Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I whole heartedly agree with Decoy on this, as he certainly gave voice to some my underlying feelings. My opinion about bandwagoners has steadily gone downhill since the codex has been revealed for previews as the majority of people I have encountered in the real world and on other forums are picking up the new codex just because of the new rules, which I find disrespectful to the long fangs and grey hunters who have played through the 10 years since our last codex. I even encountered a player who just wanted the codex to field a all WG terminator army :) . The other thing that is sending my blood pressure through the roof is the constant whining of cheese that I've heard from some codex SM players, and suggestions of using our codex as 'counts as' for armies from other codecies. I have to admit, my brothers, this does not sit well with me. But by the Emperors Gold Plated nipples, Decoy is quite right about the wagoneers. I'll acknowledge anyone who joins us for what we are, but those who seek to turn us into a powergame, cheese and tournie sandwich before moving onto the next "Creep..." There never has been, and never will be a place in the Fang for you. You hit the nail on the head, Vassakov, and I will personally lodge my virtual or real foot up the arse of anyone who tries to turn us into tournament power gamer cheese. I will welcome new blood to the fang, offer them an ale and a seat at the fire but they will have to earn their place in the halls of Russ. It is as simple as that. Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2109884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanon Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I'll be quite honest in saying I'm a Blood Claw in all sense of the word. I'm a lore/fluff fanatic, and basically have been collecting various marine pieces just for fun. Haven't even painted anything, and I've played two games using the vanilla codex with some friends. That being said... when I heard nigh on.. six? months ago that the wolves might be getting a codex, I knew instantly what I'd gravitate toward. The sheer greatness of the lore behind the Sons of Russ is just what I love. Loud, boisterous, and utterly insane. :) So, I've been waiting patiently, while my inner wolf tugs at my. And now the time is almost upon us... and I'm about to have to let out a howl of joy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2109886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 well tanon welcome lad ....dont let that go to your head now "tosses another log on the fire" and dreams of days gone by Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2109892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemox Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I believe i am going to be feeling the same that the veterans here are feeling once a new nid codex is on the way..... And personally i am just fine with having to prove myself, in all honesty i prefer it that way there are absoloutley no reason that the veterans should respect a new wolf into the pack allot like an actual wolf pack, the wolves further up on the pecking order is not going to like new blood since they are afraid they are going to ruin things, (pure cheesegaming in this case) but should the new wolves be able to prove that they just want to be a member of the pack and is willing to adapt to the rules there the dominant subjects in the pack will gain some respect for them, unless they suddenly prove a threat :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2109893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keld Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Though I'm still relatively new to the Fang( just over 2 years running), I agree fully with Decoy, Vassakov and most everyone else. I've been proud to help at least one other Blood Claw get himself started, and this was long before the new 'dex was rumored. I believe that after a few months, we'll see a decent crop of new blood, and all the "wagoneers" will have moved on to whatever the next flavour of the week is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2109939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I wanted to say that I've been in the wargaming hobby for nearly 26 years and bandwagoning has always been there. It's not going to go away. Steam and cussing about it is useless. I'm not saying you have to like it, but your better off looking on the bright side of things. I say let the bandwagoneers waste their money on their erroneous ways. In the long run it will benefit us; more stuff is bought more GW invests in SW. If you don't like these guys fine, I agree, don't play with them and explain politely why; maybe they'll see Russ' light and change their ways. Or else play with them and show them the right way to do things. I've seen some of these guys get off the wagon and settle in the proper way in the hobby and that is to our benefit just as much as them spending money on it. But as Keld said many will move on, and that is just as good, and in their wake they'll leave behind a new generation of Wolves. Isn't that how a lot of us began by seeing the SW codex and heeding its call? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirnir Ragefang Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Well, i don't think i can consider myself a Long Fang, more of a Grey Hunters as i joined with the 3. Edition Codex. The Wolves were my first Army and have been my only to break 2000 Points. There was never any question which Army was the right one. I'm a great fan of the vikings (even look like one :D ) so choosing the Wolves was a nobrainer. Now my feelings about the new influx of Bloodclaws are kinda mixed. I see alot of discussions popping up which Marine Chapters could be played with the new Wolf 'dex. Though i can understand the anger of Dark Angels players who got screwed over with their wargear and now want to switch to the Wolves to play Death or even Ravenwing (Since when does Logan Grimnar take too battle exclusively with the retinues of his Lords?) I can#t understand why there is no possibility to play the 13th Company, especially the Wulfen Packs. Wasn't there even rules for Ulrik Sternhammer the 13th Wolfpriest? But back to the Bloodclaws, everyone who dons the Grey Powerarmour for the rich lore the Space wolves have is a welcome Battlebrother to me. Everyone who likes the rules and uses them to build a army with a stylish background is welcome to me. But i will visit nothing but scorn and horrible puns unto those who join up to get the most of Cheese out of the wolves, or those who field their Blue or yellow or whatever Marines just to have the "best" rules currently available and just jump ship when the Codex Blood Angels may finally be released. Those that only join up to play the newest army and quickly abandon it once a new one comes along will provide me with a source of cheap bits, so i can't complain. Just like the "overpowered" Orks, Ultramarines, and Guard, who turned out to be less cheesey than anticipated, most of the pups will leave again when they don't win everytime. To sum it up: If you come for the ale and the stories, yer welcome. If you come seeking cheese, get yerself out! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Though i can understand the anger of Dark Angels players who got screwed over with their wargear and now want to switch to the Wolves to play Death or even Ravenwing (Since when does Logan Grimnar take too battle exclusively with the retinues of his Lords?) Using the Codex of their arch-rivals. You have to expect such things from the Dweeb Angels! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I was originally going to post a very inflammatory and instigating response to some of the posters in this thread, but that wouldn't have gotten me anywhere. Instead, I'll say this: You have to understand that your codex is very flexible in terms of what you can do, moreso than the Vanilla Space Marine codex. Your tactical squads are better than its tactical squads, your sergeants are better, your Devastators are better, etc. But even beyond that, you have to understand that your codex can do things that the other won't allow. Say, for example, that you're an Iron Hands player. Now you can take a Venerable Dreadnought as an HQ! Your 'Techmarine' can now buy servitors that don't have Mind Lock! Your 'Tactical Squad Sergeants' can purchase Terminator armor! Another example: Blood Ravens! Between Njal and three more psyker HQs, you have a perfect psyker-heavy army! Hell, I play Blood Angels and while I'm building my army around my codex, I look at Mark of the Wulfen and see an effect very similar to the Black Rage, or a Salamander player can take both a flamer AND a meltagun in a squad with a sergeant with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield! Huzzah! ;) And those players who only want to field Logan and Wolf Guard in Terminator armor because the Deathwing list is lacking? More power to them I say! As long as any of these people use WYSWYG on their models in a rational and logical manner I'd see no trouble with them using a codex. I'd certainly welcome them with some of that roleplay this forum is known for by passing them a nonexistant ale than lumping them together with those, albeit few, that are only in this for the cheese. Anyways, that's my 2 bits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger of Wolftime Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Eh? We can still take Venerable Dreads as HQ? I hadn't heard that.. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Eh? We can still take Venerable Dreads as HQ? I hadn't heard that.. ;) I think Bjoern might be available as an HQ but I'm unsure, but the poster is right about the other stuff, people want a more fluffy force and C:SM was fairly poor at offering some things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Bjorn is available as an HQ, yes. Not as great as the old codex where you could take any Venerable Dread and make him an HQ, but the option is there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Bjorn is available as an HQ, yes. Not as great as the old codex where you could take any Venerable Dread and make him an HQ, but the option is there. And he's a beast of a dread. I don't really mind if people use our dex so long as they stick with their choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 My take on bandwagoners is that they bring new blood and enthusiasm. There will be those who leave for the next best thing or until their dex is updated properly. There will be those who find they really love the wolves and stay. What I actually have angst over, is folks who act high and mighty and look down on those who come into our army enthusiastically. I'd hate for us to turn new folks away and get a reputation for being aloof, crotchety, and unfriendly. Remember, it is a hobby, and not everyone rolled out the womb yelling praises to Russ and holding a stein in their hand. New folks will come, or GW will care less about our dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Ok, Ominous. I'll accept your gauntlet. You have to understand that your codex is very flexible in terms of what you can do, moreso than the Vanilla Space Marine codex. Your tactical squads are better than its tactical squads, your sergeants are better, your Devastators are better, etc. But even beyond that, you have to understand that your codex can do things that the other won't allow. Whilst the Devastators may well be better (although Fire Control is an old, old rule to represent their age and they needed a points break) I'll disagree on the other two. Our "Tactical" Squads aren't Tactical at all, they are tooled for CC. As they always have been. Counter Attack is again, a rule we've had since 3rd edition, maybe longer I can't remember right now. Our Sergeants aren't better at all, they just have me CC options as they are supposedly the Champions of the army. Sergeants aren't, they are simply squad members. Say, for example, that you're an Iron Hands player. Now you can take a Venerable Dreadnought as an HQ! Your 'Techmarine' can now buy servitors that don't have Mind Lock! Your 'Tactical Squad Sergeants' can purchase Terminator armor! So with the Servitors it's a case of getting round a rule you don't like? Our Wolf Guard taking TDA basically forfiets the ability to have any real mobility with the squad, a good opponent will drill them down with fire like lightning. Another example: Blood Ravens! Between Njal and three more psyker HQs, you have a perfect psyker-heavy army! Or take Tigerus and a Librarian? That's still a higher than average number of psykers? Hell, I play Blood Angels and while I'm building my army around my codex, I look at Mark of the Wulfen and see an effect very similar to the Black Rage, or a Salamander player can take both a flamer AND a meltagun in a squad with a sergeant with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield! Huzzah! :) And those players who only want to field Logan and Wolf Guard in Terminator armor because the Deathwing list is lacking? More power to them I say! As long as any of these people use WYSWYG on their models in a rational and logical manner I'd see no trouble with them using a codex. I'd certainly welcome them with some of that roleplay this forum is known for by passing them a nonexistant ale than lumping them together with those, albeit few, that are only in this for the cheese. Anyways, that's my 2 bits. I disagree with Logan and the Wolf Guard, I don't think that was a necessary option in the codex. And I don't think we'll be seeing it much given the points costs being bandied around - Deathwing should outnumber them around 1.5/2:1 with no problems. The Sallies example again forfiets flexibility and puts the squad at 11 - hardly particularly fluffy is it? As for the Wulfen = DC - they are completely different mechanics. Again, the only reason I can see for it is trying to take advantage of not taking a normal DC. Of course, my biggest contention is this - we've been able to do this for over a year with the new C:SM out (DW example excepted.) So, why didn't you do this last year, or the year before? Why, only as we are being rereleased are you complaining about not what we can now do, but what we always could do? You see why we're annoyed? People are acting as if we are all of a sudden broken, or overpowered. We, the real Wolf players know that we're going to be broadly the same as we were before. And we are already sick of hearing the broken comments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Remember, it is a hobby, and not everyone rolled out the womb yelling praises to Russ and holding a stein in their hand. Cheers for that, being sigged! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 @Ominous Anonymous Since part of that post was directed at me, I will respond to your well-reasoned argument with one of my own. I think you have to realise that some people are going to voice their opinions about the changes in the codex and the influx of new blood due to our new codex, and these opinions may not be positive, especially concerning the 13th Company. You're right, bandwagoneers are to be expected with a new codex but that was a given that we all knew. At first, I was very positive about peoples ideas for counts as using the new codex, bandwagoners and I was also sympathetic to the arguments from C:SM players about the 'cheese' in our codex. Two of my close friends are also using the new codex as Skyrar's Dark Wolves and their own great company respectivley. The ideas you have suggested I would gladly have supported and encouraged. A few days ago. Unfortunatley, after reading 100's of posts in various forums over the past few days since reading the new codex, where our new codex has been declared as 'cheese' and everyone and their dog is using the new codex (divergent chapter) for everything from a chaos warband to codex chapter to get the new rules, my patience and sympathy has gone. Completly. I may cool down in the next few months, I may not but at the moment we're probably going to disagree. But thats okay, we're Sons of Russ, we can do that and drink about it in the evening :) . Having said all that, I still stand by what I said that I will welcome the Blood Claws but they will have to prove themselves to earn their place in the halls of Russ. EDIT: Thank you, Lord Ragnarok, for speaking sense to a hot-headed grey hunter. I would hate to come across as somebody who you have described and I apologise if this was the case for any of the Blood Claws who are here for the fluff/models. I think I'll sig that line as well ^_^ , Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The thing is that, although the wolves aren't going to be especially powerful, the space wolves style of play is the way a whole lot of people want to be able to play marines: as a mobile, close range shooting force that is capable in close combat. It's how all marines should be.Plus you're going to have customizable units and HQ's. That's pretty much what makes me consider using the wolves codex. I hate the Codex marine's gunline style of play but don't want to go all the way cc like Black templars or blood angels. The new dex has taken away the ability to play the way I used to and the way I like to. It's not like switch from Codex to Wolves will be all advantageous: I lose relic blades, plasma death command squads, sternguard, assault termies and land raiders (I never used these anyway), and ironclads. Besides the main units i would use are dreads, grey hunters, attack bikes and Skyclaws (only because they're the closes thing to an assault squad wolves have) and a wolf guard battle leader. I want to be able to make an army that has a strong, customizable HQ and good troops. I could probably make a list just as strong or stronger with the Codex:SM , especially considering the unit restrictions I'll be applying to myself with the wolf codex, but i wouldn't enjoy playing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 My take on bandwagoners is that they bring new blood and enthusiasm. There will be those who leave for the next best thing or until their dex is updated properly. There will be those who find they really love the wolves and stay. What I actually have angst over, is folks who act high and mighty and look down on those who come into our army enthusiastically. I'd hate for us to turn new folks away and get a reputation for being aloof, crotchety, and unfriendly. Remember, it is a hobby, and not everyone rolled out the womb yelling praises to Russ and holding a stein in their hand. New folks will come, or GW will care less about our dex. Thank you for your comments Lord Ragnarok, I agree completely. There's no stopping them. Let them come and let them go, either way we win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Vassakov and Decoy have made quite a few excelent remarks and I agree, have an ale guys! As for putting off enthusiastic new guys. I'll just say it depends on the enthusiasm. I don't see anyone turning away Blood Claws that are enthusiastic about the Sons of Russ, the backstory and the character. Those bandwagoners who are only here and enthusiastic for the cheese? Well yes I fully expect them to be rebuked rather bluntly. It's only to be expected. The Sons of Russ fight with honor not with cheese helmets, we'll welcome those new Blood Claws here with genuine enthusiasm, watch s those only here for the flash leave (and then buy their stuff on ebay) and we'll likely make our displeasure plain to those only here for the powergaming. It's all as it should be IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Anonymous Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Ok, Ominous. I'll accept your gauntlet. Expect a PM later; I'd rather not mess up this thread like I did the last one. :o All I'll say here is that the Space Wolf codex now allows for armies that the current Space Marine codex cannot satisfy. If you don't like the idea of someone buying the codex only for the rules then not for the fluff then you're just going to have to deal with it. Now excuse me, I've a Space Wolf Pack box to split with a friend for some bits and some Fenris Grey to pick up. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistinthunder Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Well, it looks like the SW will be quite popular. I saw the codex banded about with glee at my local store. Even the die hard chaos players were reading over the new rules and toys. It will sell very well, and SWs will pop up all over the place. For those that have played through the barren years, do you view this as a good thing or frown at the bandwagoners who could be gone come nids or blood angels? Bandwagoners are enthusiastic for a short while however once a newer codex that looks appealing they will jump ship. Or they will just go back to their original armies after a few weeks/months due to lack of interest. I don't like to be stereotypical but it always happens, every codex release. For now it seems that the Wolves have had a large influx of Blood Claws but I have no doubt It will die down. I can see why some of the Older Wolf' players around here frown upon it but there is nothing to worry about. Nothing out of the ordinary. The players that lose interest (wagonbandars ;)) tend to not be interested in the background of the army of the style, but more towards how 'Koowl' the units look or how powerful the codex is. Give it 2 months after release and I imagine a large portion of the new influx will be dead. Guess you could they are dead due to being killed on the battlefield as a hotheaded bloodclaw, but hell. :o HEY! it doesnt always happen, im one of these 'bandwagoners' and im always interest in fluff also i dont skip around because I LIKE THE LOOK OF THEM! i skip around because i like every army and i want to see the fluff and playstyle of each army before i settle down. if your a wolf i hope you take this as a joke but "KNOW THY FOE" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Likewise, if I wrote the response I wanted to concerning being told to deal with it then this thread would probably get melta'd ;) . But I need to say this. It has been 10 years since our last codex, whereas there have been TWO updates for the Space Marine Codex that allow a wide variety of army builds. Discussing fluff, conversions etc is what we've been doing since the last update and it has been a long time since we've had to deal with an infux of new blood, especially with GW's current fascination with 'counts as'. People are going to have strong opinions about the new codex being used as 'counts as' because the fluff etc is important to them, and seeing a DIY codex chapter using SW rules would drive some people up the wall. So we'll agree to disagree on this, I think :o Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 People are going to have strong opinions about the new codex being used as 'counts as' because the fluff etc is important to them, and seeing a DIY codex chapter using SW rules would drive some people up the wall. I agree entirely. It's really irritating to have stuck with the Space Wolves through the down times only to have people try to nab the shiny new rules for their nilla marines. Sure maybe the 5th Edition Codex doesn't allow some play styles as easily anymore, it still has tons of new stuff and options that other armies could only dream of, rather than complain and try and use the most cheesy new rules maybe more people should just learn to deal with it and wait their turn like we did. :P Maybe I am a bit crotchety, but everytime a new marine Codex has come out I've just rolled with the punches, retrofitted my models when necessary and kept on trucking and if I changed armies, I took the plunge and dumped em in simple green and fully changed armies. I started Space Wolves about 2 years ago now, nowhere near as long as many of the Long Fangs around here but still long before an update was in sight and have stuck with them since. Any Space Marine army can accomodate most playing styles, maybe not in every single possible manner but regardless if your looking to get up close and personal you can do that with any of the Marine codexies just fine. You don't have to use the shiniest new rules to accomplish that goal. Only group I really feel sorry for are those who ran armies with the trait "Take the Fight to Them" in the 4th Edition Codex. Those people got shafted with 20-60 Tactical Marines armed with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords when the 5th Edition Codex rolled out and no rules to use them with. Now they were either stuck with a monumentally expensive retrofit or a switch to a new Codex, either Blood Angels, Black Templars or Space Wolves and that must of sucked. Still like I said before when the new Codex comes I'll probably seclude myself away, read up on the new stuff, update the Comp History (that's gonna take a while), paint up some new figs and wait for the new meat to settle in, the bandwagoners to move on and the hubbub to die down. Hopefully when the chaos is over there will still be a few drops of ale left somewhere in the Fang. Me thinks we should invest in some more maintanence servitors... ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aranan Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 It won't be fun to tell my opponents that they have to use either codex: DA or codex: SM for their Dark Angels Green marines or the BA WD insert or codex: SM for their red marines. We'll see how many people try it. How dare people try and paint their tiny toy soldiers however they want. I can't believe someone would stray from the awesome and euphoric paint schemes set forth by the almighty GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178401-the-bandwagon/page/2/#findComment-2110414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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