How to fix Chaos in 2 pages.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I am saying there are very prominent factions for Space marines, Eldar and Orks that make mainly use of bikes or fast units, so there is justification to have such a Troop option in their summarised "one list for all" Codex. There are a lot of things that might possibly exist somewhere, but I don't think any of the known and prominent Chaos factions need Bikes as Troops to faithfully be represented.

 

Okay. So what?

[DeathTyrant]

I definitely agree with Thousand Sons Dreads not being Crazed!

[Legatus]

Okay. So what?

They get those choices because the fluff states that they make heavy or mainly use of them. Dark Angels get Terminators as Troops because of their famous "all terminators" company. Space Marines get Bikes as Troops because some of the Chapters that are played with that Codex use a lot of Bikes in their battle companies (White Scars). Same with Eldar and Orks. Not the same with the Chaos Legions.

[DuskRaider]

You can't use fluff as a defense at all for this codex, Legatus. Seriously... The "new" codex (it's over 2 years old now) has no fluff at all, the Death Guard are mentioned only in a small story about the Heresy (which every Chaos Codex has had), a small mention about some stupid fortress world, and in the Plague Marine excerpt. What we get the most of is Renegade Chapters and crap that 99% of the Chaos players care little about (most are Legions players).

 

No, no Chaos Legion has ever focused on Bikers (Emperor's Children used Jetbikes extensively, though). Having a character that gave use Bikers as troops would be stupid. On the same level, with the exception of Abbadon and Khârn, our SCs suck anyhow.

[The_Crippster]

On the same level, with the exception of Abbadon and Khârn, our SCs suck anyhow.

 

I disagree, I think all of our special characters are good, however the point costs when compared to what you get with a daemon prince do not make sense.

[the jeske]

ok I dont understand this. they are good , but overcosted comepering to a DP?

I understand the difference between Khan and a bikers cpt. In 1k pts games a cpt is better because he is cheaper[for a biker army]. in anything more khan is better. chaos specials are never better then DPs or even lords no matter what points are played , up to apo lvl , and when we hit apo single non titan model stop to matter much.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Okay. So what?

They get those choices because the fluff states that they make heavy or mainly use of them. Dark Angels get Terminators as Troops because of their famous "all terminators" company. Space Marines get Bikes as Troops because some of the Chapters that are played with that Codex use a lot of Bikes in their battle companies (White Scars). Same with Eldar and Orks. Not the same with the Chaos Legions.

 

What you aren't getting Legatus is that i didn't include that for fluff reasons, i included it for gameplay reasons as mentioned. Fluff isn't the only factor in rules and rules balance. I don't see any reason why Chaos shouldn't be allowed to make a speed army as well. It could represent a renegade white scars successor, or just a rapid strike force of any legion. You are the one who has talked about how you like the options in the current codex despite them being unfluffy, and then you turn around and complain about me adding more of them because they are only a bit fluffy? You'll have to forgive me for being confused by your behavior.

[the jeske]

besides if there are so many renegade chapters and marines aint it possible that some come from a chapter that used a lot of bikes ?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Exactly Jeske.

[Legatus]

You can't use fluff as a defense at all for this codex, Legatus.

In this thread I have mainly used fluff to explain why regular Chaos Marines or even their Terminatirs should not be fearless and why a Chaos Codex should not have the option for Bikes as Troops and especially not for Raptors as Troops. I am not sure how the admittedly lacking fluff content of the current Codex Chaos would detract from those arguments.

 

What you aren't getting Legatus is that i didn't include that for fluff reasons, i included it for gameplay reasons as mentioned. Fluff isn't the only factor in rules and rules balance. I don't see any reason why Chaos shouldn't be allowed to make a speed army as well.

And what I am replying with is that the other Codices have included such options for fluff reasons. Chaos can make an army with 3 jump or bbike units, 3 infiltrating or deep striking units and 2-6 units in Rhinos. Isn't that a "speed army"?

 

You are the one who has talked about how you like the options in the current codex despite them being unfluffy

Which option did I like despite them being unfluffy? I like well equipped Chaos Marines, Berserkers that are not just crazy but better fighters, and I think core undivided with a few cult units represents an average Chaos warband and it would not neccessarily have to be distinct Legion forces only. I think the list can be used to represent the 5 undivided Legions and their preferred doctrines quite adequately, while the cult Legions are a bit worse off, but they each are in some ways less a unified and cohesive force than the undivided Legions are.

 

besides if there are so many renegade chapters and marines aint it possible that some come from a chapter that used a lot of bikes ?

IIRC there have been about 50 in the last 10,000 years.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Which option did I like despite them being unfluffy? I like well equipped Chaos Marines, Berserkers that are not just crazy but better fighters, and I think core undivided with a few cult units represents an average Chaos warband and it would not neccessarily have to be distinct Legion forces only. I think the list can be used to represent the 5 undivided Legions and their preferred doctrines quite adequately, while the cult Legions are a bit worse off, but they each are in some ways less a unified and cohesive force than the undivided Legions are.

 

You mentioned in the other thread something along the lines of liking to be able to use berserkers and (i think) plague marines in your night lords. Both of these are completely unfluffy.

 

And my question stands. Why NOT have them? I see no reason not to allow more options unless they are game breaking or overpowered in some way. The point of chaos is to have more options than the codex restrained loyalists. And this is still less options than they have.

[Legatus]

You mentioned in the other thread something along the lines of liking to be able to use berserkers and (i think) plague marines in your night lords. Both of these are completely unfluffy.

Now you make me quote the fluff again. :o

 

Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of fould Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons. however, it has been ascertained that the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms, whether it be the fanatical bloodlust of the Khornate Berzerkers or the devotion of the Imperial creed. The only authority they recognise is that of temporal power and material wealth.

- Index Astartes Night Lords, "Beliefs"

 

And my question stands. Why NOT have them?

Why have a force organisation chart with different unit type sections at all when it only limits the way you can construct your army?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The Force Organization chart was first invented several editions ago, back before troops were the only scoring units. Do you think it is a coincidence that every 5th edition codex has a way for units that are normally not troops to be taken as either troops or scoring units?

[Legatus]

First of all, no I do not consider it a conincidence. I consider it the result of combiningall the variant lists into one single list. Second of all, in the previous two Chaos Codices the cult units have been Elite choices, where one of the four cults could have been made a Troops choice (CSM cullt units in 3.5) by giving the Lord the same mark. Now they are all Troops by default.

[Night Lord Dred]

Legatus is still grasping at straws. If I have blue CSM and berzerkers, Im not playing Night Lords.

 

Im playing Night Lords and World Eaters, aka black legion.

[Legatus]

The Index Astartes Night Lords must have it wrong then.

[DuskRaider]

It doesn't. Night Lords are quite well known for doing mercenary work for other warbands/Legions. You could do the same in 3.5 (Cult troops as Elites in this case). I think what they're trying to say is while it CAN be done, the actual Night Lords troops aren't really Night Lords. Where's their +1 cover or Night Vision? If you like the new codex, I'm not going to hold it against you. Just realize there's others who wish to have their Legion-specific rules and traits. Chaos Chosen do not a Night Lord (or Alpha Legionnaire) make.

 

Ah well... let's just hope these 2 or 3 years go by quickly and we can forget this abomination that is tearing a rift between us Chaos players. :)

[Hellios]

What about stubborn instead of fearless? combined with Ld10 and maybe even IoCG thats pretty fearsome. If fearless thing is an issue. It shows that chaos marines will run like chickens if being slaughtered (unlike the staunch loyalist marines) but their experience and arrogance will more often than not lead them to carry on and win the day when others might have given up...

 

1) They want to keep face with the other chaos cronies...

2) Many CSM's will fear the masters lash more than the enemies blade if I am honest.

 

 

Also Night lords are not forced to use bikes and jump packs and while maybe not every nightlord has access to them and armies will exist without them many armies will have enough that they can give them to active personnel and it allows them to be a bit different if they wish. and as you say Deathwing has an all terminator company... the Night Lords had multiple assault (with jump packs) companies only they are part of a larger force. Hell blood angels have the normal number of assault marines (excluding vets) however they use them more frequently.

 

Now some people have also questioned if fast units are suitable to NL background and I'll admit a NL army can be Night lord without them and arguments have been made for them made on based on "decisive force" but I would like to look and fear and targeting weak enemies.

 

 

How do you target weak enemies or where the enemies are weak? By being faster, being able to mobilise better and being able to move with less restriction. I think bikes and jump packs help do this. I also think speed is incredibly scary. Hippos not so scary when they are just sitting about on the river bank... that changes when they start hurtling at you at 30MPH. Now imagine the same thing... scary ass 2 metre tall super-human.... now make him flying out of the darkness and coming at you really fast.

 

 

Anyone seen aliens? They are scary fast that is the scariest thing about them and in the dark at a distance you question if you actually saw anything move at all... then suddenly pop goes your head from above. I see the night lords like this.

[the jeske]

The Index Astartes Night Lords must have it wrong then.

 

 

no its not, but its about NL doing merc work for other legions and not how actuall NL warband look like.

 

Also you mention that cult units are fluffy for all undivided chaos armies. Well they are totally unfluffy for WB , extremlly hard to explain with AL , same with NL[kind of a hard to explain in long terms why your loathing your lords god and saying "am a NL, that's how we roll" doesnt help much here]. Its totally fluffy for BL and in fact that is what always made them special . If it was true that all legions and all warbands[and am speaking spirit of the game/fluff here not rules , in rules there are no legions anymore] can run different cults in same force , then what is special thing about BL ?

[Legatus]

What I got out of the Index Astartes description is that the Night Lords are the ones that employ cult forces, not that they are the ones doing work for them. But for the Night Lords they are just tools to use, they do not care for their beliefs.

 

What makes the Black Legion special is that they themselves have different cult within their own Legion. The Night Lords might employ squads of World Eaters Berserkers, while the Black Legion has their own Berserkers.

 

Alliances between chaos groups are rarely close and based on common beliefs. They are not known for their trustworthiness and loyalty after all.

[Lord Khammon]

while the Black Legion has their own Berserkers.

 

Not totally true.

 

Some other Legions fight for the Black Legion. The Skulltakers who are a World Eaters subfaction fight for the Black Legion. They still use the colours of the World Eaters but they add a "Horus Eye" on their armour to show they fight under the command of Abaddon.

[Legatus]

The Skulltakers are a renegade Chapter who have members of the World Eaters Legion among them. They may be allies with the Black Legion, but the Black Legion also has their own Berserkers.

[Lord Khammon]

The Skulltakers are a renegade Chapter who have members of the World Eaters Legion among them. They may be allies with the Black Legion, but the Black Legion also has their own Berserkers.

 

It doesn't change that the Skulltakers are listed as a World Eaters subfaction by Vrak 3 and the fluff about Armageddon.

Even if a few of them where Berzerkers of Kharadon before. Zhufor, their leader was a Storm Lords (White Scars Second Foundation) before he changed allegiance to become a World Eaters.

 

And the Black Legion Berzerkers are created by World Eaters Apothecary recruited by Abaddon.

[Forgerer]

Ok I tried to read all the posts and I did, but that was yesterday so dont remeber what they said. About the fearless issue: Dunno if this has been pointed out but on page 6 it says: "To be a Chaos Space Marine is to feel godlike power over other creatures. Having long since been freed from physical fear, and now from liability, a Chaos Space Marine does not dread retributin or punishment."

[Legatus]

There is not a direct link between not feeling fear and sacrificing one self for the cause. This is what the Necron Codex has to say about them and morale:

 

Necrons don't suffer panic or fear in the same way as other races, but will retreat where circumstances make it logical or advantageous for them to do so.

 

Simply replace "Necrons" with "Chaos Space Marines". Is a Chaos Space Marine affraid to singlehandedly face a full plattoon of Imperial Guard? Probably not. Would he sacrifice himself so that his dear Lord might succeed in his ambitions? Probably not either. He is more likely planning to succeed the Lord at some point.