How to fix Chaos in 2 pages.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yes Legatus. Bu the necrons are a case where they didn't want to give them fearless for gameplay reasons and so wrote some fluff BS. Chaos is the opposite where they don't have fearless for gameplay reasons but the fluff does not match this.

[Legatus]

"Not being affraid" does not eaqual the "fearless" rule. Similar to Chaos Marines and Necrons, loyalist Space Marines supposedly do not fear death or anything else. Yet they can fail morale tests and fall back, can even run off the board. They will fall back to a better position, as will Necrons and Chaos Marines. But other than them, loyal Space Marines will stay and fight even if they have no hope of surviving, because that might buy their brothers the time to complete their task or to wirthdraw safely. Ever since 2nd Edition loyalist Space Marines have had a beneficial morale rule to represent their selfless dedication, while Chaos Marines while lacking such a rule had a more free organisation structure (not to mention nasty special units). Chaos Space Marines are not affraid of overwhelming odds or space monsters, but they will not sacrifice themselves for other Chaos Space Marines. They have a very high morale value, and can even get an additional morale rule in the undivided Chaos Mark, but when they think it would be wiser to fall back, they will fall back.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You've said that a lot of times now.

 

The difference between loyalists and necrons or chaos is that they cannot be swept, always regroup, and have different movement rules after regrouping. This is all huge, and is a big deal from a gameplay perspective. Do you really think 10,000 year old veterans are going to get rundown like guardsmen when their loyalist counterparts don't? How do you justify them not being able to re-group below half strength?

 

Or, how about we just look at the real gameplay results. Show me a top tournament list that has a chaos unit that isn't fearless or Icon of chaos glory? The codex is full of options for non-fearless units but they do not get taken because they suck and do not reflect chaos marines.

 

But whatever, i'm done arguing with you about this. You are practically trolling at this point, and are just re-stating the same stuff over again. I have presented fluff and game play arguments for my stance, and you have quoted some minor fluff that is contradicted by plenty of other fluff. Thanks for derailing the thread though.

[incinerator950]

<3 skubhammer

[Legatus]

You are asking all those questions, but if I answered them I would be trolling...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

That is for Nihm to decide.

[DooshSahaal]

so ANYWAY...

 

i think these rules are fantastic drudge, and tonight i will be asking permission from my gaming buddies to use them (over a few persuasive brews... hehehehe)

 

hopefully they will share my view that the new chaos dex is a bit :cusse and it could use this exact brand of touch-up.

 

oh and.. this might be irrelevant, and i don't plan on arguing about this but, Legatus man, these rules aren't compulsory or a new codex. bickering about them isn't helping anyone. it stopped being constructive ages ago.

 

kudos again for the rules drudge, love em. really accurate representation of chaos, i feel. although i do warm towards what helios said:

 

What about stubborn instead of fearless? combined with Ld10 and maybe even IoCG thats pretty fearsome. If fearless thing is an issue. It shows that chaos marines will run like chickens if being slaughtered (unlike the staunch loyalist marines) but their experience and arrogance will more often than not lead them to carry on and win the day when others might have given up...

 

1) They want to keep face with the other chaos cronies...

2) Many CSM's will fear the masters lash more than the enemies blade if I am honest.

 

anyway that's just my two bob

 

-Doosh

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Thanks Doosh. What i'd suggest doing is for the legion point costs per unit, increase them by 2-3 points per legeion at first (except maybe khorne cause i already raised them). If you are winning easily increase them a bit more, if you are losing decrease a bit. Let me know how it goes.

[Unguis Raptus]

I don't understand why chaos can't just have its own version of ATSKNF.

 

I dunno something like 'Let The Galaxy Burn...'

 

Then I dunno it would have to be something good but new... erm thinking out loud. Okay, Fearless up until a certain point, once the squad drops below 50% strength it has to take checks, if failed squad can regroup, and will not be wiped out by sweeping advance.

[Wolfbiter]

I don't understand why chaos can't just have its own version of ATSKNF.

 

I dunno something like 'Let The Galaxy Burn...'

 

Then I dunno it would have to be something good but new... erm thinking out loud. Okay, Fearless up until a certain point, once the squad drops below 50% strength it has to take checks, if failed squad can regroup, and will not be wiped out by sweeping advance.

 

How about something this:

 

The Long War: The Chaos Space Marines are veterans with centuries of battlefield experience. While they may lack the iron conviction of Loyalist Marines, their wills have been hardened by eons of bitter warfare. Chaos Marines Chaos Space Marine units may always roll to re-group even if the unit is at less than 50 percent strength.

 

I think that combined with the ability to take the Icon of Chaos Glory (re-rolling leadership tests) gives Chaos morale that reflects their fearsome fighting ability without eclipsing loyalists' ATSKNF.

[IronWinds]

I did not read every single post. Sorry, but there were a lot of discussions I had no interest in. Sorry if I missed something I'm about to address.

 

 

1) The Undivided Legions (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion). I liked the general direction of your changes here. Though I know some people don't like this approach, it seems to me the simplest way to incorporate these rules would be to add in a special character for each of these Legion that bestowed some army-wide abilities, a la the loyalist special characters. Hopefully they would tone down points so people could get in their existing personalized Daemon Prince/Sorcerer/Lord as well in the other HQ slot.

 

No, no, no, just NO. My army has its own, and very long fluff. Why should I incorporate some crappy new HQ into my army just so they army can have given rules? Why not just have the rules because they have the paint job, that has worked for decades, leave it alone. The IWs don't have any special named people, and I like it that way. If we could field Perturabo, well that I would like, otherwise no. And before anyone says Honsue... just don't. He is not an IW. He is an Imperial Fist screw up in rusty silver armor, nothing more, nothing less. The 'take this character and get special rules' thing is stupid to begin with. No reason to incorporate it with chaos as well, the Imperials can keep that. Why would my army suddenly change because num nuts joins the army, and then change again when he gets killed?

 

 

Ok for all the undivided armies. In some cases almost everyone of them has been known to ally with some cult unit. IWs use bezerkers as assault troops, NLs use demons, ect. These armies can NOT take icons or marks other than the icon of glory. However each army is limited to 1 cult unit.

 

 

Iron Warriors: May not take icons/marks other than chaos glory. May not use daemons other than princes. May take 2 heavy weapons in ten man chaos marine squads. When this is done no special weapon may be taken. Havocs may be taken as elites as well as heavy support. Any infantry squad may be given the tank hunters veteran skill for 3 points per model.

 

Practically no one takes havoks.... if CSM squads can now have 2 heavy weapons I'm even more likely to not field havoks. TH I like, it makes sense. The word that comes up the most in IW fluff... tanks, largest tank on tank battle in 40k history.... when the IWs attacked Tallarn. Forget havoks, give me something tank related. The old 4th heavy support wasn't a bad rule, until it was combined with 9 obliterators, 4HS & 9 oblits was over the top. Add a 4th HS that has to be a tank, and/or have the option of that tank being a basilisk.

 

And servo arm for 15pts. 30 was way to much for a 1hit PF. 15pts for an extra PF attack? Good price anyone?

 

Night Lords: May not take icons/marks. May take bikers and assault squads as troops, but squads taken this way do not count for the minimum of 2 troops (regular marine squads must still be taken). May only take unmarked daemons, but may make the squads jump infantry for 4 points per model. All infantry have Night Vision. Any unit may be given Stealth for 2 points per model. Any unit may be given fearless for 2 points per model.

 

A bit overpowering maybe. Night lords are suppose to be scary, not an all jump pack army, which is what this would be used as. And jet packs are not exactly stealthy, just have to point that out. I know there have been a lot of arguments about this, but why take more assault troops, and why make them scoring, and especially why would jump pack troops be stealthy. Night lords are known for being scary. For free.... yes free... they count every enemy in close combat as being at a -1 ld. I say free because so many armies now have so many fearless units anyways. No icons..... no marks.... can take the 1 cult unit, and they get to have visage. I think that is fairly balanced.

 

Alpha Legion: May only take the Icon/Mark of Chaos Glory. Any Power armored squad may take either scouts for 1 point per model or infiltrate for 3 points per model. Chosen are scoring units.

 

If every CSM squad can take infiltrate why are chosen scoring? It makes sense because they infiltrate, was is not being thought about is the fact that they can take a ton of special weapons. They are basically infiltrating havoks, scoring might be a bit much to throw onto that. If I played this AL my objective camping units would always be 10 infiltrating chosen w/ 4 plasmaguns.

 

Chosen: Cost changed to 20 points per model. Fearless in close combat. Combi weapon price reduced to 5 pts. No longer have infiltrate. Any number may be upgraded to Champions.

 

No one takes them. Increasing their price and removing their special ability is suppose to change that? The way you just did them the only way to take them is with 5 combi meltas or combi plasma to be cost effective. Chosen need an improvement not things taken away. How about? Chosen have infiltrate, and anyone can be upgraded to a champion for 10pts. That is more in line with how they use to be, and still keeps them as the legendary elite of chaos.

 

Lords: A lord on a bike allows you to take 1 squad of bikers as troops. A lord with a jump pack (not wings) allows you to take 1 squad of jump pack assault marines as troops.

 

Why? What is the justification here?

[incinerator950]

Lords: A lord on a bike allows you to take 1 squad of bikers as troops. A lord with a jump pack (not wings) allows you to take 1 squad of jump pack assault marines as troops.

 

Why? What is the justification here?

 

I think the justification in that was to allow those units to become scoring units, or something. However, I'm with you on the not taking a special character part, however, I do know that people still take chosen and havocs :D. Not every player is a minmaxer IronWinds.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

IronWinds:

 

Several of the things i did were for gameplay purposes. For example, i know full well that nightlords are themed around terror. But in the current state of 5th ed there was no easy way to make them terror themed without writing them new special rules, which is not what these changes were about. So instead i kept with the 3.5 dex's theme of them being fast attack based. It is not completely fluffy, but it does make sense from a gameplay perspective of having a fast attack themed army be one of the options. Letting lords make a bike or assault squad troops is for the same reason. It is also to encourage people to take lords over daemon princes - daemon princes are more powerful, lords give some different army list choices. Otherwise even with my daemon weapon changes lords are still a fairly unattractive choice when they ought to be the default choice. Also note the incentive to take a jump-pack instead of the more powerful wings.

 

The havoc stuff for Iron Warriors is similar. People already use tanks plenty. But Iron Warrior are tank AND heavy weapon themed. Havocs are a fluffy unit for them but will never be used as its always better to use that heavy support for tanks or oblits. Being able to take them as elites makes them more of an option. It may even make a gunline list possible. The 2 heavies on csm squads serves the same purpose of encouraging heavy weapon use. I didn't include servo arms because i didn't want to write in any new rules (servo arms do not exist in the current dex, so i can't just say "may take servo arm for x").

 

The chosen scoring on alpha legion is to encourage them to take and use them. Alpha legion are infantry themed for the most part, and shouldn't be running around with the huge armor blobs that the current codex encourages. Scoring squads with 5 special weapons lets them do this and still compete.

 

The reason for my chosen changes are a bit less obvious. Yes i increased their cost, but i made it easy for them to get cheap combi weapons (sternguard style). The main thing though is the option to upgrade them all to champions. Coupled with some of the legion-wide rules, this is really beastly (such as the thousand sons being able to make any champ a sorc). Since they get Fearless now, it also means they are a viable assault unit. And a viable assault unit that can potentially take 4 special close combat weapons needs to be expensive, especially when that can be coupled with a legion wide bonus.

[Unguis Raptus]

Night Lords: May not take icons/marks. May take bikers and assault squads as troops, but squads taken this way do not count for the minimum of 2 troops (regular marine squads must still be taken). May only take unmarked daemons, but may make the squads jump infantry for 4 points per model. All infantry have Night Vision. Any unit may be given Stealth for 2 points per model. Any unit may be given fearless for 2 points per model.

 

A bit overpowering maybe. Night lords are suppose to be scary, not an all jump pack army, which is what this would be used as. And jet packs are not exactly stealthy, just have to point that out. I know there have been a lot of arguments about this, but why take more assault troops, and why make them scoring, and especially why would jump pack troops be stealthy. Night lords are known for being scary. For free.... yes free... they count every enemy in close combat as being at a -1 ld. I say free because so many armies now have so many fearless units anyways. No icons..... no marks.... can take the 1 cult unit, and they get to have visage. I think that is fairly balanced.

 

Well actually Zso Sahaal, 1st Captain, Talonmaster and heir to the Night Lords was the first of the Raptors, and is extremely stealthy. I wouldn't go as far as to say Alpha Legion stealthy but I'd say next on the list, and he combined that ability to dissapear with the knowledge of terror his Primarch gave him to turn himself into an unstoppable machine of focused rage.

 

Just cos' they have jump packs doesn't mean it's on afterburner all the time :)

[refuse]

Ever since 2nd Edition loyalist Space Marines have had a beneficial morale rule to represent their selfless dedication, while Chaos Marines while lacking such a rule had a more free organisation structure (not to mention nasty special units). Chaos Space Marines are not affraid of overwhelming odds or space monsters, but they will not sacrifice themselves for other Chaos Space Marines. They have a very high morale value, and can even get an additional morale rule in the undivided Chaos Mark, but when they think it would be wiser to fall back, they will fall back.

I think you need to go back and read 2nd edition rules.

 

1) Look at the ability the mark of Slaanesh gives Slaanesh Marines in 2nd.

2) the rules for fall back and morale were different back then.

3) Marines get many benefits when falling back (such as not being wiped out, and regrouping if assaulted). So CSM, being marines (renegades) are wiped out if falling back?

4) CSM do sacrifice themselves. It is a misnomer, I think you can read the renegade books (the Soul Drinkers), and much of the HH books. They serve a master (lets take Khorne) that would turn them to spawn if they fell back. All skulls are welcome to khorne, even yours.

You can't pick and choose fluff, and rules and combine them. Leave that to the game developers.

Falling back has implications in 3rd and 4th. More then just moving to a better location.

So your logic is this: When their morale breaks (after 10 Millenium, or 3 minutes after they turn to chaos from being loyal), they will "in a unit (group) fall back because they worry about themselves. Sorry, the rules as they are now don't even support you claims.

 

Alot of justifications from 2nd fail.

Invulnerable saves are a gimmic because they messed up weapons from 2nd to 3rd.

Fearless is a gimmic as the morale rules changed from 2nd-3rd.

Falling back changed, along with a slew of other rules.

 

Slaanesh was fearless in 2nd, the mark of Slaanesh gave fearless to CSM (no icons back then!)

[IronWinds]

I think the justification in that was to allow those units to become scoring units, or something. However, I'm with you on the not taking a special character part, however, I do know that people still take chosen and havocs . Not every player is a minmaxer IronWinds.

 

I have chosen, and havoks. They just rarely see the table outside of apoc. And I have been using the same list since the day 4th came out. Now everyone uses that list(DP/rhinos/terminators/oblits) but I started doing it a very long time before it was trendy to do so. And I use to use chosen a lot.... infiltrate into objectives w/ a single lascannon, but since the 5th ed rules for what counts as scoring are _______ they don't see many games.

 

Letting lords make a bike or assault squad troops is for the same reason. It is also to encourage people to take lords over daemon princes - daemon princes are more powerful, lords give some different army list choices.

 

People do need a reason to take lords. I don't see why that should make bikes scoring. One reason would be to make them cheaper. Another would be a 0-1 limit on princes which is very much needed. And finally would be making them competitive.... fix demon weapons.

 

Havocs are a fluffy unit for them but will never be used as its always better to use that heavy support for tanks or oblits. Being able to take them as elites makes them more of an option.

 

I understand that, I like that. Under 4th I would of considered it. But now everything is so geared towards troops I don't see people taking them. If you have filled up all your HS choices you are likely putting the rest or at least most of your pts into troops at that point. Same problem with gun lines. Gun lines can't move to take objectives.... So its more of a problem with 5th ed then your idea, but under 5th ed I don't see it being used.

 

The chosen scoring on alpha legion is to encourage them to take and use them. Alpha legion are infantry themed for the most part, and shouldn't be running around with the huge armor blobs that the current codex encourages. Scoring squads with 5 special weapons lets them do this and still compete.

 

I get that, on its own I don't mind, but you also wanted alpha to be able to give infiltrate to CSM units. If their troops can infiltrate then making their chosen also scoring gives them a possible 9 scoring infiltrating units. A bit much IMO. 6 infiltrating scoring units, plus 3 infiltrating nasty elites units is still very competitive, I think having chosen scoring in addition to CSMs having infiltrate is just overkill. One or the other is fine, combined they are overkill.

 

The main thing though is the option to upgrade them all to champions. Coupled with some of the legion-wide rules, this is really beastly (such as the thousand sons being able to make any champ a sorc).

 

It was possible under 3.5, and they cost the exact same thing. No one really did it because it was so expensive to do. Each sorcerer not counting psychic powers would be what.... 75pts? Half your points would end up being one squad with 3+armor/4+invsvs. Again no one would do it. And for the few who did, sure you can rain terror for a turn, next turn they get whiped out by small arms fire.

 

Since they get Fearless now, it also means they are a viable assault unit. And a viable assault unit that can potentially take 4 special close combat weapons needs to be expensive, especially when that can be coupled with a legion wide bonus.

 

They are already a viable assault unit. All chaos infantry short of thousand sons are decent assault units. And if you take 4 PWs they are going to be expensive anyways. I still don't see the need to increase the cost of a unit that isn't being used that much to begin with. If it is not being used much, it is likely not very competitive. Increasing its cost makes it even less competitive.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Good points IronWinds. They are duly noted.

[Legatus]

I think you need to go back and read 2nd edition rules.

 

(...)

 

Slaanesh was fearless in 2nd, the mark of Slaanesh gave fearless to CSM (no icons back then!)

IIRC Slaanesh units were merely immune to psychology (fear, terror, stupidity, frenzy), but they still had to take break tests due to shooting and combat casualties. Same for Berserkers, who were frenzied and thus also immune to psychology (up untill they lost in combat and then were no longer frenzied).

 

So, essentially the opposite is true. Not even cult units were fearless in 2nd Edition. They all had to take break tests and could fall back.

 

I don't have my 2nd edition Codex Chaos at the moment, so perhaps I am remembering it wrong.

[refuse]

I think you need to go back and read 2nd edition rules.

 

(...)

 

Slaanesh was fearless in 2nd, the mark of Slaanesh gave fearless to CSM (no icons back then!)

IIRC Slaanesh units were merely immune to psychology (fear, terror, stupidity, frenzy), but they still had to take break tests due to shooting and combat casualties. Same for Berserkers, who were frenzied and thus also immune to psychology (up untill they lost in combat and then were no longer frenzied).

 

So, essentially the opposite is true. Not even cult units were fearless in 2nd Edition. They all had to take break tests and could fall back.

 

I don't have my 2nd edition Codex Chaos at the moment, so perhaps I am remembering it wrong.

 

 

This means that they are immune to fear and terror, for example. In addition, they never take a break test, as death holds no fear for them, but is seen as a welcome consummation of experience.

[Legatus]

I see, I thought it was probably like the WHFB mark of Slaanesh.

 

I guess I will have to conceed then that in 2nd Edition Slaanesh Cult Marines were fearless.

[Yogi]

I hate your idea for bezerkers they are not retarded blood claws..

[the jeske]

I see, I thought it was probably like the WHFB mark of Slaanesh.

 

I guess I will have to conceed then that in 2nd Edition Slaanesh Cult Marines were fearless.

at the same time that 2ed was legal , all incarnation of codexs for chaos in WFB[or rather boxs , because they had cards for mutations etc] had the mark of slaanesh do the same . immune to psychology.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I hate your idea for bezerkers they are not retarded blood claws..

 

They aren't, but they have always had a rule like this until this edition. Plus they need some minuses to limit how badass they are.

[Yogi]

The minus is lack of Anti tank. If you ideas got put into a codex we never see bezerkers anymore.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Where is there any imposed lack of anti tank on world eaters?