I finally got a look a the new Dex!

[littlbitz]

Well I finally got a look at the new Space Wolf Codex. My first impression was Wow!

 

Then I started playing with lists a little bit. Let me tell you, from first impressions all the huff about us being way over-powered is being blown way out of proportion.

 

It looks to me like the Space Wolves have just been brought in line with the other current 5th ed. books.

 

Lets do a quick comparison Choice by Choice, I will also explain any changes I made to the list, working towards an 1850 list.

 

First up, the HQ choices.

 

With the old Codex, I needed 3. I have been using the following:1. A WolfLord with a Pair of Lightning Claws, a Wolfpelt and Frag. 2. A Battle Leader with bike, Frostblade, Boltpistol, Frag and Melta bombs, and 3. A Battle Leader with Bike, Thunder hammer and Stormshield with a Runic Charm

 

These guys were cheap! I'll use the last HQ for an example Old dex cost = 140 points, New dex cost = 170 (without a Saga!) he also loses the Runic Charm and has a lesser Stat-line.

 

This part of the book is expensive but man have we got lots of choices. I really wanted to go with a few battle leaders on bikes, but the cost just rises too quickly.

 

I ended up taking 2 HQ choices, a Wolf Lord on a bike with a Frostblade and a Stormshield, I will take either the Saga of the Bear or Warrior Born. He comes in at well over 200 points but he will be a beast! He will lead my Bike units into combat.

 

My second HQ I took for sheer cost effectiveness, A Wolfpriest no extra bells or whistles. He is cheap for what he can do, now I don't mean stat-line wise (he is terrible) but for what he does for those he is with. He will lead my Rhino riding BloodClaws pack

 

So, over-all I saved a about 50 points on HQ choices, but have fewer HQs. I also gave up the Flexibility of 2 HQs on a bike, and some Combat effectiveness in exchange for increasing the ability of the Bloodclaws. Seems an even trade so far.

 

Now the Troops.

 

In my old list I used 4, 3 GH packs and 1 BC pack. 2 of my Greyhunters packs were 7 strong plus a WG in TDA to lead them, my 3rd was 6 Strong and usually assigned to provide infantry support to my Pred. The Bloodclaws were 8 men strong and had a Packleader assigned to them. Combined they come in at about 868 points with thier respective Pack leaders.

 

I decided that I wanted to beef up my Greyhunter packs to take advantage of the extra special weapon. So in the new list I am planning the Following:

Greyhunters x10 with 2x melta, a Powerweapon, one with the mark of Wulfen, Standard, and Plasma pistol, Led by a Wolfguard in TDA with a Combi-melta and a powerweapon

Greyhunters x10 with 2x Plasma, a Powerweapon, one with the mark of Wulfen, Standard and Plasma pistol, Led by a Wolfguard in TDA with and Assault Cannon! and powerweapon

BloodClaws pack x8 with a flamer, Plasma pistol, and powerweapon in a Rhino.

 

The trade off here is that I am only taking 3 choices, my 2 packs are larger and actually have more fire power than my old ones with the addition of the Assault cannon to one of my packs. These choices come in at around 706 points so I really made a deal here, although its mainly because I exchanged all of my fists for powerweapons, and each pack has lost a plasmapistol.

 

On to the Wolf Scouts: I was running with 4 + a packleader, had a melta, and 2x plasma pistols, pack leader had a combimelta, melta-bombs and powerweapon for 139 points

 

My new pack must start with 5 (but can go upto 10!) with Meltabombs and 2x Powerweapons at 130 points. Cheaper over all, but less firepower, and not as reliable but potentially more dangerous.

 

Even up trade here I think.

 

Now for the Biker packs.

In my old list I took 2 packs, one of 3 with a Fist and Melta, and one pack of 4+ a pack leader with 2x fists and the Pack leader had Lightning claws, meltabombs, wolftooth necklace, and a Runic charm. All for 342 points.

 

My new list plans have TWO packs of 4+ Pack leaders. Each Biker pack has a Power weapon, and the Pack leaders have a Wolfclaw and Meltabombs. 376 points

 

I lost ALOT of fist power here but I think I have gained in overall effectiveness, I will have to try it out a few times and see, the biggest thing here is like most other places in the list, the basic trooper went down in cost, the upgrades went up in cost and attached wolfguard are priced through the roof!

 

My old list had a Predator with Twin-linked Lascannons and Heavy bolter side sponsons, I dropped this unit from my new list.

 

Through out the list I have shaved points here and there and came up with quite a savings, with the saved points I was able to get 2 more units.

 

I chose a Wolfguard Squad x4 with TDA and Powerweapons, 2 have combi-melta and 2 will have Combi flamers and be in a Drop Pod. This unit will spearhead my attack and keep the opponent busy while my Scouts, BloodClaws and Bikes vie for position.

 

Next I chose 6 Longfangs with 5x Heavy Bolters, very cheap, and lots of bullets.

 

So there you have it, my old list and my planned new list. Of course this will change 50 times between now and me actually finished but its always good to have a plan.

 

Im still concerned with only 3 troop choices, so I may nix the Longfangs. I've also lost alot of Powerfists. Its tough for me to justify thier increased cost on top of them losing an attack in 5th. I'm hoping I was able to suitably increase my firepower and add enough meltabombs that it wont become an issue.

[Thorgrim Blackwolf]

A good analysis and a well-thought out post, Littlebitz. Well done!

 

I had the same thoughts when I read the new codex a few days ago. We've been given two editions worth of updates and a power boost to bring us into line with other codecies. It isn't cheese, its just GW doing what they have been needing to do for at least 5 years.

 

I currently run a mech list with 2 GH squads and 2 BC squads in rhinos and I am debating whether to exchange the BC's for GH due to the changes to GH. I will still use my BC's in land raiders and the fast attack choices. I was wondering what everybody else thinks about how they are going to use BC packs in their lists.

 

I don't think my list will change much apart from getting cheaper and the addition of more units.

 

Cheers

 

Thorgrim

[Godhead]

I'm not sure that i'll field BC's in my lists anymore at all. With WS3 and the loss of pfists from the squad, I don't think they will perform better than another pack of GH's, unless you can ensure the charge, and then higher WS opponents will hurt them in subsequent rounds of combat. I think points for them could be better spent elsewhere. I do agree skyriders if allowed to pack a flamer and fist could def be a huge asset for their cost. Bikers if price decently enough could be nice with a pack leader and a character on a bike for ablative wounds and a solid punch from a charge (plus TL bolters helps with the BS 3). But plain on troop choice blood claws? Meh.....i'll probably leave them at the fang for now.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Hey littlbitz, how are you getting 10 models with WG and two specials? Foot slogging? :)

I'll have to admit, I'm at a total loss on how I want to field my force. I do know I want to have a solid backbone of GH's, with no less than three even if I go with a drop pod force featuring termies. They are just a steal for what you get.

 

And I really love the ability to have a heavy weapon in the pack by adding a WG in termie. Nothing like Dping on an objective and forced to move off of it, or move towards the enemy due to withering fire. Before(and briefly) you'd have to field a WGBL with HW.

 

Yeah, BC's will only see use in FA, or in LRC with priest.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

BCs seem to really have been shafted. Skyclaws are far, far better. Jump packs, MotW, Jump pack characters can lead them. For 3pts?

 

However, in this list they are littlbitz's 3rd scoring unit, so replacing them directly with sky claws wouldn't really work, and replacing them with grey hunters.. well considering they're all hitting on 3s the claws come out on top. In fact, led by a wolf priest may be the only way to have troops choice blood claws effective. I can't think of any other time I'd take them over grey hunters.

 

I like the Assault Cannon in a grey hunter squad, something I'm wanting to do for my home objective holder. (Come and get me) but does leave me the dilemna of where to put my other minimum 4 required WG. Your terminator drop force looks nice, using combi weapons to maximise one turns firing damage, whereas an assault cannon is better in a foot slog unit so it can fire throughout the game.

 

I don't like the power weapons on your scouts. Plasma pistols would serve you better there IMO, giving you another 2 shots that can hit rear armour if you're out of range for an assault.

 

Only other thing I would suggest is perhaps upgrading a couple heavy bolters on the long fangs to missile launchers. You'll be able to split fire and hit transports or whatever, then if/when the pack leader bites it they can switch to frags and help chew up the bolters target. Alternatively in a pinch the bolters can help against av10/11. Speeders and other fast choices in particular will die in droves to this squad.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Yeah, I agree with Jaarl on those missles.

 

Jaarl, You may also want to consider cyclones for those GH packs with heavy weapons.

And in terms of the 4 left over, give them combi meltas and a pod for some tank busting.

[Thorgrim Blackwolf]

Agreed on those points, Jaarl and Lord Ragnarok.

 

An AC/HF would be better on a squad you want to take an objective, where as a CML would be better for a camper GH squad with twin plasma guns.

 

For the other 4 WG terminators, I equip them with combi weapons but magenetise the arms so you can switch weapons depending on the army you are facing.

 

Cheers

 

Thorgrim

[Ryzouken]

Should've grabbed a Rune Priest. They'll end up about 200 points after Master of Runes, Terminator Armor, and a Chooser, but the end result is:

cancelling psychic powers on a 4+ straight roll

24" of no deep strike, no skimmer movement

another 18" zone of no deep strike

Jaws of the World Wolf for sniping hidden powerfist operators and making nob bikes and Tyranid MC's cry.

 

Since you're footslogging, you could even consider swapping the 24" no deep strike power for the faux-Kustom Force Field power. Cover saves for your entire army while in open terrain? Yes please.

[littlbitz]

Thanks for the imput guys, this really is a work in progress.

 

I know it seems odd Rags, but the Packs on foot have been working for me. I think its because of the bikers and rhino. My opponents rarely have time to focus thier fire on the GH packs, and if they do, my Claws on bikes are getting into position.

My Grey Hunters simply advance and take objectives while my bikes and scouts do the heavy work, its been working, don't know why but it has.

 

I to agree with the Missile launchers in the LF pack, I have some points left, and it shouldn't be hard to adjust the list to put them in there.

 

As for the Claws, I know that Grey Hunters are better, but I just can't seem to stop myself from fielding them all of a sudden.

I went a loooong time not fielding Blood claws, then I painted a pack, and now? well, I field them in every list. I don't know why really. But no one ever accused me of being a smart Wolf Lord.

 

As for the scouts, I originally had them with Plasma pistols, and was just thinking I'd like to try something different with them. I may even beef up the pack a bit since we can take 10 scouts in a pack now.

 

So much to think about...

[Grey Mage]

I fully support the use of footslogging packs- especially as our WG rules works so similarly to the old style. You lose little to no mobility, give up fewer KPs, and with a TDA+SS WG your almost as survivable as you were in a rhino... almost. Prudent use of cover and gearing for fire fights should also minimalize casualities.

 

And we can take 10 scouts now? Wow.... thats really cool.

 

Can scouts take a DP? My current revamp of the army in preparation for this new codex is to make it more 13nth company.... An all DP force, but instead of DPs everything will be emerging from "Warp Gates" that are on the same size bases and block about the same LOS. Im about 3/4 of the way through the first "pod" and I really think this is the way I gotta go.

[eyeslikethunder]

I think you should take with the Plasma pistols on the scouts. Yeah i Think the CML is better i think it fills the Gap better. I do think the Rune priest power that stops skimmers deep strikers and jumpers combines very well with deep striking as it takes a lot of there mobility away and did have me thinkng on a Njal DP list. But i do think that Wolf guard with combi weapons at 23 points are good value

 

 

Here is a list I wanted to try 1500

 

 

Logan Grimnar

8 wolf guard 8 Combi weapons PF single WC DP 254

8 wolf guard 8 Combi weapons PF single WC DP 254

9 GH DP 1 melta WG combi melta PF 218

9 GH DP 1 melta WG combi melta PF 218

5 Wolf scouts meltagun PP melta bombs 125

5 long fangs 4 Multimeltas DP

 

 

Or

 

Logan grimnar

 

7 WG 6 combi weapons 1 TDA 1 CML 1 PF DP 1 WC 233

7 WG 6 combi weapons 1 TDA 1 CML 1 PF DP 1 WC 233

7 WG 6 combi weapons 1 TDA 1 CML 1 PF DP 1 WC 233

7 WG 6 combi weapons 1 TDA 1 CML 1 PF DP 1 WC 233

5 Wolf scouts meltagun PP melta bombs 125

5 long fangs 4 Multimeltas DP

[Grey Mage]

Are they really 23pts with a PW+CW?

 

Because I have like 10 of them already made... been my "standard" WG for years.

[eyeslikethunder]

Are they really 23pts with a PW+CW?

 

Because I have like 10 of them already made... been my "standard" WG for years.

 

 

Nope 18 + 5 for combi weapon the Power Weapon is another 10

[Vanger]

Thanks Littlbitz, for the insight into the new codex pre-release. I still envy you as I have to wait till release to get my paws on it, and can start adjusting my army only then, but posts like these help a bit in the creative process in redesigning the compostition.

 

As opposed to you I welcome the change, that from now on we are not forced to take a HQ choice every 750 points. But at the same time, how do you feel, does the new SW army need the characters, to retain it's hitting power? Or does the new list not only rely on them?

 

Also what was the reason behind your decision to take less fists? Is it the price tag they got (i assume they cost 25 pts as for everyone else?), is it that a grunt only gets 1 attack out of it or are they nonexistent options?

 

As for the scouts, do they have now more CC orinted options? Or are we still able to do a shooty pack of them for blowing up tanks?

 

Also I would have a rules query out of pure curiosity. Does an attached Wolf Guard count towards the pack number for the extra spec weapon in GH squads?

[Het Masteen]

I usually have 2 BC packs in Landraiders with a barebones WP and a WL with twin LC (or WC now). The loss of the additional PW/PF will force me to rethink how I use them, rather than drop them anyway. Using Logan though, I could substitute one pack of BC with WG.

 

Interesting point: I'm currently in a campaign. One of the rules is if I build a training camp, I can give any unit one USR per turn. I made my Long Fangs relentless, gave them 4 MM (I was facing Tau) and stuck them in a pod. It was pretty darned effective. Imagine my glee when I noticed that if I stick Logan in the pod with them, I can do it in every game! The points decrease for Long Fangs and the fact we don't have to take as many HQ choices as before means I essenially get Logan free. Land another Pod within 12" and next turn Logan can hand out his expertise to someone else (like giving a GH squad Preferred Enemy before they charge).

 

I agree with Littlbitz though. I don't know if the new codex is overpowered, but it definitely makes us uber-competitive again.

[littlbitz]

Vanger, you hit the nail on the head in regards to the fists on both counts. The price tag just seems too high to me and the fact that a basic trooper only gets on attack with them. It also got me thinking as to how much better a fist is than a powerweapon in terms of usage, and how often and in what packs they were actually coming into play anyways.

 

I may be completely wrong, and have to adjust further and put some fists back into the list, but I figure its worth a try.

 

Don't take my original post the wrong way I too completely welcome the change, its just going to take some fiddling to get used to. The Character choices now are great! but very costly. Its going to be a real balancing act to get it right.

 

Oh, and from what I can tell, a WG is attached to his Pack at the begining of the game, not bought with it, so I would say that no it does not count towards the # of GreyHunters to get you to ten.

[eyeslikethunder]

totally agree 25pts for powerfist on GH is just to much and strange given its 20pts on a wolf guard who are better with it. But i'm too scared too travel without one so Wolf guard SGT it is

 

As for the scouts, do they have now more CC orinted options? Or are we still able to do a shooty pack of them for blowing up tanks?

 

Thye are very similar to before but its plasma pistols or Power weapons making them more one or the other.

 

Interesting point: I'm currently in a campaign. One of the rules is if I build a training camp, I can give any unit one USR per turn. I made my Long Fangs relentless, gave them 4 MM (I was facing Tau) and stuck them in a pod. It was pretty darned effective. Imagine my glee when I noticed that if I stick Logan in the pod with them, I can do it in every game! The points decrease for Long Fangs and the fact we don't have to take as many HQ choices as before means I essenially get Logan free. Land another Pod within 12" and next turn Logan can hand out his expertise to someone else (like giving a GH squad Preferred Enemy before they charge).

 

Good to hear some postive results but i think the art with LF' will be make sure they destroy their targets and to protect them from the counter. Did your manage to get a second turn?

[Ragnars Claw]

Interesting with regards to the power fists there isn't much difference between a fist and a weapon.

 

Round 1 (assuming 2 attacks on fist and 3 on power weapon):

 

	attacks	hits 	wounds	dead
Fist	2	 1.00 	 0.83 	 0.83 
Weapon	3	 1.50 	 0.75 	 0.75

 

Round 2

 

	attacks	hits 	wounds	dead
Fist	1	 0.50 	 0.42 	 0.42 
Weapon	2	 1.00 	 0.50 	 0.50

 

So over 2 rounds fo combat both average 1.25 dead marines.

 

Against T3 the power weapon works out statistically even better than the fist. The issue comes against dreads and T5+ stuff but then if you have a wolf guard in there they will help against that.

[Aeddon]

I'm going with power weapons as well. Adding a melta or two and a plasma pistol more than compensates for the lost power fist.

[Natanael]

I'm gonna try PW in the pack and a WG w/ TH. That way I should be able to take out most of the stuff that is thrown my way. Got a question even so; can a WG take TH & CW? I dont get any extra attacks that way, right? Maybe better to just take a PP.

[Valerian]

Interesting with regards to the power fists there isn't much difference between a fist and a weapon.

 

Round 1 (assuming 2 attacks on fist and 3 on power weapon):

 

	attacks	hits 	wounds	dead
Fist	2	 1.00 	 0.83 	 0.83 
Weapon	3	 1.50 	 0.75 	 0.75

 

Round 2

 

	attacks	hits 	wounds	dead
Fist	1	 0.50 	 0.42 	 0.42 
Weapon	2	 1.00 	 0.50 	 0.50

 

So over 2 rounds fo combat both average 1.25 dead marines.

 

Against T3 the power weapon works out statistically even better than the fist. The issue comes against dreads and T5+ stuff but then if you have a wolf guard in there they will help against that.

 

In that last part lies the real difference in the choice - against standard infantry models they work out about the same, so you might as well save the points and stick with a power weapon. However, in my opinion, every pack (except Long Fangs) needs to have 1 "hidden" high-strength weapon (Power Fist, or Thunder Hammer) to protect them from Walkers, Monstrous Creatures, and other high-toughness threats. The high-strength weapon will also be handy if you have the opportunity to attack a vehicle. Personally, I don't mind taking the PF on a standard Grey Hunter with a single attack, as they'll still get 2 attacks on either the charge or countercharge, although it is better on the 2A Wolf Guard.

 

 

Valerian