Iron Warriors kind of need heavy firepower to be fluffy.

I assume the current Codex includes the Vindicator mainly to allow players to construct Iron Warriors forces. That the Dreads have been moved to Elite also enables players to include multiple heavier vehicles.

 

Word Bearers kind of need good demons to take, and more than 1 option.

I do agree that one singel daemon type would be a bit boring for them, but then I also think that the Word bearers are a Chaos Space Marines Legion, and not a horde of daemons that are supported by some Chaos Space Marines (i.e. the list should focus on Marines. Marines with some Daemons.) But I also stand by my opinion that daemons are not easily summoned, and even the Word Bearers will fight often without any daemons at all.

 

Well, I'm glad to hear that because of the fact that I started playing Warhammer when 3.5 was released, I can never, ever call myself a fluffy Chaos player. I guess all I'm after is the cheese. I never knew that playing Chaos since 2nd Edition was a prerequisite for being a fluff gamer. Now that I know better, I'd better let my inherent beardiness take over!

You can still be a fluffy player. But when you (as an example, I did not check whether you did) claim that after going from 3.5 to 4th it is now not possible anymore to play proper Legion armies and someone who played Chaos prior to 3.5 claims that you could play Legions in 2nd and 3rd so you can still play them in 4th, then perhaps you could consider that the 3.5 Codex was but one incarnation of Chaos Space Marine rule sets, and that there have been others and there will be others.

 

"Night Vision" is not what makes a model a Night Lord. "Infiltration" is not what makes a model an Alpha Legionaire. Even if the Legions are getting their own rules in a future book, their special rules might be different. Currently, as it had been in previous editions, an Alpha Legion Marine has the same stats and rules as a Night Lords Marine. But their armies are probably going to be different. It is up to the player to cinstruct that army.

 

I can understand that you liked the 3.5 Codex. I liked the 3.5 Codex. But I also like the 4th Codex.

[the jeske]

That quote is from the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 17. Now, I now exactly how most of you wll react to a 4th Edition Codex quote, but as it turns out, that particular quote, and I think almost the entire section, is taken straight from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos. I do not own an english version of the 2nd Editon Codex, but it contains the same line, perhaps even verbatim, on page 19. Even if you still would have preferred more of a focus on the original Legions, at least it would be fair not to lay all the blame of Gav.

the dex is full of copy past from 2ed and even 3ed dex , but that doesnt make it good. Also remember you cant really compare 2ed with even 3ed. 2ed was a skirmish game offten played with no more then 20/30 models[save the nids who had they 200 hormagaunt builds ] and as Chambers wrote more then a few times , they wanted to put the legion rules in to the 2ed dex, but there just wasnt enough space for that. they had to fit 2 books in to one and that is why a lot of stuff got left out.

 

. To me that means "as many different types of choices as possible", meaning deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list. How effective such a generalised list would be is a different question, but that is how the Alpha Legion would attack.

ah so chosen suck, dreads suck , deep strike works only in termicid form , havocks are sub par to oblits and even defilers . So an effective and fluffy AL army would look something like this 2 lords 4 csm squads in rhinos 2x3 man termicid squads and oblits. at the same time a WB army list would be 2 lords 4 csm units and 2x3 termicid +4 oblits ..... no cults , all nice and fluffy :P .

ah by the way AL operates inside the empire and they dont really use dreadnoughts as they are to hard to control and hard to pick up after battle.

 

Currently, as it had been in previous editions, an Alpha Legion Marine has the same stats and rules as a Night Lords Marine.

lets see . 2ed dex . legion rules not there because there was no place to fit them in . chaos more or less a way to paint your models. 3ed dex .The JJ dex hated by chaos players , bland compering to the 2ed dex , no rules save for cult units [with nice stuff like khorn psykers ;)] . So bad GW actually started doing legion rules for chaos , because chaos was selling bad . unlike the thorpe dex this one didnt have good build . 3.5th dex the legion dex . 4th dex made to feel the void of orks when ork model range was not ready. no legion rules again [but thorpe says they did the dex with "there be a legion dex in the future" in his mind] , legions are again a way to pain models save for core cult units.

[Castlerook]

I think we're all starting to fail to see the wood from the trees. The problem isn't in the details, their merely symptoms of the bigger problem, and it can be summed up in one question; what has the Chaos Space Marine codex added to the hobby?

 

In a word, nothing.

 

A codex is supposed to add to the background of an army, be it through new units, characters, vehicles or fluff, their main purpose is to expand the hobby. The problem here though is that the current codex has added nothing. Every bit of fluff has been mentioned before or is a variation on another story. There are no new units or rules, its all rehashed stuff they've tried to recycle. Before anyone raises any points, lets forget tactics and gameplay, and lets just take a look at the supposed "new stuff".

Renegades - The fluff and concept for Renegades has existed since 1988 with the White Dwarf article on the Badab war. I didn't even own the Codex: Chaos book (2nd Edition) and I knew about Renegades when I started the hobby.

Huron Blackheart - Again, he has been knocking around the 40k universe since 1988, and did have rules in the 2nd edition book.

Lesser Daemons - generalised Furies with their wings clipped.

 

Those are just 3 examples of the "new" ideas they've brought into the book, even though the likes of Huron was nearly 20 years old. I mean Chaos armies can't even create specialised armies dictated by their leaders, not counting Cults, Ork Warbosses can have a unit of Nobs or Meganobz as a Troop choice, a Big Mek can allow a single Deffdread as a Troop choice. Space Marines Captains on bikes can field biker armies, which is fair enough considering the 8th Company of a Chapter often trains its warriors in all forms of rapid warfare. Should a Chaos army allow bikers to be troops if a Lord is on a bike? Probably not, but the concept is great. These themed armies, for want of a better description, add something to their respective armies, and to the hobby.

 

So the idea of biker armies and varient armies based on characters isn't a new concept, I never said they were, but like I just said, they add something to the hobby. The current Chaos Codex adds nothing, nothing which hasn't been said before, or has been seen before. And that is what the real problem is.

[IronWinds]

"Little remains of the organised Legions that waged war upon ancient Terra. Millennia of jealousies and infighting have broken down the Legions into companies and warbands of varying size. Each is led by a Captain or Champion of Chaos who pursues his own destiny."

 

So instead of 10,000 BL attacking something together, its more like 100 smaller groups, each with 100 guys. Does this change the fact that the 100 guys... are STILL Black Legion. This is how MOST chaos armies are played. 30-50 marines led by a champion of chaos(lord, sorcerer, DP). Each 100 man army would still have the characteristics of the legion as a whole though. 100 AL are still going to fight like alpha legionairs.

 

Undivided. The Night Lords are Chaos Space Marines with no particular deity affiliation. The "terror" aspect is fluff, which for me adds to the feeling of the army. Though I do like to use a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos as my usual HQ, and I like to think that the possibility that my opponents expensive Characters are turned into Spawn perhaps makes him a little uneasy.

 

So they could be any army? The point was that you said you were still playing NLs. No, your playing vanilla chaos in NL colors. There is nothing NL about the army. I think thats why people have a problem with the new codex.

 

The Alpha Legion plans their attacks very carefully and prepares them years or decades ahead with insurgents and spies, but when they are finally attacking, what they do is striking from as many dfferent angles as possible. To me that means "as many different types of choices as possible", meaning deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list. How effective such a generalised list would be is a different question, but that is how the Alpha Legion would attack.

 

Many different angels = many different options :D . I can DS obliterators and termicide squads everywhere and have a ton of angels to attack from, but I'm only using 2 units. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. They plan for decades with insurgents(cultists).... Hmmm planning for decades you should know your way around, and to me attacking from different directions would be like flanking... which infiltrate does allow you to do, and cultists kind of fit with insurgents.

 

I assume the current Codex includes the Vindicator mainly to allow players to construct Iron Warriors forces. That the Dreads have been moved to Elite also enables players to include multiple heavier vehicles.

 

Dreads don't count for anything, under the current rules they are close to unplayable. Vindicators are nice.... but I don't think that makes or breaks an IW army. BL can take 3 vindicators, does that instantly make them IWs? No.

[Legatus]

ah so chosen suck, dreads suck , deep strike works only in termicid form , havocks are sub par to oblits and even defilers . So an effective and fluffy AL army would look something like this 2 lords 4 csm squads in rhinos 2x3 man termicid squads and oblits. at the same time a WB army list would be 2 lords 4 csm units and 2x3 termicid +4 oblits ..... no cults , all nice and fluffy .

I did say that effectivenes is a different issue. In your desire to have a hard hitting army you abandoned the "Alpha Legion" feel, which is your choice as a player. Are we discussing whether "Alpha Legion" armies are effective or whether it is possible to create Alpha Legion armies?

 

So instead of 10,000 BL attacking something together, its more like 100 smaller groups, each with 100 guys. Does this change the fact that the 100 guys... are STILL Black Legion. This is how MOST chaos armies are played. 30-50 marines led by a champion of chaos(lord, sorcerer, DP). Each 100 man army would still have the characteristics of the legion as a whole though. 100 AL are still going to fight like alpha legionairs.

Since each Warband is individually governed and each Lord has his own ambitions there is a lot of room to include smaller cult units or even units into such a group, or even alliances between two larger groups. There is no identity of "we are the X Legion" that need to be preserved, since the Legions are not coherent forces anymore.

 

So they could be any army? The point was that you said you were still playing NLs. No, your playing vanilla chaos in NL colors.

And people cannot play Iron Hands, Flesh tearers or Blood Ravens anymore, since they do not get any special rules? Now an Iron Hands painted army is simply vanilla Ultramarines in a different colour?

 

Many different angels = many different options . I can DS obliterators and termicide squads everywhere and have a ton of angels to attack from, but I'm only using 2 units. Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. They plan for decades with insurgents(cultists).... Hmmm planning for decades you should know your way around, and to me attacking from different directions would be like flanking... which infiltrate does allow you to do, and cultists kind of fit with insurgents.

I am sorry if I have been inclear. With "angles" I did mean methods of attack, not directions, that's why I tries to list different unit types.

 

Also, the Alhpa Legion is worse off than Night Lords as far as viability of special rules goes. At least the Night Lords doctrine would work against Imperials, Tau and Craftworld Eldar (not against anyone else), while the Alpha Legion Ddoctrines would only work against Imperial Guard and Tau.

Orks, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Eldar would not be paticularly affected by the Night Lords doctrines, and in the case of the Alpha Legion the Craftworld Eldar would not either, so you do got to question why the whole army should get a special rule that would only realistically work against two or three out of 9 Factions.

 

Dreads don't count for anything, under the current rules they are close to unplayable. Vindicators are nice.... but I don't think that makes or breaks an IW army. BL can take 3 vindicators, does that instantly make them IWs? No.

It is left to the player to construct "Black Legion" or "Iron Warriors" lists with the Codex. It is the same as in Codex Eldar, Codex Space Marines, Codex Orks and Codex Imperial Guard, where all the previously distinct lists have beenmerged into one.

 

Space Marines have gotten Masters of the Forge, Assault Veterans and Troop Bikes to represent different Chapters.

 

Eldar have gotten Pathfinders, Troop Jetbikes and Troop War Walkers to represent different Craftworlds.

 

Orks have gotten Troop Trukks, Weird Boys and unlimited Looted Tanks to represent different Clans.

 

Imperials have gotten Troop Veterans, Chimera Transports for all and Tanks in squadrons to represent different Regiments.

 

Chaos Marines have gotten Cult units as Troops, Vindicators, unlimited Raptors, unlimited Obliterators and unlimited daemons to represent different legions.

 

With all these new Codices all the different groups are represented by how you construct your force and by what choices you take. The Pathfinders are a speciality of Alaitoc, but now everyone can have them as well. Bikes as Troops are a speciality of the White Scars, but now everyone else can take them as well. A lot of looted Tanks are a speciality of the Blood Axes. Vindicators are a speciality of the Iron Warriors.

 

I can understand if you are perhaps unhappy with the choices you are given. But that Vindicators are now a generic choice that can also be taken by everyone else is just the way Codices are done in 5th Edition. It is now one single list that includes a lot of new choices that were previously only available to a particular variant list. You can still play Iron Warriors or Night Lords, just as you can still play Alaitoc or Biel-Tan, or Salamanders or Raven Guard, or Goffs or Blood Axes.

 

 

Edit:

I think we're all starting to fail to see the wood from the trees. The problem isn't in the details, their merely symptoms of the bigger problem, and it can be summed up in one question; what has the Chaos Space Marine codex added to the hobby?

 

In a word, nothing.

This Codex, and I think that may have been what Gav was trying to say, does not present the player with 9 Legions to chose from. This Codex, much like the other 5th dition Codices as I have described above, gives the player the tools and rules to create a "Chaos Space Marine" army, and it is then up entirely to the player whyt kind of army he wants to construct. He can play one of the classic Legions, and theme his list accordingly, or he can create a warband or his own renegade Chapter, or focus entirely on which units are the most effective. You could do all that with the 3.5 Codex, but with his distinct lists to chose from it did not exactly encourage that kind of approach. I do think the current Codex is a bit more open and encouraging to DIY, even though I did wish they would have included a decent description of the classic Legions.

[Castlerook]

Legatus, don't be wishy-washy with your responses, you describe how the chaos book can field legions well enough, and then go on to say how the book should have more legion stuff. Make up you mind.

 

And the truth is, there is nothing new in the Chaos Space Marine Codex, no new information, no new units, nothing. Renegades have been around since Rogue Trader, and there has always been the option to field renegades with any Chaos Codex, so thats not new. Including a set of rules in 2nd edition Huron Blackheart has always been around. To all intents and purposes, the current book is a poor shadow of previous books. The amount taken away far exceeds what has been added (though its easy to beat nothing).

 

Plain and simple. Just like the codex (although I'd call it a simpleton).

[Lay]

That's not what I get out of their Index Astartes. The Alpha Legion plans their attacks very carefully and prepares them years or decades ahead with insurgents and spies, but when they are finally attacking, what they do is striking from as many dfferent angles as possible. To me that means "as many different types of choices as possible", meaning deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list. How effective such a generalised list would be is a different question, but that is how the Alpha Legion would attack.

ah so chosen suck, dreads suck , deep strike works only in termicid form , havocks are sub par to oblits and even defilers . So an effective and fluffy AL army would look something like this 2 lords 4 csm squads in rhinos 2x3 man termicid squads and oblits. at the same time a WB army list would be 2 lords 4 csm units and 2x3 termicid +4 oblits ..... no cults , all nice and fluffy .

I did say that effectivenes is a different issue. In your desire to have a hard hitting army you abandoned the "Alpha Legion" feel, which is your choice as a player. Are we discussing whether "Alpha Legion" armies are effective or whether it is possible to create Alpha Legion armies?

I'd rather decide for myself if and how many infiltrators and cultists my fluffy Alpha Legion army contains.

 

Also "deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list"? Would have worked in 3.5.

 

And people cannot play Iron Hands, Flesh tearers or Blood Ravens anymore, since they do not get any special rules? Now an Iron Hands painted army is simply vanilla Ultramarines in a different colour?

If people demand rules for these armies, more power to them. Who are we to say otherwise?

 

It is left to the player to construct "Black Legion" or "Iron Warriors" lists with the Codex.

I was confronted with the same choices with 3.5. No, wait - I had more interesting choices. Yup.

[the jeske]

I did say that effectivenes is a different issue. In your desire to have a hard hitting army you abandoned the "Alpha Legion" feel, which is your choice as a player. Are we discussing whether "Alpha Legion" armies are effective or whether it is possible to create Alpha Legion armies?

AL were not hard hiting they were tier 2 ,most good builds in 4th ed used infiltration units , if you lost the deployment of those units the whole AL army offten ended up almost in its deployment [what means it was a demonless, oblit less , no cult unit version of the plague marine infiltration build or BL mecha list only without transports]. Yes maybe this was a bad example from me , I never used cultists in an AL list , but a lot of people did . 3-4 unit of culitists 2 mini max 2 units of havocks 2 Lt with speed and maybe one 6 man double plas unit [or demons] , people played lists like that. right now not only are a lot of the models illegal or make no sense[demons , minimax,Lts, culitists ] , but the game play is gone too. A 4 csm army that takes chosen instead of termicid does not work much different then the same build , but with terminators [who are a better choice] . at least at plan level , because at actuall game play level chosen are a bad overcosted unit. one could as well use a normal csm squad in a rhino and make it drive up another flank and it would work better.

 

Since each Warband is individually governed and each Lord has his own ambitions there is a lot of room to include smaller cult units or even units into such a group, or even alliances between two larger groups. There is no identity of "we are the X Legion" that need to be preserved, since the Legions are not coherent forces anymore.

what is not true for WB [one legion everyone does what lorgar tells them to do] , BL [everyone does what abadon tells them to do]. NL still have their high command and work as one [and yes they do merc work , but NL did not break up not even after the heresy and legion wars it is in the night hunter fluff]. 1ksons all work for magnus , save for ahrimans cult and even he when ordered by his god , still obeys magnus[see 13th crusade] . most of the DG still work for mortation [they also do nothing most of the time , but that is a different thing ] . IW have inner civil wars , but perturbo still rules them all. he orders they obey . The only legions that broke up are the WE and EC and AL , but that is how alfarius made them. they always even before the heresy operated as separate cells .

You can still play Iron Warriors or Night Lords, just as you can still play Alaitoc or Biel-Tan, or Salamanders or Raven Guard, or Goffs or Blood Axes.

only the difference is that an"alaitoc" army and a "sim-hanaan" army will be different . A NL army is going to be identical to a AL army and to a WB army and even a BL army if someone decided to not use cult units. A sm army with bikes as troops is drastcilly different then an army build lets say vulkan [but it could be just as well a normal hq] . it has different play style . I mean really it uses freaking different models in its build. almost no chaos army [and I mean before the siege marines and assault veterans "counts as" madness] looks different from a different one . Forcing people to use this dex is as if GW made codex sm and said-guys as of right now codex SW/BT/BA/DA are illegal for play , use the sm dex . I mean you have BA veteran assault sm there[vanguard] , ravenwing[with a biker cpt] etc- and those 4 would still be fewer then chaos players , because remember 3.5 chaos dex had 8 different legion armies + options to build renegade warbands.

This Codex, much like the other 5th dition Codices as I have described above, gives the player the tools and rules to create a "Chaos Space Marine" army, and it is then up entirely to the player whyt kind of army he wants to construct.

ok m8 once again. how is it up to the player to contruct this army when there is one freaking build to play with. orks have more lists, sm have more lists , sw have more lists , hell even DA and BA who have craptastic dexs [or WD articles] have a few builds each[even if few of them are tier 2] . IG , tons of builds . And this is just 1500 pts and chaos has one way to play and two builds to pick from LR rush or mech . how is that "leting people pick what they want". If I tell someone he can either eat crap or sand or this rather bland soup am not giving him 3 options to pick from.

You could do all that with the 3.5 Codex, but with his distinct lists to chose from it did not exactly encourage that kind of approach

that would make sense if BL [specially khorn] was the best chaos army in 4th.

also the new dex does not encourage people to play BL or "random renegade warband". that would be true if playing in different way was viable . Playing a true to fluff[of course here we can argue because techniclly speaking the new dex has close to 0 fluff on legions ,so maybe they dont longer exist] legion army is in most cases impossible.

I do think the current Codex is a bit more open and encouraging to DIY, even though I did wish they would have included a decent description of the classic Legions.

how is the new dex more open for DIY? everything you can do in the Gav dex could be done in the 3.5 dex . there is two things "new" the codex gave chaos players. no 0-1 limit on demon princes[totally makes sense fluffwise and really "helps" the other HQ choice being viable] and unlimited vindicators [no wonder , considering we got 0 new units and almost 0 new models ] .

[Grey Mage]

*Snip* Alot of good points *snip*

 

Well the Jeske and I will dissagree to the eye and back on what units are viable and how, I have to agree with him on most of his arguments here- Chaos players lost alot, and got absolutely nothing fluff in return.

 

Indeed.... as far as I can tell from helping my chaos friends with their lists and comparing the 3.5 list to this the only thing you can do now that you couldnt have done before is have a slaaneshi lord leading any cult troop he wants because they through rivalry out on its hind end. I cant see that as enhancing the "fluff" or being a strong argument to opening up options.

 

Ive read Thorpes blog on this matter, and it comes off to me as "stop yelling at me, I had the best of intentions and things didnt quite go how I wanted".

 

Best intentions or no, its still a crime.

[incinerator950]

Better comparison would be how you get 6 land raiders in a non apoc game.

[Castlerook]

Jeske, great examples of the "new" stuff the codex gave us..... A second Daemon prince and the option for more tanks of an established one which has been around for 10 years. (Not being sarcastic, just stating that the new stuff isn't new, they just took the restrictions away, means we can take more of them).

 

The two armies a Chaos army can have is one with Cults and the one without, Daemons can't even add anything different BECAUSE. THEIR. THE. SAME. The marks and icons are almost as useful as a paper shield, their bonus disappears as soon as the icon bearer dies. Can anyone actually say different and give core lists that aren't just Chaos Marines, Cult units and Daemons or the Obliterator/Lash Spam armies?

 

Lets look at one of the other armies and their builds, the Imperial Guard.

*"The Infantry company", lots of infantry making up the Troops, conscripts to tie up the enemy, heavy weapons or special weapon squads bringing more firepower to bear then the heavy support options of other armies. Add Chenkov to the platoon and you have a conscript force which can come back again and again and wear down the enemy through a battle of attrition.

*"The Mechanised Company", fast moving, nearly every tank has 2 heavy weapons, meaning you can have a mobile army able to bring more weapons to bear then most armies.

*"The Veteran Force", mounted in Chimeras or Valkryies or even on foot, a Veteran army can be quite devastating. They can also take a lot of damage if they take the Grenadiers doctrine or can do a huge amount of damage with Demolitions (Believe me, used right, demolition charges can nearly wipe out a Space Marine squad). The potential for 18 sniper rifles or meltaguns can destroy a battle plan. Mount them in Valkyries or Vendettas and you can take out the heaviest units in a Chaos Space Marine army, in any army.

*"The Penal Legion", quite possibly the scariest Troop only army in the game, a one-in-three chance for 6 units being either rapid shooting beasts, combat monsters that would put the most fercious Berzerker to shame or Rending fighters. Not only that, but their Scouts and Stubborn too. The Thousand Sons heavy armour was the one I feared in 4th edition 40K.....The Penal Legion is what scares me now.

*"The Armoured company", the potential for 9 battle tanks firing ordnance and and a heavy weapon after moving, with a couple of Veteran Squads to capture objectives, means you can have a hard hitting army that can dish out a lot of punishment. Considering the amount of damage a single tank can take, multiply that by up to 9 tanks and you are going to end up with a few tanks left at the end of the game. Add in a Punisher or two (even if the AP is rubbish, the sheer amount of saves your oppenent has to make means more then a few models will die a turn). Add Knight Commander Pask, and you can have the perfect armour hunter, be it vehicle or powered.

*"The Artillery Company", same with the Armoured company, but you can stay back, obilterator the enemy when they get on an objective, grab them in the last couple of turns. The Basilisk and the Medusa were made to kill Marines.

*"Assault Armour Company", the Hellhound, Devil Dog and Banewolf, 9 of them, can be devastating for certain targets, the Melta Cannons of the Devil Dog can destroy terminators and obliterators, even land raiders hate the Devil Dog.

*The "Psyker Cannon", the unit that can be disgustingly powerful if used to full effect..... Pskyer Battle Squads, get a squad of 10 and Soulstorm, aim at a unit 36" away and suddenly your oppenent is facing a Strength 10 Large Blast with a D6 AP. Imagine three such squads running around with 2 Primaris Psykers backing them up, along with a Platoon and a Veteran Squad filling up the points.

*The "Special Forces", Storm Troopers being the main focus of the list, the three Doctrines they can chose at the start of the game means you can have an assassination force, a suppression force or power armour killers. Throw in a couple of Veteran squads and you can keep most enemies pinned while you grab objectives, give them Valkyries and the army moves fast, strikes hard and adaptable, even if a Valkyrie is shot down it isn't a dedicated transport so units can use any Valkyrie on the board.

 

I could go on, but frankly those ideas are enough, and I didn't even include the combat builds. The Imperial Guard can be devastating and allows for at least the 9 different builds I've just listed, the Chaos codex doesn't even offer three different builds, its either cults or no cults.

[IronWinds]

Since each Warband is individually governed and each Lord has his own ambitions there is a lot of room to include smaller cult units or even units into such a group, or even alliances between two larger groups. There is no identity of "we are the X Legion" that need to be preserved, since the Legions are not coherent forces anymore.

 

Funny in the IW IA it talked about their organization not changing much after the heresy, and based on the other responses other legions did the same. WEs literally fell apart, to a degree everyone else stayed together.

 

 

And people cannot play Iron Hands, Flesh tearers or Blood Ravens anymore, since they do not get any special rules? Now an Iron Hands painted army is simply vanilla Ultramarines in a different colour?

 

I imagine using the SM codex they can create different armies. They are not all 1-2DP, termicides, 4-5rhinos, oblits/defilers. But without rules.... yea they are just different paint jobs.

 

Chaos Marines have gotten Cult units as Troops, Vindicators, unlimited Raptors, unlimited Obliterators and unlimited daemons to represent different legions.

 

No we don't, any army can take those. Under the OLD rules those were used to represent different legions. Cult armies, cult troops, IWs=vindicators/obliterator, NLs=raptors, etc. We had all those things before, you just had to take a legion to get them. We don't have anything new in this codex, just a bunch of downgraded crap.

 

It is left to the player to construct "Black Legion" or "Iron Warriors" lists with the Codex.

 

Except those two armies will look exactly alike. Having a vindicator instead of a defiler does not make it an IW list.

 

He can play one of the classic Legions, and theme his list accordingly, or he can create a warband or his own renegade Chapter, or focus entirely on which units are the most effective. You could do all that with the 3.5 Codex, but with his distinct lists to chose from it did not exactly encourage that kind of approach. I do think the current Codex is a bit more open and encouraging to DIY, even though I did wish they would have included a decent description of the classic Legions.

 

Have you been in chaos army lists anytime in the past couple years? DP, termicide, rhino squads, oblits/defilers. Thats it, the ONLY theme you get is the paint job. And YES the 3.5 codex did work for renegades, it was called a vanilla list. You just couldn't have 6 oblits... that was IW only, you couldn't have bezerkers as troops.... that was WE only. My favorite part of this quote.... is 'most effective.' So throw fluff out the window, throw real themed armies out the window, I want my 6 obliterators and my bezerkers too!!! I guess if you want the best of every army, but not the restrictions this codex is pretty good..... of course every freaking army looks exaclty alike because of it now :D . I realize what happened. All those whiny brats that complained they couldn't take obliterators and havoks in world eater forces, and the IW players who wanted bezerkers and plague marines just whined to GW till they gave in.

 

That has to be it... otherwise we wouldn't have Kharne leading Emperor's Children into battle.

[Legatus]

Anarnaxe:

 

Legatus, don't be wishy-washy with your responses, you describe how the chaos book can field legions well enough, and then go on to say how the book should have more legion stuff. Make up you mind.

I say it is possible to play Legion with the current Codex. But I already know about the Legions and what they would use. The Codex unfortunately does not describe the Legions that well. The descriptions are still available with a bit of searching, but I would have preferred a description in the Codex.

The 3.5 Codex at least had half a page (or quarter) for each legion, even though that could be misleading as in the case of the Alpha Legion, which gives the impression that they attack from multiple "directions", not employing multiple methods of attack.

 

And the truth is, there is nothing new in the Chaos Space Marine Codex, no new information, no new units, nothing.

Now this is totally my own preferrence, but I don't want new units in a Codex. I just want updated, perhaps improved rules that work with the current Edition. What I dislike most about the current Codex Space Marines, next to the emphasis on special characters, are all the new and "un-Codex" units. Space Wolves riding on Wolves? Oh pleeease no!

 

---

 

Lay:

 

I'd rather decide for myself if and how many infiltrators and cultists my fluffy Alpha Legion army contains.

And perhaps someone else would like to use only Raptors for his Night Lords, or only Dreadnoughts for his Iron Warriors. Maybe the Codex should not have such options. Maybe that's what Apocalypse is for.

 

Also "deep strikers, flankers, infiltrators, transports, havocs, tanks, dreads, all in one list"? Would have worked in 3.5.

I am saying you can pay Alpha Legion now. I am not saying you could not play Alpha Legion then.

 

If people demand rules for these armies, more power to them. Who are we to say otherwise?

I can understand if someone wants Special Rules for his army. I can also say the army is playable without special rules.

 

---

 

the jeske:

 

what is not true for WB [one legion everyone does what lorgar tells them to do] , BL [everyone does what abadon tells them to do]. NL still have their high command and work as one [and yes they do merc work , but NL did not break up not even after the heresy and legion wars it is in the night hunter fluff]. 1ksons all work for magnus , save for ahrimans cult and even he when ordered by his god , still obeys magnus[see 13th crusade] . most of the DG still work for mortation [they also do nothing most of the time , but that is a different thing ] . IW have inner civil wars , but perturbo still rules them all. he orders they obey .

I assume while all the Legions are splintered into more or less independent fractions, if the head honcho calls the Lords will answer it.

 

only the difference is that an"alaitoc" army and a "sim-hanaan" army will be different . A NL army is going to be identical to a AL army and to a WB army and even a BL army if someone decided to not use cult units. A sm army with bikes as troops is drastcilly different then an army build lets say vulkan [but it could be just as well a normal hq]

I do think the differences between Alaitoc and Saim-Hann and between White Scars and Salamanders are much more drastic than those between Night Lords and Word Bearers. The differences between NL, WB and AL are largely in the motivation and preparation of their battles. Night Lords might put more emphasis on shock troops, Alpha Legion moght try to maintain a high diversity, the Word Bearers might focus more on large units of infantry, but other than that they are Chaos Space Marines, coming in "tactical" or havoc squads, with Veterans and Terminators, and the more exotic specialists. The Word Bearers like to employ masses of slaves and cultists in their campaigns, or summon hordes of daemons. But you are not playing "Word Bearers and Cultist hordes" or "Word Bearers and Daemons", you are playing "Word Bearers", and they are Chaos Space Marines. There are legal ways how you can play "Word Bearers and Cultists (traitor guard)" or "Word bearers and Daemons", but in a regular 40K game you will play "Word Bearers".

 

Forcing people to use this dex is as if GW made codex sm and said-guys as of right now codex SW/BT/BA/DA are illegal for play , use the sm dex . I mean you have BA veteran assault sm there[vanguard] , ravenwing[with a biker cpt] etc- and those 4 would still be fewer then chaos players , because remember 3.5 chaos dex had 8 different legion armies + options to build renegade warbands.

I do agree that the cult Legions are a bit less well represented by the Codex, but I do not think that every Legion would need it's own list to work. Same as not every Space Marine Chapters get their own rules or their own Codex. Just as the Space Wolves got their own rules, perhaps so should the Death Guard. But Night Lords and Alpha Legion? That can be done with a basic list and selected choices.

 

ok m8 once again. how is it up to the player to contruct this army when there is one freaking build to play with.

I am not buying the "one build only" stuff, but I know your opinion on that matter.

 

how is the new dex more open for DIY? everything you can do in the Gav dex could be done in the 3.5 dex .

The 3.5 Codex gave you nine distinct Lists of how the different legions are played. So it encouraged players buying the Codex to collect and play one of those nine Legions. The 4th Edition Codex has no such distinct Lists, so it encourages players more to build an army they like. If they are new players and start finding out about what different types of Chaos armies there are (warbands, traitor Chapters, Legions), they can then use the Codex to create the army they want.

 

---

 

IronWinds:

 

Funny in the IW IA it talked about their organization not changing much after the heresy

I would love to double check that right now, but I don't have the articles at hand. I thought I did remember distinctly that while the Iron Warrior "Grand Companies" during the crusade/heresy were set at about 1000 men they were now varrying in size. Or perhaps I am confusing that with the Word Bearer hosts?

 

and based on the other responses other legions did the same.

I do like the Index Astartes articles as my prime source on Legino organisation, but according to the 2nd and the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines the Legions have been losely divided into smaller warbands. That is not to say that they still feel some bonds or loyalty to warbands of the same genetic heritage, but unless the Legion Commander plans a major campaign every Lord or Champion is probably left to do their own thing.

 

I imagine using the SM codex they can create different armies. They are not all 1-2DP, termicides, 4-5rhinos, oblits/defilers.

I have never used a 1-2 DP, Termincide, 4-5 Rhinos, oblits/defilers. I did not know I was doing Chaos "wrong".

 

Chaos Marines have gotten Cult units as Troops, Vindicators, unlimited Raptors, unlimited Obliterators and unlimited daemons to represent different legions.

No we don't, any army can take those. Under the OLD rules those were used to represent different legions.

Usually it is ok to just quote the one sentence to which you want to reply, but appearently you did not get the point I was trying to convey in that section at all. Or maybe you just don't like that this is how variant armies are created in every Codex in 5th, which is a valid opinion. But I have to disagree with the assertion that it is therefor not possible anymore to play those variant armies. See Alaitoc/Saim-Hann example.

 

It is left to the player to construct "Black Legion" or "Iron Warriors" lists with the Codex.

Except those two armies will look exactly alike.

I doubt that very much. But I guess it depends on the intent of the player to create a "Black Legion" or "Iron Warriors" list.

 

Have you been in chaos army lists anytime in the past couple years? DP, termicide, rhino squads, oblits/defilers.

I assume you were talking about tournaments. No, I do not play at tournaments. In only play at the store, and neither my Chaos list nor any I have seen matches the list that is constantly cited here. Aside from my Night Lords (sometimes Night Lords with PM or Zerks) I remember Nurgle/Khorne mix, Tank/CSM Iron Warriors and Noise Marine/Chosen warband. I have seen Thousand Sons as well.

The reason why I have not played World Eaters with the current Codex is simply that my Khorne models are in a different city, and I don't have them at my place. But one of the first things I was excited about when the current Codex came out was that I could not do "teeth of Khorne", perhaps with heavy bolters/autocannons or with all flamers.

 

You just couldn't have 6 oblits... that was IW only, you couldn't have bezerkers as troops.... that was WE only. My favorite part of this quote.... is 'most effective.' So throw fluff out the window, throw real themed armies out the window, I want my 6 obliterators and my bezerkers too!!! I guess if you want the best of every army, but not the restrictions this codex is pretty good...

What are we talking about now? That it is up to the player whether he wants to create fluffy lists or power game lists? Was that different with 3.5?

My point was that it is up to the player how he uses the Codex.

[the jeske]

I assume you were talking about tournaments. No, I do not play at tournaments. In only play at the store, and neither my Chaos list nor any I have seen matches the list that is constantly cited here. Aside from my Night Lords (sometimes Night Lords with PM or Zerks) I remember Nurgle/Khorne mix, Tank/CSM Iron Warriors and Noise Marine/Chosen warband. I have seen Thousand Sons as well.

The reason why I have not played World Eaters with the current Codex is simply that my Khorne models are in a different city, and I don't have them at my place. But one of the first things I was excited about when the current Codex came out was that I could not do "teeth of Khorne", perhaps with heavy bolters/autocannons or with all flamers.

well I dont know where you play , but in main land europe the differance between atournament chaos list and non tournament chaos list ,is that the tournament one is always painted [ well with at least the minimum 4 colors].

 

Usually it is ok to just quote the one sentence to which you want to reply, but appearently you did not get the point I was trying to convey in that section at all. Or maybe you just don't like that this is how variant armies are created in every Codex in 5th, which is a valid opinion.

m8 I dont know . you do understand that there is a difference between lets say a khan list with bikes and a vulkan list [from same codex] and on the other hand there is no difference between your NL with cult units and lets say a BL army . and that is just unit by unit comparation , because game playwise there is also no difference between a DG army[2dps 4 pm unit as troops +oblits] and lets say a WB army [2dps 4csm +oblits unit]. a nob biker list has different game play then lets say an army with lots of trukks and death rollers. chaos has no such difference in army builds , unless for you difference is how you paint your army.

 

If they are new players and start finding out about what different types of Chaos armies there are (warbands, traitor Chapters, Legions), they can then use the Codex to create the army they want.

first of all considering there is 0 fluff in the dex , unless someone read books or old codex he may not even know what a legion is and how it works. also the BL list let people do all the flexible builds they could have wanted , they could also play a no legion list . Isnt it strange how chaos had more then 9 armies and many lists in 3.5 and in 4th where you have"options" armies are clones of each other.

 

But Night Lords and Alpha Legion? That can be done with a basic list and selected choices.

and both armies will be the same . so in the end there would be no AL or NL , but cult armies with distinct army builds and identical undivided armies. wonderful. unless you mean some far future where options like raptors or chosen were made viable/playable.

I am not buying the "one build only" stuff, but I know your opinion on that matter.

yep that is true it is my opinion. but look at the w40k forums around the world . look at some german or italian forums[am not going to force you to check slavic forums] see how spanish and french chaos list look like. There is no difference , same lists , same builds. in 3.5 every few months people went "m8 have you seen that semi demon bomb with WB or that hth AL list , they were never seen before" . with the new dex we had this once when chaozylla went top 8 [and then was never seen on any tournament] .

 

The differences between NL, WB and AL are largely in the motivation and preparation of their battles

only neither of those has rules and is never a part of the game , unless someone write reports to WD a fanzin or for himself[what would seriouslly start to worry me , if that happened ]. So for you all the chaos undivided armies are the same and the only thing that makes them different is how you paint them and how the player using them calls them.

I assume while all the Legions are splintered into more or less independent fractions, if the head honcho calls the Lords will answer it.

only the fluff says the WB never broke up . Same about NL . DG and 1ksons have one known sect that works separate and that is all.

 

 

 

You know that is one thing that could make the codex ok in my eyes. If it had the same rules it had , but had tons of fluff. What legions/warbands did durning 13th crusade [because not everyone has old WD] , how the legion war went past the horus heresy . more info about it, then just EC beat up all in the begining , make clones of horuse , abadon gets angry stomps EC , legion war is over. Short snipets of how do csm see their gods , how different legions [not just cult ones and wb] cope with stuff like faith and believes.

But instead we got old 3ed copy past and sub par rules .

[incinerator950]

I just lost my placing for the Empire on Renegade squadron for reading this :D: again, damnit.

 

Legatus, I understand you're rationalizing the little eeking of any life out of the 4th edition codex, but jeske is right.

 

The only thing seperating any undivided force, any cult force, from another, is unit composition and a paint job. Lets be honest, 70% of all tournament armies are the same, or work on the same principal.

 

Yes a paint job is wonderful, but there's not enough background in this codex, there is barely any besides some skirmishes and a list of blender random-word names for Renegade Warbands. Hey look Huron took over a Space wolf Cruiser, Nightlords decimated a cardinal world, Alpha Legion took out a Chapter by subterfuge, we got some example of a fallen Space Marine who somehow managed to get other warbands to join him, and we now have to have some way of explaining why we have Plague Marines, and Berzerkers because they're almost always from a Legion now. Black Legion is now somewhat compromised of Warbands and Legion deserters who rallied to Abbadon's Cause. This is it, this is what we get, some meaningless examples without describing anything about who the Legions are and why Cult Marines differentiate from people, and why Chaos gods despise each other and how their followers are the same :cuss:ing way. Even the rule book has better examples of why Abbadon and the Legions have hard time allying, and why the Chaos gods hate each other.

 

When jeske keeps talking about everyone looking the same, he is referring to their models that make up the army, and the tactics. Lets face it, most people take Demon Princes, almost everyone is in Rhinos, almost everyone has termicide, just about everyone has Obliterators, Plague Marines or Berserkers, and maby Chaos vanilla.

 

I don't care if you paint them to look like you just smelted them out of gold, they play the same, they are the same. This would be better if multiple people were arguing against you Legatus.

 

There is a problem if I can show new Chaos players the old codex and they are amazed after reading the new one. Even worse is how many Chaos players gradually shelving their armies, selling them (I'm about too), or switching to the Fu..Wolf Dex.

 

We had established background for a long time and it got thrown out a window so people can play Lash spam all day with their pink Berzerkers and their fuzzy Plague Marines because a lack of control and intelligence over counts as.

 

Yes we are still competitive, we have a cheap combo and an imbalanced army selection that favors only 4-5 units out of everything, our Fast Attack is a joke, and I can have a pink panther skin Demon Prince leading my Khorne Berserkers or Ahriman taking command of a squad of plague marines. Even better is our demons are all generic and equal. So if my Nurgle Sorcerer summons a Greater Demon, I might as well melt like 4 sprues into a spikey cube, and say it's legit because it's the size of a GD and that it's made from GW Products I scrapped because they suck.

 

Keep in mind I play a Nurgle aligned Night Lords company that deviates from normal tactical situations (we have none) and provide a decoy for our brothers to more safely knock out the enemy.

[Wolfbiter]

But instead we got old 3ed copy past and sub par rules .

 

I was wondering something about this...what is it about Chaos in 40K that seems to be so problematic for GW, and requires the constant codex revisions?

 

I'm thinking mainly of 3rd edition, where there was the unpopular ultra-thin 3rd edition codex. Then the 3.5. Then revised printings of 3.5 due to errors. And now the current codex.

 

It makes me wonder if there are two schools of thought within the design studio...and they alternate winning arguments with management how Chaos rules will be written each revision.

 

To be fair, though Chaos isn't the only one...the other seems to be the Dark Angels, who get codex after codex revision, each apparently with problems. Dark Eldar, too, but at least for them it only happened once.

 

I can see why it wouldn't be cost effective and they'd be loath to do it, but I wish GW would simply do a revised version of this Codex: Chaos Space Marines. I wouldn't even ask for new models. But I'd like to see the Legions put back in the fluff and some tweaks to point costs to make the shunned, unpopular units in the Codex fun to take again.

 

Just for example...I was comparing the 3.5 and current books last night. I was surprised when I read that Daemon Weapons didn't lose all attacks if you failed a mastery test in 3.5. You just took a wound. Wish they'd kept that style. And Lords were 30 pts cheaper. Don't understand why they made them comparable in cost to Daemon Princes while giving Princes way more options. Those are the kind of things I don't get in the new Codex. The design philosophy seemed to be randomly applied to individual entries--some became disproportionately cheap and powerful, some were arbitrarily nerfed and/or made more expensive, some were improved and proportionately expensive (Plague Marines). But it seems like it was done in a haphazard kind of way.

[incinerator950]

The rumor on the block is that Orks were held as more important and apparently they decided to throw us out rushed so they could save more time to get their precious Nobz out.

[IronWinds]

I would love to double check that right now, but I don't have the articles at hand. I thought I did remember distinctly that while the Iron Warrior "Grand Companies" during the crusade/heresy were set at about 1000 men they were now varrying in size. Or perhaps I am confusing that with the Word Bearer hosts?

 

Didn't mean size, meant their formations, how they attacked, operated ect. The fact that an IW army was still moslty IWs, not a bunch of random marines wondering around.

 

Usually it is ok to just quote the one sentence to which you want to reply, but appearently you did not get the point I was trying to convey in that section at all.

 

Nope got your point very well. I just think it is absolutely wronge :) . There are no legion rules, your trying to argue that we can still create legions by just fielding the same units said legion would field. Sorry, but it is still a DIY army, it has no rules for itself. Thats my problem. You can base your DIY army on a legion, but it is still just a DIY army. Your NLs are just DIY marines in blue paint, same goes for my IWs. That is my problem. And stop using the Eldar as examples, I could care less about them.

 

 

I assume you were talking about tournaments. No, I do not play at tournaments. In only play at the store, and neither my Chaos list nor any I have seen matches the list that is constantly cited here. Aside from my Night Lords (sometimes Night Lords with PM or Zerks) I remember Nurgle/Khorne mix, Tank/CSM Iron Warriors and Noise Marine/Chosen warband. I have seen Thousand Sons as well.

 

Tournaments? What tournaments, how did they get into this. I'm lost. Are you just assuming every army list in the chaos army list section is meant for a tourny? No my argument here is that there are only a few decent units in the chaos codex... so everyone ends up taking them. Possessed are worthless, Dreadnoughts are worthless, Spawn cost double what they use to and had their stats decreased, Lords are inferior to sorcerers and DPs, ect. You end up w/ DP, terminators, CSM/bezerkers/plague marines, obliterators/predators/vindicators/defilers. Most armies look 75% the same, only differences being what type of CSM they decided to use in their rhino squads, what mark they gave their demon prince, and which heavy support they used. The lists that come out of the chaos codex all end up looking very much alike. If they all look very much alike what seperates BL from IWs? And don't avoid the question, tell me, if the lists that come out look the same, what is the difference besides the paint job? And I know your list is different, but the vast majority of chaos lists look the same.

 

What are we talking about now? That it is up to the player whether he wants to create fluffy lists or power game lists? Was that different with 3.5?

My point was that it is up to the player how he uses the Codex.

 

I don't know what we are talking about. You split that paragraph up so much into different quotes while leaving out huge sections its hard for me to read it.

 

Have you been in chaos army lists anytime in the past couple years? DP, termicide, rhino squads, oblits/defilers. Thats it, the ONLY theme you get is the paint job. And YES the 3.5 codex did work for renegades, it was called a vanilla list. You just couldn't have 6 oblits... that was IW only, you couldn't have bezerkers as troops.... that was WE only. My favorite part of this quote.... is 'most effective.' So throw fluff out the window, throw real themed armies out the window, I want my 6 obliterators and my bezerkers too!!! I guess if you want the best of every army, but not the restrictions this codex is pretty good..... of course every freaking army looks exaclty alike because of it now . I realize what happened. All those whiny brats that complained they couldn't take obliterators and havoks in world eater forces, and the IW players who wanted bezerkers and plague marines just whined to GW till they gave in.

 

[bolds are the parts that were removed....]

Much easier to read when you put it back together and in context B) . Now reading it as a whole.... it looks like I was arguing that with the new codex almost every army looks the same except for the paint job. Sounds like what I have been saying for awhile now. You had made a comment about with the new codex you could "focus entirely on which units are the most effective." So I went on a rant... sorry... about how people in the past complained because they couldn't mix and match things... that for fluffs sake shouldn't be mixed... and GW gave in making a completely unfluffy chaos army that a 'few' people loved because it allowed them to mix those units. I think thats more clear when you read the paragraph as a whole :P .

 

Now my rant brings us back to statements made earlier in this topic... that people who like the 4th list like it because it can make a good army easily, and the people who don't like it don't because it lacks fluff, story, and variety.

[incinerator950]

"It looks like I was arguing that with the new codex almost every army looks the same except for the paint job."

 

Dude we've said that about over a dozen times by atleast 3-6 people.

 

I found 3.5 to be easy to make an army. I guess that means I have an education higher than highschool.