How to fix Chaos in 2 pages.

[Night Lord Dred]

The argument against being fearless is grasping at straws. Chaos Marines all have their individual reasons for staying in the fight. When their goal is daemonhood, running from a battle pretty much ensures they will never reach that goal.

 

Since Im most familiar with them, I know that the NLs would have to be fearless. They dont have the powers the other legions rely on. Fear is their weapon, and if NLs themselves were to start running in fear from battles, they would lose their best weapon and reputation of being terrifying relentless warriors.

 

It also makes no sense having Lords, Sorcs and Princes being fearless then. They are still individuals. What about cult troops? Khorne and Tzeentch is obvious, but why the other marines?

 

The tabletop also doesnt fit the fluff. Being overwhelmed is what Spaces Marines do. In fluff a single space marine can take on a hundred orks.

 

Gameplay also doesnt make sense. A CSM squad with IoCG will almost never run from being shot at. They can be barraged with artillery over and over and over again and they simply wont run. However, in CC if they lose 3 guys they suddenly become susceptible to fear?

 

Each Legion/Marine has their own reasons for staying in the fight. Running in fear is unacceptable. What is to happen to the marine after they desert? Theyll fit back into the legion for the next mission?

[incinerator950]

Dude I've been trying to discuss with him about fearless, lets not drag the dead mule further.

 

I already can tell someone is going to try and use the "Jump packs are Rare" argument for why we can't be using them frequently now.

 

Edit: As someone on an Epic Armageddon forum said, the fluff changes to meet the new rules of gaming, and it's usually pretty bad. However, I agree with you, except for Demon Princes...it really shouldn't be explained why they are fearless when it's obvious.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah, Legatus seems to think that the rule is "Tacticless" or "Lack of Self Preservation". Its not. Its Fearless.

[Legatus]

Yes it makes world eater terminators really strong. They should be. With upgrades they'll be pushing 50 points a model you realize though.

It's 36 points for a WS5, 3 Attacks, Furious Charge Terminator with a power weapon. 46 points for a powerfist Terminator. That is not really appropriate. Neither are 35 point Thousand Sons Terminators.

 

Deepstriking is risky yeah, but outflanking also has problems. Deepstrike you risk owning yourself, outflank you risk coming in somewhere useless and missing the fight. Can you really afford for your terminators to come in on the wrong board edge?

Well, you would only pay 111 points for three Berserker Terminators. With their 12 Attacks on the charge they would kill 5-6 MEQ models on average.

 

Yes, they retreat when the odds are against them. This is well represented by you moving the other direction when an elite CC unit comes at you.

It is also well represented by a unit failing a morale test and making a "fighting retreat" as it is described in the rulebook.

 

Fearless doesn't mean you charge suicidally into the enemy. It means you don't chicken out, run, and get sweeping advanced like a dumb guardsmen.

No, fearless usually means that the unit has left all worldly considerations behind them and are dedicated entirely to the cause. In case of cult units that cause is usually madness. In case of Deathwing or Wraithguard it is for the good of their agenda/chapter/craftworld masters. NL/IW/AL/BL Terminators do not have such an agenda they would gladly give their lives for. They fight for wealth/power/satisfaction.

 

I find it amusing that you mention things from previous codexes, and then complain about me removing the random element which is brand new in this codex and hasn't been in the last few.

You have not looked at the 3rd Edition Codex for some time appearently, but you did mention that you are not so familiar with previous Codices in your comment about veterans.

 

Same as with Veterans. There is no reason why they should be fearless.

Other than them being the most elite of the already super elite ten thousand year old marines with the blessings of the dark gods who have seen the horrors or the warp and have nothing to fear in the mortal realm?

Hence their exceptional Leadership value of 10. They are not easy to shake, but they will not put their lives on the line if there is no hope of winning.

 

These cost changes mirror the changes in the new guard codex actually.

With "changes" you mean "price increase"? Well, Plasma Pistols did cost the same in the previous Codex IG, but powerweapons went up by +5 points. Imperial Guard pay less for some weapons because it makes a difference whether a WS4/5 and S4 Space Marine is swinging them or whether it's a WS3/4 and S3 Guardsman. See my point about relative costs for rules/items/upgrades for cult upgrades above.

 

The recent Horus Heresy books have pretty much retconned all that.

The Horus Heresy books are not really in the position to retcon anything, and if you check the Codex Space Marines description it still describes jump pack troops as having been rare during the crusade/heresy.

 

Here i am merely copying the conventions of newer codexes to allow an elite or fast attack option to be a troop or scoring based on an HQ choice. Plenty of new dexes have them and nobody has complained about them being overpowered. Why not us?

Because it should make at least a bit of sense?

 

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The argument against being fearless is grasping at straws.

Right.

 

Since Im most familiar with them, I know that the NLs would have to be fearless.

It is very rare that the Night Lords voluntarily fight a force able to withstand them; they much prefer to attack the weak and frightened.

- Index Astartes Night Lords, Combat Doctrine

 

Yeah, they should totally be fearless... ;)

 

What about cult troops? Khorne and Tzeentch is obvious, but why the other marines?

You mean Plague Marines and Noise Marines? :o

 

Running in fear is unacceptable.

Turns out Chaos Marines are not quite as noble as you might think...

 

 

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Yeah, Legatus seems to think that the rule is "Tacticless" or "Lack of Self Preservation". Its not. Its Fearless.

Some people think that failing a morale test and falling back means the unit is running like chicken. Such people need to check their rulebook for a description of how it is supposed to represent an ordered and fighting retreat to a more advantageous fall back position.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It's 36 points for a WS5, 3 Attacks, Furious Charge Terminator with a power weapon. 46 points for a powerfist Terminator. That is not really appropriate. Neither are 35 point Thousand Sons Terminators.

 

If you are going to say something isn't appropriate, you need to say why. Feel free to make suggestions as to what would make them appropriate as well. You are right that those terminators are pretty cheap. But you can't just look at them in a vacuum when the modification is to the entire army list.

 

Well, you would only pay 111 points for three Berserker Terminators. With their 12 Attacks on the charge they would kill 5-6 MEQ models on average.

 

What do berserker terminators have to do with outflanking/infiltrating terminators? And yes, they will. How do you propose to get them there? 3 terminators can be shot down easily if they deepstrike or footslog. If you are using more, suddenly thats a lot of points vulnerable to a plasma cannon. If you are using a raider, its a whole different issue.

 

It is also well represented by a unit failing a morale test and making a "fighting retreat" as it is described in the rulebook.

 

Failing a morale test and running off the board isn't a tactical retreat. Its deserting. Chaos marines don't do this.

 

No, fearless usually means that the unit has left all worldly considerations behind them and are dedicated entirely to the cause. In case of cult units that cause is usually madness. In case of Deathwing or Wraithguard it is for the good of their agenda/chapter/craftworld masters. NL/IW/AL/BL Terminators do not have such an agenda they would gladly give their lives for. They fight for wealth/power/satisfaction.

 

Says who? You have your own ideas of what rules match with what fluff explanation. So far they arn't matching with what the rest of us think.

 

Hence their exceptional Leadership value of 10. They are not easy to shake, but they will not put their lives on the line if there is no hope of winning.

 

LD 10 may have been enough to represent Chaos Marines in the past, when on average everybody had lower leadership. But now even guardsmen can easily be running around with LD 10 and stubborn. In the current incarnation guardsmen are often harder to make run than chaos marines. You think that is right? I don't. What these rules mean now isn't the same as previous editions. So fearless.

 

With "changes" you mean "price increase"? Well, Plasma Pistols did cost the same in the previous Codex IG, but powerweapons went up by +5 points. Imperial Guard pay less for some weapons because it makes a difference whether a WS4/5 and S4 Space Marine is swinging them or whether it's a WS3/4 and S3 Guardsman. See my point about relative costs for rules/items/upgrades for cult upgrades above

 

I saw your points about relative cost. I also adressed them, and this issue. Feel free to do the math hammer on it. Everybody knows 15 point powerweapons and plasma pistols suck. 10 point makes them worth taking somtimes, but you are still mostly going to use fists or nothing.

 

The Horus Heresy books are not really in the position to retcon anything, and if you check the Codex Space Marines description it still describes jump pack troops as having been rare during the crusade/heresy.

 

Are you claiming that the Horus Heresy books are less cannon than old codexes? Old codexes are not cannon either. The only thing that is cannon is the current codex and rulebook, and they do not support your claims.

 

Because it should make at least a bit of sense?

 

Makes perfect sense to me. You are going to have to show that it doesn't make sense.

 

 

Overall Legatus, you are presenting your opinions as fact without support. This is irratating. Either bring in some relevant support to show how your opinions are any more accurate than the rest of ours, or please refrain from re-posting them. We get that you don't agree with all of this. Thats fine, and i do not think less of you for it. I do think less of you for accusing me of making no sense without an explanation of why.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Upon further consideration, i think you do have a point on the fearless Legatus. The way i am seeing it is that, after so many fights, Chaos vets aren't going to lose their heads in combat. They are able to stay calm and in control. They would do tactical retreats, and they wouldn't charge blindly into incoming fire. But they also wouldn't break and run like guardsmen because even if they escaped, the powers they serve would not approve, and it is better to die on the battlefield than face an angry chaos lord.

 

Really, the thing that best represents all this is ATSKNF. But that can't be used as it is strictly a loyalist thing. This has never made sense to me. That Emperor created space marines to never feel fear. They didn't feel fear during the crusade, before all the zeal and stuff was a part of it. There isn't a good reason for Chaos marines to have lost this as it is a biological part of them, not a psychological. Nevertheless, in game terms it is loyalist only.

 

There is a halfway point though. I don't think chaos marines are blindly going to rush into incoming fire. That is truly reserved for the lunatics. However, i do think that if they were engaged in a close combat they would know that it is better to keep fighting then to break and run and get swept/shot in the back. Once they are engaged in CC its all or nothing.

 

So, i am changing it to be fearless only in close combat on chosen and terminators, the same way as black templars have.

[Night Lord Dred]

Legatus seems to be playing the devil's advocate here and bringing in non sensible arguments, combined with an annoying posting format. He doesnt even seem to quote the important parts, nor does his replies to the less important points do much in the way of furthering the discussion beyond "No youre wrong and Im right <insert random insignificant quote>".

 

Until you acknowledge points properly, dont expect a reply from me Legatus.

[Legatus]

If you are going to say something isn't appropriate, you need to say why. Feel free to make suggestions as to what would make them appropriate as well. You are right that those terminators are pretty cheap. But you can't just look at them in a vacuum when the modification is to the entire army list.

I cannot say how expensive a WS5, 3A, furious charge Terminator should be without playtesting. What I can say by comparing them to other, similar units (like regular Terminators) is that they are too cheap for what they can do. Also, since you intended the "Black Legion" to still be able to take any cult units as desired, it still has to be considered as "anything goes", so with only selected cult units in an otherwise regular chaos army with 15 pts. Marines and heavy support available.

 

What do berserker terminators have to do with outflanking/infiltrating terminators?

Right, my bad. It was for AL only. Still, my question would remain, why should Terminators of all units be able to outflank or infiltrate? Terminators were specifically forbidden to infiltrate in the 3.5 Codex Chaos, and Space Wolves Wolf Guard have been errataed to not be allowed to join Scout squads.

 

Failing a morale test and running off the board isn't a tactical retreat. Its deserting. Chaos marines don't do this.

Aside from the fluff discussion, I could point toward the previous three chaos codices where they did do that. I understand that you would like if undivided Chaos Terminators and Veterans were fearless. But they never were, and it is not really justified in the fluff. There is no justification why they should now become fearless.

 

Says who? You have your own ideas of what rules match with what fluff explanation. So far they arn't matching with what the rest of us think.

It is matching with the past Editions of Chaos Codices. But then the whole point of this thread is about how GW is wrong.

 

LD 10 may have been enough to represent Chaos Marines in the past, when on average everybody had lower leadership. But now even guardsmen can easily be running around with LD 10 and stubborn. In the current incarnation guardsmen are often harder to make run than chaos marines. You think that is right?

I don't. And I don't think it's the case. Only Commissar Lords are LD 10 stubborn. Regular Commissars are only LD 9, and if you want one in every unit it will get expensive quick. An IG squad is 50 pts. The commisar you can give them is 35 pts. I doubt you will ever see as many commisar units as you will see Chaos Glory units.

 

Are you claiming that the Horus Heresy books are less cannon than old codexes?

Right now I am claiming that the Horus Heresy books are less canon than teh current Codex, which I did suggest you check out.

 

Within the Space Marine Legions, jump packs were comparatively rare, but such was the effectiveness of these assault troops that their commitment to battle was often proved to be a turning point.

- 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 34

 

But yes, I am hereby also claiming that the Horus Heresy books (or any BL book for that matter) are less canon than old Codices.

 

Overall Legatus, you are presenting your opinions as fact without support. This is irratating. Either bring in some relevant support to show how your opinions are any more accurate than the rest of ours, or please refrain from re-posting them. We get that you don't agree with all of this. Thats fine, and i do not think less of you for it. I do think less of you for accusing me of making no sense without an explanation of why.

For "Fearless undivided Terminators and Veterans": See any Codex Chaos Space Marines. They never were Fearless. For what motivates Chaos Space Marines, see any Codex Chaos Space Marines or relevant CSM Legion Index Astartes.

 

Once proud and majestic warriors armoured with faith and armed with righteousness, the Chaos Space Marines are now bitter, selfish champions of dark, hungry gods, with no cause other than personal ambition and the increase of their own power.

- 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 4

 

For "Raptors as Troops": See any Codex Chaos Space Marines. Rules as well as fluff. I have provided a relevant quote further above.

 

 

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Edit:

Really, the thing that best represents all this is ATSKNF. But that can't be used as it is strictly a loyalist thing. This has never made sense to me. That Emperor created space marines to never feel fear. They didn't feel fear during the crusade, before all the zeal and stuff was a part of it. There isn't a good reason for Chaos marines to have lost this as it is a biological part of them, not a psychological. Nevertheless, in game terms it is loyalist only.

Loyal Space Marines fight for the cause, for the Emperor and for humanity. Chaos Space Marines fight for their own goals. They have no reason to sacrifice themselves. That is not to say that loyalosts would needlessly go to their death, but they do "put a little more effort in it". It was established in 2nd Edition (I am not that familiar with 1st, only superficially, and more in fluff terms than rules) that loyalists have a special morale rule, while chaos marines have more lose unit formations. In 2nd Edition, Marine units were either 5 or 10 men strong, with Terminators and Scouts specifically being only 5 men each. Chaos Space Marine Squads were variable, and Terminator and Veteran squads could be between 3 and 10 men strong (IIRC).

In 3rd Edition GW has losened up the unit formations for loyalists (Jervis tried to bring back the stricter structure with DA and BA, but Matt Ward did not adopt it for Codex Space Marines, unfortunately IMHO). Since then Chaos Marines have been distinguished mostly by the more varied equipment (first it was either Boltgun or CCWs for CSM squads, as well as more special weapons instead of heavies, now it is even Boltgun plus CCWs).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Just for fun, here are the numbers of my suggested world eater terminators vs loyalist assault terminators.

 

5 Worldeater Terminators with the cult upgrade, a powerfist, and a pair of claws = 200 points.

 

5 Assault terminators with thunderhammer/stormshield = 200 points.

 

World Eaters Charge: 8 tl-bolter shots, 12 power weapon attacks, 6 lightning claw attacks, 4 fist attacks.

 

Bolters: 6 hit after re-roll, 3 wound. .5 kills.

 

Power Weapons: 8 hit, 5.33 wounds. 1.78 kills.

 

Claws: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 kills.

 

Total before Assault terminators strike: 3.28 kills.

 

Power Fist: 2.67 hits, 2.22 wounds, .75 kills.

 

Total Overall: 4.03 kills.

 

Assault Terminators hit back:

 

65% of the Assault Terminators are dead, so i'll give them 35% of their attacks. Or 3.5

 

Thunderhammers: 1.75 hit, 1.458 wounds, 1.215 kills.

 

Conclusion: World Eater terminators win by a good deal if they get the charge.

 

 

Assault Terminators Charge: 15 thunderhammer attacks, but World Eaters strike first.

 

9 Power Weapon Attacks: 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 kill.

 

4 Claws: 2.667 hits, 2 wounds, 1.33 kills.

 

Total = 2.33 kills.

 

53.4% of 15 = 8 Thunderhammers: 4 hit, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 kills.

 

3 Powerfist Attacks: 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, .55 kills.

 

Totals: World Eaters = 2.88 kills, Assault Terminators = 2.22 kills.

 

World Eater Terminators win by a narrow margin, but strike at I1 next turn due to thunderhammers. This is kind of a big deal, so here's the next round of combat. Combat resolution not included as its close enough that its probably a tie. Will assume that the world eaters that died are regular powerweapon guys, but that does bias this towards them slightly.

 

9 - 24.66% = 6.78 Power Weapon Attacks: 4.52 hits, 2.26 wounds, .75 kills.

 

4 Claws: 2.667 hits, 2 wounds, 1.33 kills.

 

3 Powerfist Attacks: 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, .55 kills.

 

53.4% of 10 = 4.66 Thunderhammers: 2.33 hits, 1.941 wounds, 1.29 kills.

 

World Eaters Total: 2.63

 

Assault Terminator Total: 1.29

 

World Eaters total for whole combat: 5.51 kills.

 

Assault Terminator Total: 3.51 Kills.

 

 

Conclusion

 

So, the World Eaters win in either scenario. The question is, should they? They have superior CC power, but they are considerably weaker against vehicles and shooting. They are about 50% better in CC depending on the charge when killing things with a high invul. They will kills MEQs and hordes better.

 

Now that i have some numbers to base it off of, i'm going to go with the cautious route and increase the cost of the World Eaters cult upgrade by 2 points. In a small-medium sized army this will mean at least 1 less terminator in that CC squad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Right, my bad. It was for AL only. Still, my question would remain, why should Terminators of all units be able to outflank or infiltrate? Terminators were specifically forbidden to infiltrate in the 3.5 Codex Chaos, and Space Wolves Wolf Guard have been errataed to not be allowed to join Scout squads.

 

That is an interesting point and one i was not aware of. I certainly see the argument for it as well. That said, i don't think its a huge deal if they did, but i also don't think its huge if they don't. I'm going to change it to be power armored only though.

 

 

I am not trying to make this work like previous codexes. I am trying to have it work with the vision of chaos as i feel it is presented in this codex, and as simply as possible. I am aware that this is highly subjective, which is why i am attempting to present my reasoning and also asked you for your own. Thank you for giving me more of it. To avoid looking like i am contradicting myself, i'm agreeing that terminators shouldn't have infiltrate/outflank not because thats how it was done before, but because being stealthy in terminator armor is kind of ridiculous. I still feel that fearless (in close combat) better represents Chaos than not having it. LD 10 just seems too weak to me, mainly because i just can't see Chaos Marines getting sweeping advanced. Perhaps i should tone it down more so that they will break and run from combat, but if sweeping advanced just take no-retreat wounds instead of dying. Do you have any thoughts on that?

 

Thank you for your continued posts. I am interested in your opinions. My original posting is hardly perfect, as you can see from the adjustments made after i crunched some numbers.

[Brother Amarel]

Possessed: (...) May take one of the following abilities for the indicated cost per model: Scouts (1), Fleet (2), Furious Charge(2), Feel No Pain(3), Rending (4), Power Weapons (6).

I.E. you want "Chaos" to be reliable and predictable. Boring!

Much more fun to have a unit that is never used, right? There's enough randomness in this game already without the Elite troops throwing you a potential curve ball on their abilities every game.

[Legatus]

World Eater Terminators win by a narrow margin, but strike at I1 next turn due to thunderhammers.

Thunderhammers only affect models that suffered an unsaved wound by them, so basically only against monstrous creatures and eternal warriors who could actually survive taking a Thunderhammer wound. The World Eaters in that example would still strike with their normal initiative.

 

Just for the fun of it, how would 5 Assault Terminators and 5 Khorne Terminators do against a mob of 30 Orks with Powerfist? Well, not charging the Assault Terminators would 4-5 to choppas and 0-1 to the Nob. The Berserkers (3 PW, 1 TLLC, 1 PF) would intitially kill 5, then also lose 4 to choppas and 0-1 to the Nob, but if the Powerfist Berserker survives he can killanother 2.

If the Terminators charged, the loyalists would lose 2-3 to choppas and 0-1 to the nob before perhaps killing 3 Ork. The Berserker Terminators would kill about 8 Orks initially, then suffer 2 losses, before the powerfist kills another 2-3 Orks, winning by about 8 and killing about as many further Orks due to them being fearless.

 

Edit:

To avoid looking like i am contradicting myself, i'm agreeing that terminators shouldn't have infiltrate/outflank not because thats how it was done before, but because being stealthy in terminator armor is kind of ridiculous.

I assume that's why they could not infiltrate in previous Codices. ^_^

 

To be fair, the Current Codex Space Marines allows outflanking Terminators with the use of the Special Character "Khan". Though I do not use special characters and rarely base my opinion of an armies strength on them, and in case of the current Codex Space Marines I feel that the entire "Special Characters = special army wide rules" is not particularly well done.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I should really have double checked thunderhamer rules before i spend time doing math >_> I thought it was if a squad suffers a wound they hit at I1 next turn. Oh well, most of that math is still useful. I'm still standing by my 8 pts for the time being. It makes the terminators brutal but causes other units to suffer in efficiency, which i think is better than giving every unit/type its own cost for it as this normalizes stuff too much, and normalization = boring.

[Arikromus]

I will admit, this is pretty impressive. It has its flaws, of course, but it's still pretty impressive. Just a note, you describe Assault Squads in some of them. I don't see any Assault squads in the Chaos Codex. :D

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I will admit, this is pretty impressive. It has its flaws, of course, but it's still pretty impressive. Just a note, you describe Assault Squads in some of them. I don't see any Assault squads in the Chaos Codex. :D

 

You missed where i changed Raptors to Assault Squads :)

[DuskRaider]

You know, I've been thinking about this and I think I came up with some good ways to represent at least the Legions I use.... Let me know what you think.

 

Death Guard:

 

HQ

Daemon Prince: See Codex: Daemons

 

Chaos Lord: Mark of Nurgle (+1 Toughness, -1 Initiative), FNP (if in PA), Blight Grenades. If in TDA, Lord gets Aura of Decay. Lords can have a Plague Sword, which is a Power Weapon that wounds on a 2+, for 20 points. Basic cost of Lord is increased by 20 pts.

 

Sorcerers: See Lords. In addition, if they take TDA, they also get Aura of Decay, so Nurgle's Rot is then not counted toward their Psyker Ability (as AoD is actually not a psyker ability, but works the same as Nurgle's Rot). Basic cost of Lord is increased by 20 pts.

 

 

ELITES

 

Chosen: Mark of Nurgle (+1 T, -1 I), Fearless, FNP, and Blight Grenades. All have Plague Knives (Wound on 4+). Champion may have Aura of Decay for 20 pts. Champion may take Plague Sword (Power Weapon, Wounds on 2+) for 25 pts. May only take Assault Weapons or CC Weapons. Basic cost is now 28 pts each. Champion is free if Squad takes Sacred Number organization (7).

 

Terminators: Mark of Nurgle I(+1 T, -1 I), Fearless, Plague Swords (PW, wounds on 2+), and Blight Grenades. Champion may have Aura of Decay for 20 pts. Basic Cost is now 38 pts. Champion if free is Squad takes Sacred Number Organization (7).

 

Dreadnoughts: On a Roll of 1, The Dreadnought either shoots the closest enemy unit, or the Rot within causes the power to fail and does nothing (if no enemies in range). Dreadnoughts may have Aura of Decay for 20 pts.

 

Possessed: Mark of Nurgle (+1 T, -1 I), Fearless, Plague Knives (wound on 4+), FNP, and Blight Grenades. Champion may have Aura of Decay for 20 pts. Champion may take Plague Sword for 25 pts. If FNP is rolled on Mutation Chart, FNP becomes 3+. Basic cost is now 34 pts each.

 

 

TROOPS

 

Plague Marines: Same as Codex: Chaos Space Marines, except now all Plague Marines have Plague Knives (Wound on 4+). Champion may have Aura of Decay for 20 pts. Champion may take Plague Sword (PW, wounds on 2+) for 25 pts. Basic Cost is now 30 pts. Champion is free if Squad takes Sacred Number Organization (7).

 

Rhinos are still Dedicated Troop Transports, but maybe also take Aura of Decay for 20 pts.

 

FAST ATTACK

 

There is none. HAH!

 

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Havocs: Mark of Nurgle (+1 T, -1 I), Fearless, Blight Grenades. All Havocs have Plague Knives (Wounds on 4+). Champion may take Aura of Decay for 20 pts. Champion may take Plague Sword (PW, wounds on 2+) for 25 pts. Champion is free if Squad takes Sacred Number Organization (7). Basic cost is now 25 pts.

 

All Vehicles may take Aura of Decay for 20 pts.

 

 

That's how I see it working out well. Yeah, some things may seem powerful, but they're also expensive, which would mean the army would be a lot smaller. Anyhow, I'll write one up for World Eaters tomorrow... A bit tired now, lol.

[the jeske]

guys as terminator goes . it doesnt matter how much better the zerker ones are as there is not 12 capacity transport for them [like the TH termis have or the SW/BT ones]. 5 man in one squad is not enough models for a hth unit . But if someone sitll feels that they are over powered do the most simple thing . Troop choice with mark X costs Y points , elite/FA/hvy support with mark X vosts 2xY . with cult terminators and normal terminators in the same dex we would effectivlly get two different units. normal terminators would still be best used as termicid while cult ones like 1ksons ones or NM would be used in one 6-8[+1sorc for the 1ksons] man squad to make their weapons effective [because 3 sonics or 3 ap 3 shots with str 4 are crap] , they would also be a high risk unit . they would be big and easy to target .

[Legatus]

I almost forgot: Chaos already has specialised units that are made Troops. In the previous two Codices the cult units were allways an Elite choice, and only if the Lord had the same Mark they could be taken as a Troops choice. In a Way Chaos was the first (together with DA Deathwing and Ravenwing) to have that mechanic. But even if you had a Lord with Mark of Khorne, the PMs would still have been an Elite choice. The current Codex has changed that and has simply made all cult units a Troops choice instead.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I almost forgot: Chaos already has specialised units that are made Troops. In the previous two Codices the cult units were allways an Elite choice, and only if the Lord had the same Mark they could be taken as a Troops choice. In a Way Chaos was the first (together with DA Deathwing and Ravenwing) to have that mechanic. But even if you had a Lord with Mark of Khorne, the PMs would still have been an Elite choice. The current Codex has changed that and has simply made all cult units a Troops choice instead.

 

Thats great if you are cult!

 

The reasons i included that bit to allow people to take a bike or jumppack squad as troops is to allow more speed themed lists. Its also the reason i left nightlords bike/jump themed despite them really being terror themed. It allows a new army style, and gives them a distinctly different play style from other legions. The scoring units when you take those sorts of lords accomplishes 2 things. First, it encourages the use of lords not just DPs. Second, it allows chaos some freedom to do faster lists like orks and loyalists can in their latest incarnations. But note that i didn't give them the thing that loyalists have where taking a bike captain lets the any number of bike squads be taken as troops.

[Legatus]

The reason why Orks and Marines get certain units alternatively as Troops is that in all the recent Codices GW has summarised all the previously variant lists into one single list. Orks previously had clans like Speed Freeks, Blood Axes or Snake Bites which allowed the construction of very different lists. Similarly the Space Marines had White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. It is the same with the Eldar and their Craft Worlds. All the variant armies can now be constructed out of the basic list, which is why all the recent codices included a lot of new choices or changes to the previous Codices. It is why Eldar can now take Jetbikes or Wraitguard as Troops, why Orks get Weirdboys, Trukks for Troops and do not have a limit on looted Tanks, and why Space Marines got the Master of the Forge (IH), Bikes as Troops (WS) and Veteran Assault Squads (RG). Needless to say, in all those cases the players protested the lack of variant lists. It is the same with Chaos, which now includes cult Troops, cult Icons, Vindicators and no limit on Daemons and Raptors.

 

There usually is a fluff reason why they get certain units as Troops. For Space Marine Bikes it is because of the White Scars. For Ork Trukks it is because of Speed Freaks. For Eldar Jetbikes it is because of Saim-Hann. But why should Chaos Space Marines get Bikes or Raptors as Troops? The Night Lords were described in the Index Astartes as having a lot of Fast Attack units (to represent their favoured combat doctrine of quick and decisive strikes), but that amounted to filling up all the Fast Attack slots. They did not use pure or mainly bike/raptor armies like White Scars, Speed Freeks or Saim-Hann are known for. In those cases you can find a justification why they would get such Troops. For Chaos I have difficulty finding it.

[the jeske]

In those cases you can find a justification why they would get such Troops.

because if they are not scoring , they are worthless . they cost too much points for they can do and when compared to other units that can fill they role they are even weaker [ termicid going tank hunting or oblits etc] . techniclly even in the dex we have now one can take 3 units of raptors or 3 units of bikes. only no one does [even people who are NL players], because its better to take a csm squad . Also fluffwise NL had full companies of jump pack armed troops. Those were a lot more men , then BA have and BA can take assault sm as troops.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Night Lords were described in the Index Astartes as having a lot of Fast Attack units (to represent their favoured combat doctrine of quick and decisive strikes), but that amounted to filling up all the Fast Attack slots.

 

What Index Astartes did you read? The Index Astartes mentions they prefer terror tactics, sometimes creating nuclear winters, and they preffered using overwhelming force, obliterating whoever they faced. It didn't really mention lots of Fast Attack.

[Legatus]

because if they are not scoring , they are worthless

In 1/3 of the missions it would be beneficial if they were scoring. In 2/3 it does not really matter that much.

 

Also fluffwise NL had full companies of jump pack armed troops. Those were a lot more men , then BA have and BA can take assault sm as troops.

Fluff wise jump packs were rare during the heresy, and a company back then was 100 men just like today. Some Legions used grand companies, but others used chapters, which in turn were divided into companies, which was used as the new form for independent Marine formations after the heresy.

 

What Index Astartes did you read? The Index Astartes mentions they prefer terror tactics, sometimes creating nuclear winters, and they preffered using overwhelming force, obliterating whoever they faced. It didn't really mention lots of Fast Attack.

"decisive force" is easily trandlated into blitzkrieg tactics where the enemy is not given time to react and mobilise his defense. Unfortunately the Index Astartes books do not include the rules bits, which IIRC granted Night Lords an additional Fast Attack slot and removed the limitation for Raptors.

In 3rd and 4th Edition there were special missions besides the standard missions, and tehy used different force organistaion charts. In a "Raid", the defender was limited to only 1 HQ, Elite and Fast Attack and 2 Heavy Support, while the Attacker was limited to 1 Heavy Support, 5 Troops but could still get 3 Fast Attack and Elite units. IIRC in planetstrike the attackers favour Fast Attack and Elite units as well, and not so much Heavy Support units, which are more used for the defender. If Fast Attack units are representing an attacking force, then it makes sense that the Night Lords would have more Fast Attack units than Heavy Support units.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

As jeske said, so that those units will be worth using. There are a potentially infinite number of chaos warbands with much less rigid organizational structures than loyalists have to deal with. This now would give people the option to play a speed themed one without having to play nightlords. You think that is bad?

[Legatus]

I am saying there are very prominent factions for Space marines, Eldar and Orks that make mainly use of bikes or fast units, so there is justification to have such a Troop option in their summarised "one list for all" Codex. There are a lot of things that might possibly exist somewhere, but I don't think any of the known and prominent Chaos factions need Bikes as Troops to faithfully be represented.