Oblits vs Combi-Predator

[minigun762]

I've heard alot of people have had some success with the "Combi-Predator" which is usually the AutoCannon/LasCannon variant but can also be the TL LasCannon and Heavy Bolter version as well.

Obliterators are the Chaos standard heavy choice because they're so damn flexible and good at what they do, however I belive that the Predator might bring some strong advantages to the table.

 

AutoCannon/LasCannon Predator

+ 3 Heavy weapons with a 48" range

+ Immune to small arms fire

+ Longer maximum movement distance

+ Cheaper

- Less durable to Melta weapon squads

- Can be shaken

- Potentially an easier unit to target

- Only 2 weapons to choose from

- Can move and fire 1 weapon

 

2 Obliterators

+ Flexible weapon layout

+ More durable against most weapons (in cover)

+ Ability to move and fire 2 weapons

- Can be killed using massed small arms fire

- Can be insta-killed by S8 weapons

- Slow movement speed

- Less overall firepower

 

For me, the biggest differences are that the Predators are cheaper then Obliterators and can generate more firepower in a single turn, while the Obliterators have the ability to choose different weapons and can move and shoot to full effect. If it was just between these, I would say that the choices are fairly equivalent on the table top. BUT the problem comes down to durability...

Which is more durable?

A Predator can be smoked by a single Termicide squad but then again all you need is 2 Melta shots to get through to insta-kill 2 Obliterators as well. Obliterators can be dakka'd down by small arms, but most of those are short range and you should be able to keep them away. A Predator can be knocked out by some lucky Krak Grenades in the rear, whereas the Obliterator can fight back.

 

So is it a viable option for Chaos, or is it best left to Loyalist who get the same thing for Cheaper and don't have access to Obliterators.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

If you are comparing them only for long range anti tank firepower, then the predator has a strong case. This problem is that oblits win in flexibility. The option to move in close and use meltas instantly sets them ahead (or, often more importantly, to melta whatever is moving in on you). And then there is also the issue of plasma cannons, which waste hordes, meqs, and teqs alike. Which preds cannot.

 

The place where i believe the combi preds belong is in lists that need the extra armor saturation more than the extra anti meq/teq.

[minigun762]

And then there is also the issue of plasma cannons, which waste hordes, meqs, and teqs alike. Which preds cannot.

 

I wonder about that really.

You're comparing 2 Plasma Cannon shots to 2 LasCannons and 2 AutoCannon shots.

Figure the average blast template will hit 3 targets on a direct hit, but there is always the case of scatter.

I'm sure the Plasma has the advantage, but is it really as big as we assume?

[chillin]

I think it's definately a viable option. I (as minigun knows ^_^ he's certainly heard me say it enough) like the TL'ed LC & HB pred. It has a different roll of course, more of a jack of all trades then an armor killer. I agree with drudge, that the preds addd something to mech list, where you opponent has to chose between shooting his anti-armor weops at your preds or your approaching rinos, where as oblits can

be taken out with str 4, 5, & 6 weops, leaveing the bigger guns to concentrate on your rinos.

Besides it's fun to change things up sometimes, I get tired of using the same things all the time whether I'm winning or not. Kind of got tired of all my list having 2X2 oblits.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And then there is also the issue of plasma cannons, which waste hordes, meqs, and teqs alike. Which preds cannot.

 

I wonder about that really.

You're comparing 2 Plasma Cannon shots to 2 LasCannons and 2 AutoCannon shots.

Figure the average blast template will hit 3 targets on a direct hit, but there is always the case of scatter.

I'm sure the Plasma has the advantage, but is it really as big as we assume?

 

That really depends on the rest of the list, and the nature of your opponent. For example, in the last 10 or so games i've played my plasma cannons have averaged more like 4-5 hits per shot rather than 3. But thats because i have a lash, and my opponents tried stuff like rhino rushing with tac marines.

 

I would say that the largest issue that is not being addressed is that the preds can be shaken/stunned. Oblits will keep firing till they are dead. Av 13/11/10 isn't that great tbh. But daemonic posession just makes you miss too much. Its sort of viable on tl-lc and heavy bolter preds, but even then.

 

Preds i would really like to use, and my next project is probably going to involve them just because i love the models.

[chillin]

And then there is also the issue of plasma cannons, which waste hordes, meqs, and teqs alike. Which preds cannot.

 

Figure the average blast template will hit 3 targets on a direct hit, but there is always the case of scatter.

I'm sure the Plasma has the advantage, but is it really as big as we assume?

 

It really depends on how bunched up the squad your firing at is and the scatter roll of course. Funny thing, my oblits almost always miss w/ their LC's (so much so that the guys in my game group expect it, then laugh at me when it happens :P ). But they are terrified when I get to use my plaz cannons, I roll a very unusual # of "hits" on the scatter die (then it's my turn to laugh ^_^ ), I've pretty much wiped out whole squads of MEQ's with 2 oblits firing 1 turn, termi's too (w/ out storm shields). Back on topic: this, of course, is not the norm, and I think Mini is probably right, that a pred firing 2 LC & AC would kill, on adverage, almost as many meq's (assuming theiy're no behind cover) as 2 plaz cannon firing oblits. And for that matter, I'm not sure my LC & HB pred would be that far behind, with a few bad armor saves from my opponent, and with that cover wouldn't matter as much. I'm assuming 2 oblits firing, 1 will be on mark (or close enough), we're talking 3 dead guys, 4 tops. I think eather of the pred combos would count for 3 pretty consistantly.

[chillin]

my plasma cannons have averaged more like 4-5 hits per shot rather than 3. But thats because i have a lash,

 

Everything I said in my last post is assuming no lash, I refuse to use it and I know Mini does to, for the very reason that it has WAAAY too much effect on the game for a 20 pt item.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Why not make this discussion really interesting and throw in the other heavy weapon platforms? Fire support dreads and havocs.

 

A missile Launcher + lascannon dread is a mere 125 pts and has the best mobility of any of them. And assuming that interpretation of fire frenzy that it shoots the nearest unit it can see (not the nearest one proximity wise) it can dish out some serious damage. It is also much easier to keep in cover than a pred. It also doesn't fight for heavy support slots. The main issue is if you get stuck blood raging without a DCCW.

 

Havocs are very inefficient when it comes to the heavier weapons, but are decent with the cheaper ones like autocannons and missiles. They are, of course, the least mobile but can average better results vs light armor than oblits. A 6 man unit with 3 autocannons is the same as 2 oblits and will terrorize rhinos and heavy infantry.

 

EDIT: I only use lash because i play a pure slaanesh list atm. Wouldn't use it in others.

[chillin]

EDIT: I only use lash because i play a pure slaanesh list atm. Wouldn't use it in others.

 

Kool

As for the dread, I believe that firefrenzy Q has been covered in an erratica (or whatever it's called) or FAQ, and GW sz it can even pivot around and shoot your guys if they are closest, RAW -_- . But even that not with standing, they closest enemy unit might no be the one you want him to shoot at, wnat if the closest unit is a lone surviver of a squad and you hit him with 2 LC's and 2 ML's and the rest of the guys army is coming at you ? And like you said blood rage with all shooty weops. The dread is really just to unreliable to be considered for anything but "I took it b/c I felt like it".

Havoc are better then alot of people give them credit for, esp with HB's (I like em anyway) and as you say, AC's. But b/c they are a squad of guys, more #'s, but immoble, harder to kill in some ways, easier in others, etc, etc, they are even harder to compair then oblit and preds. Would take way more in depth consideration and thinking then I'm willing to put in tonight, besides Green Bay is playing :P

[Drudge Dreadnought]

As for the dread, I believe that firefrenzy Q has been covered in an erratica (or whatever it's called) or FAQ, and GW sz it can even pivot around and shoot your guys if they are closest, RAW

 

Nope, GW has never said a word. This and who Fabius Bile can enhance should have been the first things covered in the chaos FAQs. Instead our FAQ covers a lot of topics that it doesn't really need to.

[Redbaron997]

Ive looked into the Pred more myself and it looks pretty good, plus the Predator model looks great and is easy to transport and cheaper to buy i believe.

[minigun762]

Why not make this discussion really interesting and throw in the other heavy weapon platforms? Fire support dreads and havocs.

 

A missile Launcher + lascannon dread is a mere 125 pts and has the best mobility of any of them. And assuming that interpretation of fire frenzy that it shoots the nearest unit it can see (not the nearest one proximity wise) it can dish out some serious damage. It is also much easier to keep in cover than a pred. It also doesn't fight for heavy support slots. The main issue is if you get stuck blood raging without a DCCW.

 

Havocs are very inefficient when it comes to the heavier weapons, but are decent with the cheaper ones like autocannons and missiles. They are, of course, the least mobile but can average better results vs light armor than oblits. A 6 man unit with 3 autocannons is the same as 2 oblits and will terrorize rhinos and heavy infantry.

 

I'm game! ^_^

Oddly enough, I know a player that swears by the Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher Dread in his army. Cheap deadly fire support. He relies on Lash and LOS to get the most of it.

If I was a Loyalist player, I know I'd have a few of those dual TL AutoCannon Dreads. Talk about a transport muncher! ^_^

 

I'm a fan of Havocks with AutoCannons or Missile Launchers. I think their other weapons are better handled by Dakka Predators or Obliterators, but the medium strength ones are cheap enough to spam and tough enough to be a threat to most things.

And just like the Combi-Predator, they excel at a very important role, busting open transports.

In a meta-game where everything is mechanized, is it not smart to take the best weapons you can against the transport swarms you're going to see?

[Hashulaman]

I like oblits better, as a squad of 3 need 3 S8 or stronger wounds to be annihilated. However, only one of said hits can destroy a predator.

[Lord Doyok]

Oblits are good.. The best infantry in fact. But i choose Preds still.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Rememeber at Obliterators are able to handly them self in Close Combat with the power fist. While the Predators would get attack from the back armour...if it luck/favour by the chaos gods it could move back but it a bit more frigle.

 

Oddly enough, I know a player that swears by the Plasma Cannon/Missile Launcher Dread in his army. Cheap deadly fire support. He relies on Lash and LOS to get the most of it.

 

After my own Black Legion force, I am never taken this set up again, belive it took out more of my army that then oppent ever did.

 

For me, if it was 4th Ed I would bring a Predator in. But for time being & the time we are in (5th Ed) I'll rely upon Obliterators. Mainly down to not like static units, also the power fist when in combat are handly, like wise with the chose of weapon, Lascannon for a tank, twin flamer for those orks or Guards who go to ground to claim a object.

 

IP

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Rememeber at Obliterators are able to handly them self in Close Combat with the power fist. While the Predators would get attack from the back armour...if it luck/favour by the chaos gods it could move back but it a bit more frigle.

 

True, but preds can't be locked in CC. They are also very difficult to hit if they moved.

 

For me, if it was 4th Ed I would bring a Predator in. But for time being & the time we are in (5th Ed) I'll rely upon Obliterators. Mainly down to not like static units, also the power fist when in combat are handly, like wise with the chose of weapon, Lascannon for a tank, twin flamer for those orks or Guards who go to ground to claim a object.

 

I agree. Predators really lost out now that they can't move and shoot heavy bolters, which i think was the hwole damn point of the thing. If they could the tl-lc, heavy bolter, havoc launcher pred would be a great unit (and still struggle to compete with oblits).

[the jeske]

True, but preds can't be locked in CC. They are also very difficult to hit if they moved.

yes but if a unit gets in to hth with them . its str 6/8-10 hiting on back door and it just dies and if it moved the turn before then it didnt shot , what means its even worse then overcosted rhino [because rhinos are close to units and predators are normally not] .

 

 

I like oblits better, as a squad of 3 need 3 S8 or stronger wounds to be annihilated. However, only one of said hits can destroy a predator.

actually its more , because the attacks have to hit [on +4 or +3] , then wound[always a chance to roll 1] and then they either get cover or inv.

[NielsPeter]

Predators are horrible. They're immobile, inflexible and poorly armed and armoured.

 

They're completely inferior to any other comparable vehicle. Valkyrie, Leman Russ, Hammerhead, Land Raider, Vindicator.

 

 

Predators are long overdue for an update and GW have been sleeping in class.

[minigun762]

I don't think the being assaulted thing is much of an issue, mostly because I would expect either unit to be taken out if a dedicated assault unit attacked it. The Oblits would fair better, but chances are still very high they'd die without taking a swing.

 

If I wanted a shooting unit that could handle itself in the assault phase, I'd go with a Defiler. It actually stands a reasonable chance of winning.

 

Outside of Lash builds, I am really starting to believe that the Predator would be atleast equal to, if not better, then a pair of Oblits. The reason is just because they put out more firepower in a single turn and the earlier you can bust open a transport, the better.

[the jeske]

The reason is just because they put out more firepower in a single turn and the earlier you can bust open a transport, the better.

all I can say is play test the same list with preds first against tau/eldar and sm with drop dreads and then test the same build with oblits. for me the preds are not worth it. they die to anti LR rush meta , only unlike LR they have a close to 100% of dieing and LR are support unit for a build , techniclly whats inside can still run , score/contest etc . a blown up or stuned pred means no fire support for one turn in a game where we already dont have so many options to fire weapons from static hvy weapon platforms. too offten the preds turns in to a non shoting LoS blocker or single lascanon tank[and then oblits are cheaper].

[minigun762]

all I can say is play test the same list with preds first against tau/eldar and sm with drop dreads and then test the same build with oblits. for me the preds are not worth it. they die to anti LR rush meta

 

You think so?

I agree that the Predator is open to being taken out by a Termicide squad or IronClad Dreadnought coming in, but then again so are Oblits. You're average Termicide squad will smoke a Predator probably (3 shots = 2 hits = basically dead against side armor) but that same squad will also knock out 1 Oblit (assuming they're in 4+ cover) and then next turn assault and kill the other, so you're at most buying yourself a single turn.

 

Even if the Predator dies a turn earlier, its still putting out twice the shots and its cheaper when it does die.

 

Regardless of the outcome, I think there is some good discussion going on here and thats half the fun anyway right? :)

[Warp Angel]

It really depends on your army build which choice makes the most sense.

 

I agree with DrudgeDreadaught that oblits are the most versatile choice. You get multiple deployment options, and can even separately target in smaller lists if you split them up. (larger lists often use more heavy support slots)

 

I also have to admit that I'm a fan of the idea of having more shots and acting as an AV13 armored bunker. But if I'm going to do that, I'm going to keep my pred as cheap as possible and not go the mixed weapon route.

 

The reason for that is "best effect on the target" is achieved by having complimentary weapons systems on a single platform. Against hordes, lascannons aren't substantially better than a single autocannon shot. And against AV12, a lascannon vastly outperforms the autocannon while the HB is just about useless.

 

Horses for courses as they say.

 

If you want versatility in firepower, the oblits do it better than a mixed predator, even if they cost more. If you want to focus on one thing, it's very arguable that the predator focuses better.

 

I'm kind of stuck when I play Chaos, since I run a Thousand Sons based force, and I need the hand to hand capability and anti-horde benefits that come with a defiler. Between the stupidly high base cost for a squad of TSons and the lack of good anti-horde options, I almost have to use them.

[the jeske]

and then next turn assault and kill the other, so you're at most buying yourself a single turn.

yes but that one oblits will still shot for one turn it can move away or shot the termis or the termis can eat a counter unit. a pred cant do that , because its almost always dead . also 50% chance to kill one doesnt mean that 1 always dies . it means that sometimes one dies and sometimes it doesnt [if they dont hit the ground ] . melta dreads are one shot against them . + if your not playing a lash build and have oblits just for antitank , you can just deep strike them. against eldar and tau deep striking both termis and oblits is a very viable tactics.

Even if the Predator dies a turn earlier, its still putting out twice the shots and its cheaper when it does die.

well , but to do that it has to stay static . survive turn 1 and two[and that just doesnt mean not being blow up. a stuned pred doesnt help much with anti tank too] , while your opponent can manuver , block LoS with his transport . he can make the pre less useful without even shoting at it. true it could happen to not deep striking oblits too , but oblits have a smaller chance of doing nothing whole game.

 

I always watch out for army choice like this. If a unit/model is not a 4th ed falcon and has a big chance of doing nothing in a game , then it doesnt matter how uber choppy or shoty it is , when all goes well. because when all goes well a good list doesnt need win more choices.

[minigun762]

I also have to admit that I'm a fan of the idea of having more shots and acting as an AV13 armored bunker. But if I'm going to do that, I'm going to keep my pred as cheap as possible and not go the mixed weapon route.

 

The reason for that is "best effect on the target" is achieved by having complimentary weapons systems on a single platform. Against hordes, lascannons aren't substantially better than a single autocannon shot. And against AV12, a lascannon vastly outperforms the autocannon while the HB is just about useless.

 

In this regard, I believe that the Combi-Predator I was describing has very complimentary weapons for its main task. In my eyes, its focus is to kill transports, walkers and/or MCs at range. AutoCannons and LasCannons work great for both of these roles. And there are many threats that fall within this range, making it a useful but often overlooked niche in my opinion.

 

 

I always watch out for army choice like this. If a unit/model is not a 4th ed falcon and has a big chance of doing nothing in a game , then it doesnt matter how uber choppy or shoty it is , when all goes well. because when all goes well a good list doesnt need win more choices.

 

So if I understand you right, you'd rather use the more consistent choice (Obliterators) instead of the unit that has more potential (Predators) because when things go bad, you want the unit that is best able to survive and adapt to whatever is happening.

Does that sound about right?

 

Very interesting idea, and one I didn't think about for Heavy Support. I use that same kind of logic with my CSMs but not for the other support units.

[Night Lord Dred]

I run 2 combi-preds and x4 autocannons for heavy support. The result is ~200 extra points to spend, which is essentially another squad of troops or two free termicide units. In addition you get more shots (4) for less than 2 oblits (2 shots) point for point.

 

The fact is, these heavy support options annihilate light transports, MCs, and have the range and shots to take down pesky units like lootas 48" away...for less than 500 points. AV13 shooting 48" is no joke, and requires a really lucky shot to take it down for good.

 

As for getting assaulted/droppodded/deepstruck behind, theres no difference between a predator and an oblit. Oblits are garbage in CC, and get completely smashed by melta guns, all while Lascannons chew through them like paper, unlike predators.

 

You are paying for versatility with oblits. This versatility, imo, is not required in most situations. Multi-meltas need to have the target within 12" to make a difference, and 3 lascannons shooting at the target would most likely take whatever it is down anyways. Flamer, Plasma, TLd melta, Fist...they do nothing for you.

 

The real loss is the plasma cannon. However, unless you have lash, plasma cannons are near useless against anyone half decent. Small blast templates are weak enough without those 4+ ontop of it.

 

The 4x autocannon havocs just smash things. Whether or not you use preds, these guys are just so good point for point. They WILL take down those transports, they WILL slaughter those banshees, and they WILL do very well as anti horde, causing less than a wound less than 4 heavy bolters. Then you can buy them a rhino and either a) block line of site from other units while the havocs focus on another target or :whistling: send it up with your other rhinos as a backup for when one gets destroyed. Your guys pop out, pass their pinning test, and hop in the empty rhino while still moving up the board. Ofcourse, you can overlap the extra rhino to give your other rhinos 4+ saves as well.

 

I used to use oblits, now Ive switched to the cost efficient HS i have with preds and havocs. The few things Im missing out on (ie plasma cannons) just arnt worth losing these new advantages for.