Oblits vs Combi-Predator

[Lord Doyok]

I like the fact that even a single 100pts Pred have the possibility to kill a DPrince in a single turn of shooting. Difficult and rarely happens but i've done that a couple of times. 3 Oblits have no chance at all..

 

..and the fact that i have been able to TA my opponent when playing with 3 preds. I somehow failed to achieve that using 2x2 Oblits.

 

That does not say Preds are better than Oblits. Oblits list rules out there. But just to state one of the reason why i choose Preds over Oblits. Its the number of shots. During bad days, yeah.. that number of shots means nothing.

 

Another reason is how people tends to ignore the Preds. Rarely did all my preds get destroyed. In the most recent game (vs Eldar, Seize Ground), my 3 Preds survived unscathed. The Eldar concentrated on killing my troops (which they succeed) and other more Killy units. My Preds in return kills most of the enemy to give me another TA win in Turn 6.

 

It's funny how that scenario keeps repeating itself once every few games. They were underestimated, they were ignored, and so they continue with the kills. The silent killer perhaps? (Quite funny since they make quite some noise with all that cannons :))

[Sanctjud]

'no chance at all' is pretty terminal.

Oblits do have TL Plasma guns, in rapid fire range they do have a chance.

 

A pred will do on average 28/27 wounds.

3 Dreads double tapping will do 80/27 wounds.

 

Anyway, everyone has different preferences and different things work well.

 

I know tha dreads, possessed, spawn, lesser daemons are not the shiney options in the dex, but are fun and functional units, the pred included in that list.

 

My 7 Cents.

[Lord Doyok]

Oh yah.. forgot about that that TL-plasmas.. my bad :rolleyes:

But then, of course 225pts should perform better than 100pts right?

[chillin]

I run 2 combi-preds and x4 autocannons for heavy support. The result is ~200 extra points to spend,

 

200 xtra pts as compaired to what ?

What config of combi-pred ?

[Night Lord Dred]

I run 2 combi-preds and x4 autocannons for heavy support. The result is ~200 extra points to spend,

 

200 xtra pts as compaired to what ?

What config of combi-pred ?

 

9 Oblits.

 

130 point Lascannon sponsons + Autocannon.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I need to finish painting some stuff for a game tomorrow, but if i get it done in time i'll post up some numbers of oblits vs combi-preds and autocannon havocs tonight.

[chillin]

I run 2 combi-preds and x4 autocannons for heavy support. The result is ~200 extra points to spend,

 

200 xtra pts as compaired to what ?

What config of combi-pred ?

 

9 Oblits.

130 point Lascannon sponsons + Autocannon.

 

Ya, almost anything would be 200 pts less then 9 oblits. I like preds and havocs too, but I don't think you can compair 2 combi preds and a AC havoc squad to the lasting pwr and shear destructive pwr of 9 oblits. Your are kinda compairing apples and apple pie.

 

Have you ever tried LC & HB combi pred

Or HB havocs w/ 1 AC thrown for xtra rino poping pwr ?

What were the results / your opinion ?

[Night Lord Dred]

I run 2 combi-preds and x4 autocannons for heavy support. The result is ~200 extra points to spend,

 

200 xtra pts as compaired to what ?

What config of combi-pred ?

 

9 Oblits.

130 point Lascannon sponsons + Autocannon.

 

Ya, almost anything would be 200 pts less then 9 oblits. I like preds and havocs too, but I don't think you can compair 2 combi preds and a AC havoc squad to the lasting pwr and shear destructive pwr of 9 oblits. Your are kinda compairing apples and apple pie.

 

Have you ever tried LC & HB combi pred

Or HB havocs w/ 1 AC thrown for xtra rino poping pwr ?

What were the results / your opinion ?

 

You say lasting power and shear destructive force, yet I say otherwise-

 

AC Havocs & Predator:

 

-Havocs are much better at taking down light transports than oblits

-3 more mechanized units between 2 preds and a rhino, forcing opponents to use limited AV sparingly. Use rhino as replacement rhino.

-16 high strength shots for 490 points (230 point), compared to 9 with oblits for 675 points.

-5-10 guaranteed wounds, whereas 3 oblits can (easily) be killed in 3.

-Better CC

-Stationary movement, though 6" on foot, 24" in rhinos after two turns

 

-200 extra points

 

Oblits get:

 

-Deepstriking (+ scattering ofcourse)

-Plasma Cannons, better for taking down TEQs

-Heavy flamer, multimelta, etc. that, let's be honest, isnt used anywhere near as much as las or PCs.

-9 TEQs

-S&P movement

 

 

So really, it comes down to do you want to use that plasma cannon to take down terminators, or do you want to take down transports? Me with 5th edition rules, Id rather take down his transports before he takes down mine. I can also use the points saved to buy yet another squad of guys and a rhino, meaning thats 4 more mech units + 10 more wounds (depends on which troop choice you take). Ultimately you can get 20 MEQs, 2 rhinos & 2 AV13 tanks for the same cost as those 9 oblits.

 

What do you think has more lasting power? Which do you think is more dangerous?

 

Point for point, preds and havocs have far more firepower than oblits. With oblits, youre paying a 75 point premium for versatility, versatility you dont need when the other 1 - 1.5 k points all have meltas and tank hunting abilities.

 

 

-----

 

EDIT: No, ive never run those preds because their weapons contradict the goals of one another. Either make a dakka pred if you know youre playing something like orks, or bring something that will always have a purpose.

 

Heavy bolters are near useless. Even against orks, doing the math, 4x HBs do less than one wound more than Autocannons, and thats their specialty. Anything T5 or above the autocannons do much better with.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Alrighty, here's some numbers to aid in this discussion:

 

Small blasts are assumed to hit 3 models when they hit. 1/3rd of scatter die rolls are direct hits. With the BS of 4, i'm going to give them an average of 50% to land on target. However, small scatters are often going to still hit other squad members. So i'm going to give the PCs the benefit of the doubt that they will always hit 2 models if they don't overheat. I'm going to remove 1/6 shots for overheating. I know this isn't accurate per volly, but its accurate averaged out over several shooting phases.

 

Each unit will be evaluated vs MEQs, AV 11, AV 12, and AV 13. Cover will not be considered vs vehicles. Only the ability to kill vehicles through penetrating hits will be considered.

 

The Units Being Compared

 

150pts = 2 Oblits

 

130pts = Combi Pred with Lascannon Sponsons. In realistic game terms these probably need extra armor though, which brings it to 145.

 

150pts = Combi Dakka Pred with TL-LC, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, and Havoc Launcher.

 

150pts = 6 Havocs with 3 Autocannons.

 

The Numbers

 

Oblits: Plasma Cannons vs MEQs, Lascannons vs Armor.

 

VS Meqs: 2 PC shots = 4 hits. 1/6 overheat = 3.33 hits, 2.77 wounds, = 2.77 kills (1.3 if Covered).

VS AV 11: 2 LC shots = 1.33 hits. Pen on 3+ = .88 pens, = .29 kills.

VS AV 12: Pen on 4+ = .665 pens, = .22 kills.

VS AV 13: Pen on 5+ = ..44 pens, = .14 kills.

 

Combi Pred: 2 AC shots, 2 LC shots = 1.33 hits from each.

 

VS Meqs: 1.11 AC wounds, .37 kills. 1.11 LC wounds, 1.11 kills (.55 in cover). Total = .92 - 1.48 kills.

VS AV 11: AC pens on 5+ = .44 pens. LC pens on 3+ = .88 pens. Total 1.33 pens, .44 kills.

VS AV 12: AC pens on 6 = .22 pens. LC pens on 4+, = 66 pen. Total .88 pens, .295 kills.

VS AV 13: LC pens on 5+, = .44 pens, = .14 kills.

 

Combi Dakka Pred: 1 TL-LC shot, 6 HB shots, 1 havoc shot. = ~.85 LC hits, 4 HB hits, 3 havoc hits (+50% more due to twin-linked, assumed to hit vs vehicles).

 

VS Meqs: .70 LC wounds, .35-.70 kills. 2.66 HB wounds, .88 kills. 2 Havoc wounds, .66 kills. Total = 1.89-2.25 kills

VS AV 11: LC pens on 3+ = ~.56 pens. Havoc and HB pen on 6, = .83 pens. Total 1.4 pens, .46 kills.

VS AV 12: LC pens on 4+, = .425 pens. Total .14 kills

VS AV 13: LC pens on 5+, = .28 pens. Total .094 kills

 

Havocs: 6 AC shots = 4 hits.

 

VS Meqs: 3.33 wounds, 1.11 kills.

VS AV 11: Pen on 5+ = 1.33 pens, = .44 kills.

VS AV 12: Pen on 6+ = .66 pens, = .22 kills.

 

 

Conclusion

 

So, oblits win at killing meqs, but the Combi Dakka Pred isn't far behind. They of course also win at killing TEQs, and probably hordes. The AC havocs and combi dakka pred will win vs things they can AP that arn't in cover of course.

 

The oblits come in last at killing AV 11, with everything else being about equal. Strangely enough the Hb pred wins this one by .02. Weight of fire stacks up!

 

Oblits and Havocs tie vs armor 12, with the combi pred a bit ahead and combi dakka in last.

 

Oblits and Combi pred tie vs av 13, and oblits of course win av 14.

 

When it comes down to it, these numbers make it clear that the deciding factors are things like mobility and defense, not actual firepower.

Discuss!

 

EDIT: You may now refer to me as Drudge Dread, Aspiring Champion of Mathhammer.

[Lord Doyok]

Great!!

 

Oblits lose against Armour 11 is due to using lasscannon. How about with multimelta. When i use Oblits, I prefer that compares to lasscannon against AV10-11. AP1 makes a lot of difference. But what is the score?

 

130pts = Combi Pred with Lascannon Sponsons. In realistic game terms these probably need extra armor though, which brings it to 145

In realistic game term, I never take EA, even on my Rhinoes. Even in tourneys ^_^

 

Thanks Drudge Dread, Aspiring Champion of Mathhammer.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I did not include the multi-melta as all the other weapons are at least 36 inch range. Oblits obviously improve as they close enough to use multi-meltas and twin-linked meltas (maybe even tl-plasma?).

 

Here's multi melta vs AV 11 outside 12":

 

2 shots, 1.33 hits, pen on 4+ = .665 pens. Kill on 4+ = .33kills.

 

Everybody else is still better!

 

Multi-Melta vs AV 11 inside 12":

 

2 shots, 1.33 hits, pen on 4+. 2d6 will get a 4+ ~2/3rd of the time (this isn't exact but i'm not gonna spend the time to figure it out). So .885 pens, .44 kills.

 

Twin-Linked Meltas vs AV 11 outside 6":

 

2 shots, ~1.77 hits, pend on 4+ = .885 pens, .44 kills

 

So oblits have to be within 12" to kill AV 11 as well as the other options. They have to be within 6" to kill it better. Of course they will be killing AVs higher than 11 much better than the others within 12". We also get the interesting tidbit that using multi meltas and twin-linked meltas at 12" is exactly the same.

[Lord Doyok]

Nice read here Drudge.. :eek

 

Just goes to show that Preds isn't a bad choice compares to Oblits.

Too bad 5th ed kills their mobility.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well there still is the issue of the pred getting shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed and not being able to fire. But these numbers also happen to show the chance of lascannons to kill said preds. 2 LCs have a 15% chance to kill one. But they have a 66% chance to glance, and that is a lot. A LC has a 33% chance to silence a predator on front armor :/. The numbers for Daemonic Possessed preds are 1/6th worse, but that puts them in a whole different price bracket unless its the combi pred. A daemon possessed combi pred should still be better vs AV 11 than 2 oblits.

[grimz]

This is quite interesting, as I have been wondering about a Havoc squad with ACs.

[Lord Doyok]

But Drudge.. the same roll that can glanced a Pred by Lasscannon equals to one dead Oblits :devil:

[Drudge Dreadnought]

But Drudge.. the same roll that can glanced a Pred by Lasscannon equals to one dead Oblits ;)

 

True enough, but oblits get cover from area terrain and preds are very difficult to cover if you want your guns to be able to see. So it would take twice what it takes to silence a pred to drop an oblit.

[Chimerical]

Multi-Melta vs AV 11 inside 12":

 

2 shots, 1.33 hits, pen on 4+. 2d6 will get a 4+ ~2/3rd of the time (this isn't exact but i'm not gonna spend the time to figure it out). So .885 pens, .44 kills.

 

;) Perhaps you should've taken the time to work it out. Isn't it more like 2D6 gets you 4+ 11/12 times (Only 3 results out of 36 are less than 4)? Which would take destroyed AV11 to .61. So, quite a bit better than the TL-melta.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well there you go ;) My math doesn't have much quality control at 3 in the morning.

[the jeske]

does that have the +1 melta weapons get?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

does that have the +1 melta weapons get?

 

Mine does, yes. Notice its 50% of pens are kills instead of 33%.

[minigun762]

Minor point Drudge Dread, Aspiring Champion of Mathhammer, the Heavy Bolters and Havoc will never be able to penetrate AV11.

Glance yes, but not penetrate it.

 

When it comes down to it, these numbers make it clear that the deciding factors are things like mobility and defense, not actual firepower.

Discuss!

Don't forget that as Warp Angel points out about Heavy options, you use it to fill in what the rest of your army is lacking.

 

For me, I normally bring enough anti-horde/MEQ/TEQ just using my CSMs and I have anti-Land Raider covered with Meltaguns. What I normally need is ways to kill things faster then a Rhino squad (Skimmer transports grrr) or mow down MCs or walkers at range. This means long range S7+ firepower.

[chillin]

Good stuff Drudge, asp champ of math hammer.

It was interesting the dakka combi-pred (which I have been trying & liking lately) do so well vs. MEQ's and AV 11, it's no surprize to me though, as that's what I've been seeing in games. What was interesting is that the combi-dakka pred is within .046 of the oblits and combi-pred at pen. AV 13, again, not a surprize to me. Furthermore, if the tanks more 6" the dakka combi-pred jumps ahead of the combi-pred at pen. AV 13 b/c it's firing a TL'ed LC as opposed to a reg. LC.

 

Notice Drudge's comment about weight of fire adding up when talking about the dakka combi-pred doing so well against AV 11, esp. after night lord dred's opinions that the weops (TL LC and HB's) contradict the goals of one another and HB's were near useless (don't get me wrong NL dred, I ask your opinion and wanted to know it. I like getting other players opinions on builds & tactics, even if we have different opinions about something, sometimes esp. then :tu: ).

I think alot of people underestimate the strengh of multiple HB's at taking out MEQ's and AV 11. Very rarly have I had an opponents rino keep rolling after hitting it with an all dakka pred and if I hit it with my 3 HB & 1 AC Havoc squad forget it, all those glancing hits really add up (esp against players that think x armor on rinos isn't worth it). I've also had my HB havocs do quite well vs meq's, you can only make so many armor saves. And I've had them pretty much clear out a squad of eldar per turn.

[minigun762]

Good stuff Drudge, asp champ of math hammer.

It was interesting the dakka combi-pred (which I have been trying & liking lately) do so well vs. MEQ's and AV 11,

Notice Drudge's comment about weight of fire adding up when talking about the dakka combi-pred doing so well against AV 11, esp. after night lord dred's opinions that the weops (TL LC and HB's) contradict the goals of one another and HB's were near useless (don't get me wrong NL dred, I ask your opinion and wanted to know it. I like getting other players opinions on builds & tactics, even if we have different opinions about something, sometimes esp. then <_< ).

I think alot of people underestimate the strengh of multiple HB's at taking out MEQ's and AV 11.

 

Chillin, if you caught my previous post, you'll notice that a Heavy Bolter can't penetrate AV11. It can, at most, glance it and with glances being what they are, I don't believe the Heavy Bolter is really worthwhile for Rhino busting. You'd literally have to glance off every weapon and immobilize it and with only glancing on 6's, thats a tough task.

 

Now against AV10, it does ok, but still not wonderful.

3 HB shots vs AV10 = 0.33 penetrating hits

2 AC shots vs AV10 = 0.66 penetrating hits

1 LC shot vs AV10 = 0.55 penetrating hits

 

Thats why I feel that the AC/LC Predator is a better transport hunter whereas the TL-LC/HB Predator truly is a "jack of all trades" vehicle.

 

I'm now starting to look at Predators like this:

 

AC/HB Predator = dedicated infantry killer

AC/LC Predator = dedicated light armor/MC killer

TLLC/HB Predator = Multi-purpose unit

TLLC/LC Predator = dedicated heavy armor/MC killer

[Night Lord Dred]

While I appreciate DD's effort and time he took into his post, there are numerous objective mistakes and omissions (important ones) and other things that should be noted.

 

Havocs:

 

-First off, the lack of Av10 in his analysis leads the way for a bit of a false perception. Im not sure if he omitted it due to Autocannons obviously outperforming everything else, but ACs will dominate Av10. Now people are probably thinking "Oh, even bolters can take down AV10" - Yes, but not at the range ACs can, nor the reliability.

 

ACs will dominate SM speeders, Eldar war walkers, Ork Trukks, IG Sentinels and so on. Even in cover, these units are going to get penned due to the sheer number of shots. You WILL cause major damage, to the point where 3 war walkers can get slaughtered in 1 turn of shooting. 8 shots penning on 4s dominates. Squadrons which are getting more popular now get annihilated.

 

Note that this also includes the combi predators which have 2 AC shots each.

 

-Autocannon Havocs cannot simply be placed at 150 points. Why should they have 3 autocannons and 6 guys just so they fit into the 150 points that oblits have? For 155 points you can have 4x autocannons. Adding extra bodies also gives you extra bolters and CC beasts that we cant really factor in and calculate. So essentially we just added 33% more power to each havoc calculation.

 

It was already beating oblits out, and this extra gun just sends it the extra distance. Oblits were beating out havocs at AV12 under DD's assumptions, but with the extra AC you get 8 shots ~6 hits (a little less), which is essentially 1 pen and 1 glance.

 

-Glancing. His calculations completely omit glancing which is unfair because 8 S7 shots is more likely to have many more glances than 3 oblit shots. Oblits with lascannons will most likely either miss on the 3+ or pen.

 

 

Predators:

 

-His analysis and summary is also misleading. The 130 point predator simply beats out 150 oblits in penetrating armour. They have the same number of lascannons (2 each), except the predator also has an autocannon. So the predator beats out oblits at AV10, AV11, AV12, and yes, even AV13 where there was a "tie", but the ACs will still glance 1/3 times.

 

It's also misleading with "Oblits are better at AV14". Neither can do better than the other at anything more than 12 inches away. At that range though, you might as well have one of your 4 troops with 8 meltas take over.

 

-Just to emphasize the note above again, more shots also means more glancing. Omitting glancing is unfair, especially when it clearly pushes on unit over another.

 

-Chillin, this is for you:

 

The dakka pred calculations are wrong. While I didnt read over any of the other math, obviously with this point in dispute i looked this one over. DD has HBs and a havoc launcher (which brings the dakka pred up to 115 points, only 15 points less than the combi-pred) penning AV11 on 6s. Both weapons are strength 5. That means there is NO penning by that predator except for 2 AC shots. Considering his analysis omits glancing, that predators shouldnt really even have been brought up. This predator has no benefit over a combi pred other than 15 points less and good for ork killing.

 

So I stand by my statement that those preds are not as good and shouldnt be used. Dont worry, I wont rub it in your face after you didnt believe me :rolleyes: .

 

 

Oblits:

 

-Are given the benefit of the doubt with plasma cannons in this analysis. Against units in cover, even under perfect conditions they barely do better than anything else. Honestly, if your opponent was dumb enough to leave marines out in the open and clumped up (the small blast template can be avoided and force only 1 possible marine to be under the template...unless you get a lucky scatter inbetween), they deserve it.

 

-TEQs are where the plasma cannon shines, and whether you take an oblit for it really should depend on that.

[Warp Angel]

In this regard, I believe that the Combi-Predator I was describing has very complimentary weapons for its main task. In my eyes, its focus is to kill transports, walkers and/or MCs at range. AutoCannons and LasCannons work great for both of these roles. And there are many threats that fall within this range, making it a useful but often overlooked niche in my opinion.

 

That goes back to the point I made that it really depends on what your army needs. If you're short on ranged firepower against low AV targets and MCs, than an AC/LC Pred fits the bill nicely.

 

Your playstyle, your army build, your opponents and all that.