Countering mech!

[Vulcanus]

An obvious meta trend in most areas is Mech;

 

You've got rhinos, devifishes, trukks, etc in abundance on almost every battlefield. And for good reason, they are cheap and add both protection and speed to the unit. However, should your unit be deprived of its transport early on, the picure changes drastically; a squad designed for close quarter fighting is left stranded far away from enemies/objectives and presenting a juicy target for enemy heavy weapons, especially from blast weapons if they've been forced to disembark...Obviously, this is:

 

AN IDEAL SITUATION FOR THE OPPONENT.

 

So, what I'm trying to start here, is a thread for designing a list/strategy for how to take out transports 1st turn and then overwhelm the poor passengers.

 

So shoot! :)

[greatcrusade08]

First turn startegies for me involve scout units. If you get first turn certain scout units can get auto hits on stationary vehicles (in CC).

 

LSS, with embarked scouts with meltabmobs/fist, use 24" scout move plus 12" move and 2" disembark and 6" charge to get scouts into CC with vehicles.

 

Scout bikes with melta bombs and or fist, infiltrate and scout move to 12" from target, then move 12" and assault 6"... again auto hits on stationary vehicles.

 

Gc08

[Vulcanus]

Admitted, those are sweet ways to pop armor...but is it really ideal for popping transports..??

 

Cons, as I see it, are

 

1. You limit the firepower you can apply on the pappangers due to the proximity of your own troops

2. The passengers aren't really "left out in the open"...in fact, they are right next to your forces!

 

I was thinking more in lines with long rang firepower such as Tornadoes, Predators w LC sponsons etc...

[DarkGuard]

Well I've been using two TL-lascannons recently, one on my Dreadnought and one on my Razorback. Lascannons are great weapons for taking out transports, being able to cut through armour ar ease and have a long range, allowing you to leave the embarked unit stranded in the open (hopefully).

 

Combi-preds are also good at this, 2 lascannons and an autocannon will pop transports quickly, and Dreadnoughts with two TL-autocannons can do well.

 

I've also started using a Land Speeder Typhoon, took out a Piranha second turn.

 

Pretty much, what you're looking at are units that can use S7-S10 weapons at range. With the lack of proper long range S10 weapons in the Marine arsenal, we're left to use missile launcher, autocannons, lascannons, and to an extent plasma cannons. Multi-melta attack bikes can be used to an extent with this, but they are short ranged compared to lascannons.

 

However, greatcrusade08's suggestions are perfectly valid. In a large army, one 5-man Scout unit isn't going to be too much of a loss after taking out the transports, and if that transport has something like Bezerkers in them, it'll be a good hit.

[Vulcanus]

Pred, typhoons and Dread is the way to go against transports, I think. All operate at 48" which permits action from turn 1. CC scouts could also prove effective...

 

But what to use as "core"? I was thinking something in line with:

 

-Tactical A with Plasma Cannon, flamer, sarg. w. combi flamer, R-back

-Tactical B with Plasma Cannon, melta gun, sarg. w. combi melta, R-back

-Thunderfirecannon

 

These would be used as follows:

 

Two 5-man squads with a Plasma Cannon each plus the TFC occupy some kind of cover which has been bolsterd by the techmarine. Together, these 3 units sit tight in cover and pound the poor bastards who just got their transports popped with 6 mean blasts/turn.

 

Meanwhile, the special weapon teams deploy inside their transports and provide fire support (2 twin linked HBs is nothing to sneeze at...) and await opportunity to counter attack/go for an objecteve.

[chapter master 454]

To me transports are just points paid by my opponent to give me more power. Why should I waste points on weak armour when if I ditch those who use them to gain more power. The main focus I play on is what they do: getting to my lines. I generally have an aggressive style be it range or getting personal so as one can guess I pack armour. I can plaster easily 3 or maybe 4 transports a turn with no problem. I prepare killing lanes and predict where the transports will go and have the anti-armour in place for it. True they get about half way there but nine times out of ten their half way there, so running to me or away back to cover will take equally long. Smoke can ruin a day but when my best anti-armour weapon fires 4 shots that can easily puncture AV11 (2 autocannon shots and 2 lascannon shots) I doubt much can withstand it.

 

To deal with mech you must relise what their trying to do, get across no mans land fast and theres the weak spot. Plaster them 12" across and then let it rip with the rest of my firepower (and on a bad day for the opponent, that would be a drive-by with a flamestorm). I find mech lists quite predictable, it's all about getting close but when faced with an army that already loves punishing at short range with long range weapons, they have no bonus. They will most likely have a set route picked out and destination via ether the safest or shortest route. Place anti-armour with sights on both routes then you negate them the transports bonus.

 

Only real army that needs to be worried about is eldar, turn one their transport already do the job and you have yriel or whoever bearing down. Well then again thats why I take land raiders with added lysander, you show those eldar real combat units. bear in mind though eldars pet anti-tank combo, turboing-transporting fire dragons for anti-tank power not even a MM attack bike can match. However on the whole overall just take a ton load of decent strength weapons and viola, transports are toast!

[Grey Mage]

How to counter mech.... bring antitank weapons. A bunch of them. And target the enemy transports first.

 

That was simple :confused:.

 

Combat squading devastators are a very good way to go about this, simply taking a heavy weapon with long range like a ML or Lascannon in every troops choice is another. To capitalize on the disembarked troops with a pie plate take a pair of vindicators or a vindicator and a whirlwind, or two whirlwinds.

 

Some Sterngaurd to shoot the enemy as they now are forced *in most cases* to footslog towards you supported by your vindicators/whirlwinds and alot of bolters with the occaisional heavy weapon to ~Zilch~ an enemy gives you a nice solid gunline force.

 

Consider leading it with a MotF with converion beamer or a JP equiped chaplain/librarian.

 

Toss in an assault squad for CC cleanup or counterattacking and call it a good 1750 force.

[Vulcanus]

Nice input! Thx.

 

@ Gray Mage

1. Don't know if I want to give up a tac squad (or even a cobmat squad for that matter) to 1 ML shot/turn...

2. Assault squad + Chappie leader is a nice option, but this is a about 340p not shooting...

3. Vindicators are definitely nice

 

What troop choices should be used?

 

I also don't want the force to be too focused on anti-transport, it should be able to take on hordes in a reliable way. Thereof the Plasma Cannons and TFC firebase (see post # 5)

[Chengar Qordath]

Land Speeder Typhoons also make good transport killers; the ability to move 12" and shoot a pair of krak missiles is rather nice. As a bonus, it's also an equally good choice for anti-hord work since it can move 12" and then shoot two frag missiles and a heavy bolter. You want an anti-mech list that can still stand up to other armies after all.

[Vulcanus]

You want an anti-mech list that can still stand up to other armies after all.

 

My point exactly.

 

Typhoons are definitely IN

[DarkGuard]

Nice input! Thx.

 

@ Gray Mage

1. Don't know if I want to give up a tac squad (or even a cobmat squad for that matter) to 1 ML shot/turn...

2. Assault squad + Chappie leader is a nice option, but this is a about 340p not shooting...

3. Vindicators are definitely nice

 

What troop choices should be used?

 

I also don't want the force to be too focused on anti-transport, it should be able to take on hordes in a reliable way. Thereof the Plasma Cannons and TFC firebase (see post # 5)

 

1. Consider like this, at range it pops a transport, and then can start fragging the enemy troops as they come near. Also, if you use Rhinos with them, and shoot out the top hatch, only one person can, so it might as well be that.

 

To be fair, the best troops you can use to take out mech armies are as Grey Mage stated, Tacticals with missile launchers and lascannons. However, if you want to commit them to mowing down the infantry that get out of the vehicles, consider TL-LC Razorbacks, much more expensive, but those lascannons should take out transports while your plasma cannons can get the infantry.

 

I wouldn't use Scouts with a missile launcher for your anti-transport, unless you are using Telion as well. The snipers can chance a hit on the vehicles as well, and Telion will make sure the krak missile hits, but I'm not sure it's a good investment of points.

[Giga]

Well, it's usually very hard to destroy transports on turn 1. If he starts 2nd, the opponent will usually put them in cover, and if he starts first he'll usually pop smoke and place his transports to give cover saves to each other.

 

That being said, it depends on the opponent's army how and when I'll go about destroying his transports.

 

If it's a close combat army, they will usually rush at me, and will be within melta range by turn 2 or 3. This is where speeders, attack bikers, meltaguns, and reserves are the good things to do. :)

 

If it's a long range army, I will usually have juicier targets (like big bad tanks, or dev squads, etc.) to take out first. But again, I'll probably rush them, and rely on melta to do the job.

[Grey Mage]

Nice input! Thx.

 

@ Gray Mage

1. Don't know if I want to give up a tac squad (or even a cobmat squad for that matter) to 1 ML shot/turn...

2. Assault squad + Chappie leader is a nice option, but this is a about 340p not shooting...

3. Vindicators are definitely nice

 

What troop choices should be used?

 

I also don't want the force to be too focused on anti-transport, it should be able to take on hordes in a reliable way. Thereof the Plasma Cannons and TFC firebase (see post # 5)

 

1: What are you giving up? A missile launcher is 1) Free 2) Highly effective at range both hunting tanks AND hordes 3) If your moving your rapid firing be default- useless the first turn anyways and 4) If you really want to take the bolter shot instead you still get 1 at 12" with the pistol, and if your firing at range the ML is undoubtedly better.

 

Putting a ML in every tactical squad loses you absolutely nothing when it comes to ranged effectiveness and flexability. The same cannot be said of the ever popular flamer... but thats a different story and most people think its worth it anyways.

 

2) It is a good chunk of points Ill admit, and its ranged firepower is certainly not its strength- but it does add flexability to the list and allows you to respond to things like ork Kommandos, outflanking genestealers, and such. A different way to go about this is to simply take two sterngaurd squads- just as good in CC, far superior at range, for an extra 7pts a wound. Its really all about wether you want the extra mobility and if your willing to pay the points.

 

3) I think we can all agree to that. The only thing with the pop n punish routine is that vindicators have a short range.... so be careful as youll have to use them very agressively to have any chance. Whirlwinds arent as devastating against MEQs but they WILL be in range, its a tradeoff.

 

Now... notice something- Hordes involve *normally* alot of bodies with low armor saves yes? What does a "Frag" missile excell at killing? How about pie plates from vindicators and whirlwinds? Indeed, tactical squad bolters are also excellant against hordes- a ML only makes that more apparent.

 

Wich is the beauty of it. Popping transports with troop based heavy weapons doesnt decrease your ability to fight the orkish horde instead, and only increases your chances against Nurgle, Nidzilla, and bikerz.

[minigun762]

One key thing to remember, is that "mech" can normally be divided into 2 major categories, "light" and "heavy".

Light means (DE) Raiders, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Trukks, Chimeras, etc. Basically AV10-12

 

Heavy means Land Raiders, Battlewagons, Falcons, Wave Serpents, Monoliths?. Basically AV12+ units that either have a high AV or some kind of significant defensive upgrade.

 

For the Light stuff, Multi-Lasers, AutoCannons, Assault Cannons, Plasma Guns and Missile Launchers are all great choices. Backed up by Power Fists and Krak Grenades and you should be just fine.

 

The heavy stuff requires either LasCannons, Demolishers or more often then not, Melta weapons.

 

For Marines, the most cost effective way to go about things (in my book) is take long range assets for the light armor and close range assets for the heavy armor.

[Fetterkey]

Many people advocate the use of melta as your sole anti-tank option. In general, this is not an efficient stance, as a transport that closes to within melta range has likely already succeeded in its task. Long range anti-tank weapons, including but not limited to lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons, is also necessary, especially when facing an army that has several low AV vehicles. Meltas, rather than being your primary source of anti-tank firepower, should act as secondary anti-tank for dealing with the toughest targets (especially Land Raiders and Leman Russ Demolishers), as well as serving as "sweepers" to take care of the few light vehicles that might manage to get through the fire from your long-range weapons.