How to fix Chaos in 2 pages.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Alright, i know this has been done before but i wanted to do it myself. Here's how i'd do it. Here's how i wish they'd do it. This is less than 2 pages in word with standard formatting. It'd take 2-3 pages in a White Dwarf, or a fraction of a page over several issues to make us buy more.

 

Additions:

 

Cult Legion Rules:

 

Cult Legion armies may not contain units with Marks of other gods or units that cannot normally take marks/icons. Squads who's number matches their deities sacred number pay 0 pts for 1 champion. Marks/Icons do not stack with these bonuses. The existing cult troopers (berserkers, noise marines, thousand sons, and plague marines) are exempt from any changes and do not count when marking the entire army.

 

World Eaters of Khorne (sacred number 8): For 6 (Increased to 8 after mathhammer) points per model, every infantry unit in the army gains +1 Attack, +1 weapon skill, Fearless, and Furious Charge. If a squad can assault another squad it must (not vehicles). All champions have the option to exchange their current weaponry for lightning claws for 25 pts. Any model with a power weapon or lightning claws may be given rending for 5 pts each.

 

Emperor's Children of Slaanesh (sacred number 6): For 5 points per model, every infantry unit in the army gains +1 Initiative and Fearless. All vehicles may take a Dirge Caster for the normal price. Any model with a bolter can exchange it for a sonic blaster at the normal price for noise marines. Any unit that may take a heavy weapon may take a blastmaster for the normal price. Twin-Linked bolters may be exchanged for sonic blasters at no cost. Autocannons and Twin-linked heavy bolters may be exchanged for a blastmaster for 20 points. Lascannons may be exchanged for blastmasters for 5 points, and twin-linked lascannons for free. Any champion, lord, or sorcerer in the army may take a doom siren for the regular price.

 

Thousand Sons of Tzeentch (sacred number 9): For 5 points per model, every infantry unit in the army gains a 4+ invulnerable save, fearless, slow and purposeful, and inferno bolts. Models with Slow and Purposeful cannot gain the extra attack for having 2 close combat weapons/pistols.Champions, Lords, Sorcerers, and Daemon Princes are not slow and purposeful. Any champion may be made a psyker for 30 points and may know 1 psychic power. If their weapon was a power weapon it becomes a force weapon, and they may cast 2 powers per turn. Sorcerers and Daemon Princes automatically pass psychic tests. Aspiring Sorcerers/Champions do not have to re-roll succesful invulnerable saves against wounds caused by perils of the warp.Assault Squads, Bikers, havocs, and possessed may not be taken. Heavy weapons may not be taken on infantry squads. Thousand Sons dreadnoughts are not crazed.

 

Death Guard of Nurgle (sacred number 7). For 8 points per model, every infantry unit in the army gains +1 toughness, feel no pain, blight grenades, and fearless and takes -1 to their initiative. Assault Squads may not have jump packs. For 3 pts per model, any close combat weapon may be exchanged for a plague sword which is a poisoned weapon that wounds on a 4+. Any power weapon may be exchanged for a plague sword that wounds on a 2+.

 

Undivided Legion Rules:

 

Undivided legions may not take cult troopers unless they are Black Legion.

 

Iron Warriors: May not take icons/marks other than chaos glory. May not use daemons other than princes. May take 2 heavy weapons in ten man chaos marine squads. When this is done no special weapon may be taken. Havocs may be taken as elites as well as heavy support. Any infantry squad may be given the tank hunters veteran skill for 3 points per model.

 

Night Lords: May not take icons/marks. May take bikers and assault squads as troops, but squads taken this way do not count for the minimum of 2 troops (regular marine squads must still be taken). May only take unmarked daemons, but may make the squads jump infantry for 4 points per model. All infantry have Night Vision. Any unit may be given Stealth for 2 points per model. Any unit may be given fearless for 2 points per model.

 

Alpha Legion: May only take the Icon/Mark of Chaos Glory. Any Power armored squad may take either scouts for 1 point per model or infiltrate for 3 points per model. Chosen are scoring units.

 

Word Bearers: May only take the Icon/Mark of Chaos Glory, except on daemons which may take any mark. All infantry count as having personal icons. One HQ unit must be declared a Dark Apostle. Any units with a model within 12” of the Dark Apostle are Fearless. He may be given a 4+ invulnerable save for 10 points.

 

Black Legion: May take cult troopers.

 

Changes to existing rules.

 

Chosen: Cost changed to 20 points per model. Fearless in close combat. Combi weapon price reduced to 5 pts. No longer have infiltrate. Any number may be upgraded to Champions.

 

Possessed: Cost changed to 23 points. Champion may take a power weapon for 10 points or fist for 25 points. May take one of the following abilities for the indicated cost per model: Scouts (1), Fleet (2), Furious Charge(2), Feel No Pain(3), Rending (4), Power Weapons (6).

 

Dreadnoughts: Fire Frenzy wording changed to clarify that it is the nearest unit that is in the dreadnought's line of sight, not the unit in closest proximity.

 

Terminators: Fearless in close combat. Reaper Autocannon cost changed to 15 points. Do not count as moving in terms of firing rapidfire weapons.

 

Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon cost changed to 10 pts each instead of 15.

 

Raptors renamed to Assault Squad. May exchange jump packs for a free rhino. Power Weapons and Power Fists added to the list of special weapons that they may take.

 

Noise marines may take a second blastmaster in 10 man squads.

 

Lesser Daemons can be given marks for the following price per model: Khorne 3 pts, Slaanesh 2pts, Nurgle and Tzeentch 4 pts.

 

Squads with Icons no longer lose the mark when they die. Additionally the Icons of Tzeentch and Nurgle are 20 and 10 pts cheaper respectively.

 

Daemon Weapons: The Bloodfeeder grants +1 str and rending. The undivided daemon weapon still attacks on 1's (but still damages the wielder). Daemon Princes may take Daemon Weapons for 40 pts.

 

Lords: A lord on a bike allows you to take 1 squad of bikers as troops. A lord with a jump pack (not wings) allows you to take 1 squad of jump pack assault marines as troops.

 

Biker price changed to 28 pts per model.

 

Spawn: Cost changed to 30 pts, and now have a 3+ armor save. Spawn created with Gift of Chaos are not worth any kill points.

 

Daemon princes are now 0-1 per army.

 

New stuff added from discussion in the thread is in italics

[DuskRaider]

You're silly! It'll never happen.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Of course, but i still enjoyed writing it.

[Night Lord Dred]

I like reading these, but they always make me wish that there actually were rules in place. Night Lords fearless raptors with stealth and scoring. Id take 50 of them, haha.

 

I dont understand the assault squad thing though. Raptors are already CSM (who have pistol and CCW) with jump packs.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Can I please make a suggestion?

Replace Night Lords gaining Stealth for gaining Daemonic Visage, for X points? Night Lords are terror tactics, not White Scar/Raven Guard wannabe's. Just my personal pet peeve. I'd like it even better if Daemonic Visage was added instead of the Troops thing, but whatever.

Other than that, I like the rules.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I dont understand the assault squad thing though. Raptors are already CSM (who have pistol and CCW) with jump packs.

 

The point was the name change. "Raptors" are a very specific group in the fluff. Ever chaos marine with a jumppack isn't a raptor.

 

Can I please make a suggestion?

Replace Night Lords gaining Stealth for gaining Daemonic Visage, for X points? Night Lords are terror tactics, not White Scar/Raven Guard wannabe's. Just my personal pet peeve. I'd like it even better if Daemonic Visage was added instead of the Troops thing, but whatever.

Other than that, I like the rules.

 

I didn't do this because i wanted to avoid any new rules or wargear. Note that i didn't add cultists or anything either. My goal with writing this was to keep it as streamlined as this current codex is supposed to be. If i was writing up a longer one stuff like that would be in.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Cool then, I see what you're doing now.

[Night Lord Dred]

Honestly, I like the idea that Night Lords use stealth and are difficult to hit. I think it would be a lot more fun as well moving units from cover to cover (especially raptors moving 12" + run). Daemonic Visage would fit the fluff, but it doesnt really add to the fun or is quite as effective, and chaos is scary enough in CC anyways.

[DuskRaider]

On a serious note, I'd say make an exception for Death Guard Terminators... They don't need FNP. Kind of worthless on a unit with a 2+ armor save as it is. If you don't get your save normally, FNP is definitely out the window. And if you can't make a 2+ armor save? Well then, you just plain failed on that roll. I'd say Poisoned Weapons or Nurgle's Rot would be more appropriate (without being a psyker power, of course).

[lord gunthar]

Truly awesome if those rules were in our current codex then i wouldnt consided making the jump to the imperial side. Pity they arnt <_<

[Lord_Caerolion]

Honestly, I like the idea that Night Lords use stealth and are difficult to hit. I think it would be a lot more fun as well moving units from cover to cover (especially raptors moving 12" + run). Daemonic Visage would fit the fluff, but it doesnt really add to the fun or is quite as effective, and chaos is scary enough in CC anyways.

 

While that may be true, the Night Lords fluff gives us a rather direct method of fighting battles. We use terror tactics, not hit and run. Night Haunter stated that you should try to crush your opponent utterly so that others won't want to rebel. That doesn't fit with "hide in trees, and occasionally jump out". It does match with "enemy gets less Leadership, and you take a more direct approach."

 

Personally, the full rules I'd like to see brought back for Night Lords are the Index Astartes ones. Free Night Vision, can choose for Night Fight if attacking, and opponents get negatives to reserves. Instead of the "non 0-1 Raptors", we get cheap/access to Daemonic Visage. Keep Stealth, for some degree of the "hit-and-run" thing.

The "extra Fast Attack" has no basis in fluff, other than the blatantly wrong 3.5 blurb. Attacking at night matches much more than hit-and-run during the day.

Remember:

These humans, their imaginations are strong. Kill a thousand men and they will hate you. Kill a million men and they will queue to face you. But kill a single man and they will see monsters and devils in every shadow. Kill a dozen men and they will scream and wail in the night, and shall feel not hatred, but fear.

This is the way of obedience, my sons. They are panicking, gossiping beasts, these humans. It serves us to allow them to be so.

With planetary invasions, you simply up the scale. Replace 'men' with "cities', or even 'continents' or 'worlds'.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

On a serious note, I'd say make an exception for Death Guard Terminators... They don't need FNP. Kind of worthless on a unit with a 2+ armor save as it is. If you don't get your save normally, FNP is definitely out the window. And if you can't make a 2+ armor save? Well then, you just plain failed on that roll. I'd say Poisoned Weapons or Nurgle's Rot would be more appropriate (without being a psyker power, of course).

 

I left it on them because i figured it wasn't a huge advantage to them since they are already t5 and resilient vs small arms. I considered giving them nurgles rot, but decided against it because it would take awhile to explain that it wasn't counting as a psychic power etc.

[Corpse.]

Our next codex is due right before 6th edition comes out. Just like 5th and 4th.

[Unguis Raptus]

Honestly, I like the idea that Night Lords use stealth and are difficult to hit. I think it would be a lot more fun as well moving units from cover to cover (especially raptors moving 12" + run). Daemonic Visage would fit the fluff, but it doesnt really add to the fun or is quite as effective, and chaos is scary enough in CC anyways.

 

I found it was extremely effective and hilarious to watch. A squad of raptors would force an enemy down by -2 Ld, combine that with the fact I ran mine with Furious Charge, so you win a combat and a squad of IG dropped to like Ld 5/6.

 

 

...God I miss Moving Through Cover, Visage, Furious and Stealth...

[Wolfbiter]

EDIT: Corrected some missing text.

 

Hi Drudge,

I liked reading your suggested changes to Codex Chaos. Overall, I like the book, but I agree there are definitely some modifications that could be made that I think would make it a lot more enjoyable for everyone. I also think they could be added without seriously revamping the entire codex, or having to publish 4-9 separate army lists.

 

As an Alpha Legion and Death Guard player, here's some of my thoughts on your suggestions, and what would satisfy me for a codex revision. I divided them into two catgories, 'rules' and 'fluff':

 

Rules:

1) The Undivided Legions (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion). I liked the general direction of your changes here. Though I know some people don't like this approach, it seems to me the simplest way to incorporate these rules would be to add in a special character for each of these Legion that bestowed some army-wide abilities, a la the loyalist special characters. Hopefully they would tone down points so people could get in their existing personalized Daemon Prince/Sorcerer/Lord as well in the other HQ slot.

 

2) Terminators. This is one of the big areas where I think a small change would be a huge improvement. Instead of Icons, give Terminators the option of purchasing permanent Marks...AND the options of upgrading to Fearless for X points a model (make it expensive enough that it's not an auto-take). I agree with Dusk Raider, having played +1T Nurgle Terminators in the new Codex, I'd be content with just adding Fearless to them.

 

3) Daemons. Give them the option of taking permanent Marks, OR an Icon. I'd be OK with either.

 

4) Dreadnoughts. Like you said, tweak the wording to clarify line of sight rules. Again simple change.

 

5) Possessed. Allow rolling before deployment for abilities.

 

6) One other thing: Daemon Princes. I'd limit armies to just one. This is purely a fluff preference on my part, I admit, but twin lash princes seems a bit over the top. :D

 

As for Fluff, I'd remove about 4-8 pages of the renegades fluff (it got very repetitive after a bit) and add instead a summary of the flavor and history of the nine Traitor Legions, with SUGGESTIONS (not formal restrictions) on how to play. For example. "The Death Guard worship Nurgle, and traditionally are heavy on infantry. We suggest lots of plague Marines and Nurgle terminators and Nurgle icon/marked daemons for this force." But if someone want to do a slight variation (like World Eaters with some CSM-Icon of Khorne squads), they should feel free.

 

When I switched to the new codex, I loved the way my Nurgle army now plays, but my AL got kind of bland. Ideally, I'd like to see a Codex that keeps a lot of the good changes (Plague Marines, Berzerkers,) and just adjusts some of the screwy decisions (Terminators, Possessed, multiple Daemon Princes) and adds a few more options for the Undivideds with the minimal tweaking necessary.

[Legatus]

Ah, yes, writing rules is fun. You know what's also fun? Picking them apart... ;)

 

Cult Legion Rules:

Right off the bat you have a problem with the point costs. You cannot just blankly check how much more expensive a Berserker is compared to a regular Chaos Space Marine and then asign those point costs to those abilities. The abilities are more or less beneficial depending on the other properties of the unit. Berserkers cost the points they cost because they are an infantry unit, cannot get any weapon upgrades other than plasma pistols and are protected "only" by a 3+ save. If you now want to have terminators, bikers or jump infantry with +1 WS and Attack and furious charge, it would have to be more expensive for them. Terminators have power weapons or power fists, so the +1 WS and +1 Attack make much more of a difference (+10 points to make one into a Champion for only the +1 Attack, usually). Raptors are more likely to get the charge, instead of being charged themselves, and they will often reach combat quicker. On the other hand, Devastators who stay behind and shoot heavy weapons will not make much use of the weapon skill, the attack and the furious charge.

 

+5 Points to get Terminators with a 4++ save and twin linked AP3 boltguns? +5 points to get slow and purposefull Havocs with a 4++ save and fearless? Yikes. Talk about imballanced.

 

Any infantry squad may take either scouts for 1 point per model

I.E. Terminators can outflank for +1 points per model.

 

Chosen: (...) Fearless.

Why? There is no reason why regular Chaos Marines, even Veterans, should not retreat when the odds are stacked against them. Unlike their loyalist counterparts, Chaos Marines fight for their own goals, not for a greater cause. When they are badly beaten, they will retreat.

 

Also, it had allways been the trait of Chaos Veterans that they can infiltrate. That's how they were in 2nd and 3rd Edition, and how they are now. The 3.5 Codex replaced the basic Veteran rules with an optional veteran ability of your own choice. Infiltration is their traditional and fluffy trait.

 

Possessed: (...) May take one of the following abilities for the indicated cost per model: Scouts (1), Fleet (2), Furious Charge(2), Feel No Pain(3), Rending (4), Power Weapons (6).

I.E. you want "Chaos" to be reliable and predictable. Boring!

 

Terminators: Fearless.

Same as with Veterans. There is no reason why they should be fearless.

 

Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon cost changed to 10 pts each instead of 15.

Every other Marine army released since Dark Angels pays 15 points, so should Chaos Marines.

 

Raptors renamed to Assault Squad. May exchange jump packs for a free rhino. Power Weapons and Power Fists added to the list of special weapons that they may take.

The point with Raptors is that, similar to Land Speeders and Plasma Cannons, Jump Pack units were not used, or rare, during the great crusade and the heresy. In 2nd Edition Chaos Space Marines did not have any jump pack units at all. In 3rd Edition GW had mercy and gave them the specialised Raptors. But still in 3E and 3.5E they were a 0-1 choice. In the current Codex GW has probably dropped the 0-1 limitation to allow variant armies such as the Night Lords to be built with this Codex (similar why they included Vindicators and unlimited Daemon choices to allow Iron Warriors and Word Bearers). If you want to be fluffy, you limit them to 0-1 again, except perhaps for Night Lords.

Also, if loyalist Assault Marines and Berserkers do not get special CCW upgrade, neither should Raptors.

 

Squads with Icons no longer lose the mark when they die. Additionally the Icons of Tzeentch and Nurgle are 20 and 10 pts cheaper respectively.

Your cult unit rules made the icons redundant anyway.

 

A lord with a jump pack (not wings) allows you to take 1 squad of jump pack assault marines as troops.

As I have described above, jump pack units should be limited. They should not be troops.

[incinerator950]

Chaos Fights for Goals besides it's own selfish needs.

 

Terminators are supposed to be the best according to Thorpe, so they should be fearless for being the best (wut).

 

Possessed that are actually not useless, boring? Please let me hit you with the rulebook.

 

Chaos Marines are more than just another Marine army.

[Night Lord Dred]

Honestly, I like the idea that Night Lords use stealth and are difficult to hit. I think it would be a lot more fun as well moving units from cover to cover (especially raptors moving 12" + run). Daemonic Visage would fit the fluff, but it doesnt really add to the fun or is quite as effective, and chaos is scary enough in CC anyways.

 

While that may be true, the Night Lords fluff gives us a rather direct method of fighting battles. We use terror tactics, not hit and run. Night Haunter stated that you should try to crush your opponent utterly so that others won't want to rebel. That doesn't fit with "hide in trees, and occasionally jump out". It does match with "enemy gets less Leadership, and you take a more direct approach."

 

 

 

Umm, not really. Im not sure what the basis for your interpretation of the fluff comes from, but it's pretty clear that the advantage comes from Night fighting where they are difficult to see (hence Night Lords). They are essentially predators, isolating the enemy (their "prey") and swiftly dealing with them - which is why Raptors, though not necessary, are ideal units, as they are quick, difficult to see shock troops that can be in and out quickly. Hit and run doesnt mean kill one or two guys, it means slaughter the entire isolated group swiftly and quickly, then leave, never being seen.

 

The terror tactics coincides with the stealth. Who wouldnt be afraid just hearing your comrades' screams through the darkness of the night, not knowing who or what is out there. They also use terror tactics before the battle even begins, getting into the heads of their enemies, breaking them before the battle begins.

 

The point is "Terror tactics" have to originate from somewhere. The guardsmen are not afraid because the NLs are painted blue or have wings on their helmets. Its the fact they know theyre impossible to fight back against (stealth), and they know their death with be a painful one that theyll never see coming (being quick, like raptors). The old codex does a great job outlining this in 1 page.

 

-----

Anyways, the point of all the above is that if they were to implement NL rules, the stealth aspect is easily the most important one, as it's the basis for terror. With only Daemonic Visage, they would simply be regular marines that are scarier for absolutely no reason. I think they should just have both.

 

All units have:

 

-Stealth

-Night Vision

-Daemonic Visage

-Fearless

 

Raptors may be scoring.

 

 

In return, Night Lords may not take:

 

-Icons

-Cult Troops

-Daemons

-Spawn

-Obliterators

-Vindicators

-Possessed

-Defilers

 

That would be my interpretation of it.

[Legatus]

Terminators are supposed to be the best according to Thorpe, so they should be fearless for being the best (wut).

So I guess loyalist Terminators and Aspect Warriors should all be fearless too. Because they are the best.

 

Chaos Fights for Goals besides it's own selfish needs.

Chaos Marines usually do not. They fight for power, wealth or for fun. The Iron Warriors love cracking imperial fortifications. They will not sacrifice their lives to make it happen though. The Night Lords in particular usually try to evade stronger opposition. The Alpha Legion simply causes disarray. The Word Bearers could be said to have a cause and fighting for it, but I do think they prefer to sacrifice millions of slaves and cultists instead of valuable legionaires.

 

All units have:

 

(...)

-Fearless

Now where does that come from? The Night Lrods in particular prefer to prey on weak enemies.

[incinerator950]

Being Fearless does not mean being stupid, what you're implying is the game mechanic means you tactically pulled your squad out of a fight, and that they are not running because they're panicking out of being slaughtered.

 

In a matter of speaking, yes. If we however want to compare Loyalist Terminators to Chaos Terminators, Chaos Terminators have been fighting for thousands of years, with combat from various Xenos, Demons, Renegades, pirates, and even amongst their own Legion and the others.

[Legatus]

All no reason why Chaos Terminators should not retreat when faced with certain doom, which is what "fearless" does. Chaos Terminators will not stay do go down fighting if the odds are against them. They have no good reason to.

[incinerator950]

What you're implying is a hit and run fallback rule, not a run for our dear lives because we got our asses handed to us and we're going to die.

[Legatus]

What I am implying is that they retreat from the battlefield because they have sustained heavy losses and do not think they would survive the battle, just like most other units would retreat from the battlefield under such conditions (i.e. failed a morale test and are below 50%).

 

A fall back move is a fighting withdrawal rather than an out-and-out rout. Sometimes fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is the only option left. A withdrawal can give troops the chance to retire to a stronger position, to regroup and mount a fresh attack, or to hold back the approaching enemy.

- BRB, p. 45, "Fall Back!"

[incinerator950]

Well, excuse me.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Actually Legatus, i considered in-depth everything you have mentioned.

 

Right off the bat you have a problem with the point costs. You cannot just blankly check how much more expensive a Berserker is compared to a regular Chaos Space Marine and then asign those point costs to those abilities. The abilities are more or less beneficial depending on the other properties of the unit. Berserkers cost the points they cost because they are an infantry unit, cannot get any weapon upgrades other than plasma pistols and are protected "only" by a 3+ save. If you now want to have terminators, bikers or jump infantry with +1 WS and Attack and furious charge, it would have to be more expensive for them. Terminators have power weapons or power fists, so the +1 WS and +1 Attack make much more of a difference (+10 points to make one into a Champion for only the +1 Attack, usually). Raptors are more likely to get the charge, instead of being charged themselves, and they will often reach combat quicker. On the other hand, Devastators who stay behind and shoot heavy weapons will not make much use of the weapon skill, the attack and the furious charge.

 

+5 Points to get Terminators with a 4++ save and twin linked AP3 boltguns? +5 points to get slow and purposefull Havocs with a 4++ save and fearless? Yikes. Talk about imballanced.

 

First, these costs were not picked arbitrarily. The numbers i ended up with were in most cases the same as the price to upgrade the cult troops yes, but that is coincidence. I disagree that it has to be more expensive for elites/fast attack as well. They weren't in the 3.5 codex. What these point costs do is reward smaller, more elite armies. And that is perfectly in keeping with the fluff of a legion. This point per model cost punishes the use of a ton of cheap troops and rewards the use of elite units. This makes from a smaller, but really beastly army. Yes it makes world eater terminators really strong. They should be. With upgrades they'll be pushing 50 points a model you realize though. It encourages the use of elite units, and so you'll end up with a small army with less scoring units than equvilents. And 2/3 missions are about scoring units. The other 1 is about kill points. Those expensive WE terminators drop to plasma just as easy as a 30pt one. Hell, the nurgle ones with FNP do as well. What i've done doesn't remove any of the natural counters.

 

Also, there is a reason that it is army wide. The WE havocs getting the melee bonuses too isn't a mistake or oversight. The WE do have havocs, yes. But this CC bonus encourages them to be used in a more assaulting role. It makes havocs with a lot of flamers and meltas really good, and so encourages their use over just spamming oblits or vindicators. It also discourages using them as actual heavy weapon troopers. It can still be done, but as it isn't as fluffy as the other options it is discouraged by the point cost, but not prohited. In summary, the whole point of this is to make units like terminators and raptors good enough that they could actually be used for something other than 3 man combi melta suicide squads or 5 man tank hunter squads.

 

The thousand sons are the major abberation. Their upgrade cost is a lot lower. This is because thousand sons are pretty bad. Yes twin-linked ap3 bolters are beastly, but they are actually less beastly than the all combi melta or plasma a lot of people are going to take. The cheap champion upgrades encourages people to do things like take a full squad of aspiring sorcerer terminators, which gets really point heavy really fast. You are right though about the havocs. I intended for them to be one of the restricted units but forget to put them on the list.

 

I.E. Terminators can outflank for +1 points per model.

 

Yup. Or they can deepstrike for free. Deepstriking is risky yeah, but outflanking also has problems. Deepstrike you risk owning yourself, outflank you risk coming in somewhere useless and missing the fight. Can you really afford for your terminators to come in on the wrong board edge? Somtimes there is no right board edge. The risk vs reward is already adjusted by the price of the unit. The price of the skill doesn't have to be.

 

Why? There is no reason why regular Chaos Marines, even Veterans, should not retreat when the odds are stacked against them. Unlike their loyalist counterparts, Chaos Marines fight for their own goals, not for a greater cause. When they are badly beaten, they will retreat.

 

Also, it had allways been the trait of Chaos Veterans that they can infiltrate. That's how they were in 2nd and 3rd Edition, and how they are now. The 3.5 Codex replaced the basic Veteran rules with an optional veteran ability of your own choice. Infiltration is their traditional and fluffy trait.

 

Because i think they should be. Yes, they retreat when the odds are against them. This is well represented by you moving the other direction when an elite CC unit comes at you. This is fearless, not berserker. Fearless doesn't mean you charge suicidally into the enemy. It means you don't chicken out, run, and get sweeping advanced like a dumb guardsmen. When Chaos are badly beaten they make a skilled, effective exit. They don't run like scared kids and get owned in the process. So fearless.

 

I actually didn't know that they had infiltrate in previous codexes. My decision to remove it was based on wanting them to be like regular marines but with a lot more weapon options, which is how they are mainly represented in the current codex anyway. I figured i'd leave the infiltrating to the alpha legion.

 

I.E. you want "Chaos" to be reliable and predictable. Boring!

 

I find it amusing that you mention things from previous codexes, and then complain about me removing the random element which is brand new in this codex and hasn't been in the last few. Chaos isn't about being random. Chaos is about high risks vs high rewards. Or in the case of my possessed changes, high point costs vs high rewards.

 

Same as with Veterans. There is no reason why they should be fearless.

 

Other than them being the most elite of the already super elite ten thousand year old marines with the blessings of the dark gods who have seen the horrors or the warp and have nothing to fear in the mortal realm? I think every Chaos marine should be fearless by default, the same way loyalists have atsknf. Atsknf is better than fearless even :/

 

Every other Marine army released since Dark Angels pays 15 points, so should Chaos Marines.

 

Which is why every other marine army uses only powerfists. Show me a tournament list using a power weapon or fist on an aspiring champion. These cost changes mirror the changes in the new guard codex actually. Power weapons and plasma pistols are overpriced and not worth using at 15pts each. Just because everybody else has them at a silly price doesn't mean we should. I'd change it for everyone if i could.

 

The point with Raptors is that, similar to Land Speeders and Plasma Cannons, Jump Pack units were not used, or rare, during the great crusade and the heresy. In 2nd Edition Chaos Space Marines did not have any jump pack units at all. In 3rd Edition GW had mercy and gave them the specialised Raptors. But still in 3E and 3.5E they were a 0-1 choice. In the current Codex GW has probably dropped the 0-1 limitation to allow variant armies such as the Night Lords to be built with this Codex (similar why they included Vindicators and unlimited Daemon choices to allow Iron Warriors and Word Bearers). If you want to be fluffy, you limit them to 0-1 again, except perhaps for Night Lords.

Also, if loyalist Assault Marines and Berserkers do not get special CCW upgrade, neither should Raptors.

 

The recent Horus Heresy books have pretty much retconned all that. The legions had plenty of jump packs according to them. There's also no reason stuff like this couldn't be developed by the Dark Mechanicus. My reasoning for my change is much simpler though: This is how its already presented in the codex. But the "Raptors" of this codex are not the Raptors of the fluff, so the name isn't right. I'm not going to try to change the codex makeup. If you have fluff issues with it, its Gav's fault.

 

Loyalist marines are cheaper, have atsknf, and a lot of nice options on their sergeants. I figured raptors needed something. They already have the option for special ranged weaponry, so i figured letting them take special melee weapons instead would just encourage their use in CC roles more, as currently their best use is as 5 man double melta tank hunting squads. And berserkers are cheaper and scoring.

 

Your cult unit rules made the icons redundant anyway.

 

Not everyone plays cult armies. The Icon changes will allow for viable non-traitor lists.

 

As I have described above, jump pack units should be limited. They should not be troops.

 

Here i am merely copying the conventions of newer codexes to allow an elite or fast attack option to be a troop or scoring based on an HQ choice. Plenty of new dexes have them and nobody has complained about them being overpowered. Why not us?