Oblits vs Combi-Predator

[minigun762]

but how many times can I run 2X2 oblits as my only HS choice ?

 

19.

No more and no less.

:cuss

[incinerator950]

I take two wraithlords with BL and EML, and I can never seem to scratch any armour, and when I do, it has an 4+ save half the time :/ (all the time since my main opponent is Tau)

 

Its intresting how most of us considered preds a far inferior option a couple months ago are starting to reconsider them, mainly cause they are cheaper and just add in more mech.

 

Another good point is the physical aspects.

 

1. Cheaper money wise.

 

2. Smaller than a defilier or such, meaning easier to hide in terrain, and easier to transport.

 

Plus a bunch of Dragon mouth cannons look really cool.

 

It's a metal box with cannons, can't get much smaller than the rhino pattern metal box.

[Redbaron997]

but how many times can I run 2X2 oblits as my only HS choice ?

 

19.

No more and no less.

:)

 

Dang, i would said 13.4

[Atheist]

Has anyone ever considered a one twin linked lascannon ( no sponsons ) as an option for the added mobility ( and perhaps denying objective potential in later rounds ) or am I going to be stoned to death for mentioning such an outrageous thing ?

 

I haven't tried it , has anyone ever experimented with such a configuration ?

 

Cheaper than two oblits , costs as a termicide squad , twin linked , can go places .

 

" Guaranteed to break the ice at naughty parties ! "

 

Heh .

[Redbaron997]

The thing is for 1 TL lascannon shot you are paying for 105 points. While you can get 2 LC shots and 2 AC chots for just 25 points more, and you can alway move and still shot a Lascannon.

[Atheist]

I see , but I would question if a twin linked mobile lascannon is worth 105 points , because it could perhaps be a rather effective ( in bringing down enemy transports ) heavy support choice for a relatively low cost , and could easily fit 3 in a 1500 list and still have a lot points to go , termicides NOT excluded .

 

I consider myself an Iron Warrior you see .

 

Always on the lookout for maximum ( both in quality and quantity ) firepower .

[chillin]

Has anyone ever considered a one twin linked lascannon ( no sponsons ) as an option for the added mobility ( and perhaps denying objective potential in later rounds ) or am I going to be stoned to death for mentioning such an outrageous thing ?

 

The guy that is an UM player that also visits this forum (maybe he plays csm too ?) swears by them. Made a big arguement in the last oblits vs preds, or what pred config do you use, topic. It was Capt Idaho maybe.

I think the Hb's are woth the 30 xtra pts b/c I can turn that same pred on eldar or ork and do some serious damage as well. But It's 105 pts for a mobile TL'ed LC with pretty good survivablity. I say give it (TL'ed LC only) a try. Can always gule those sponsons on later if you want.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It really just comes down to specialization vs generalization. Almost ever unit in every codex has the option to spend a few more points to be good against a few more types of enemies. You just need to decide if you can afford to play a unit that is so rigidly specialized.

[chillin]

The thing is for 1 TL lascannon shot you are paying for 105 points. While you can get 2 LC shots and 2 AC chots for just 25 points more, and you can alway move and still shot a Lascannon.

 

But the big difference is that if you move 6" you can only fire the 1 single LC (66% chance to hit), where as with what he suggest if you move you can fire a TL'ed LC which is pretty much a auto-hit.

Not saying the combi-pred isn't worth the xtra 25 pts (like I said I think the TL LC & HB combi pred is pretty good even though I know it's not a popular choice). Put the TL'ed LC only pred might fit his army just fine. I think it's worth experimantation.

[Atheist]

Another question , if sponsons are not present , then the predator should have the usual Rhino side doors , right ?

 

Has anyone ever tried to unglue sponsons ? I haven't used a plastics glue , rather a cyano-acrilic ( sp ? - english is not my mother tongue , but you can tell I suppose ) glue , for which solvents do exist .

 

Sorry for the off topic question .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You can get sponsons off, but even with solvent it might turn into a hack job. Its really impossible to say without having the tank in front of me.

[chillin]

Another question , if sponsons are not present , then the predator should have the usual Rhino side doors , right ?

 

Has anyone ever tried to unglue sponsons ? I haven't used a plastics glue , rather a cyano-acrilic glue , for which solvents do exist .

 

I assume you mean, what we call in USA, a 2 part epoxy. I think any solvent that would disolve that would also eat up the plastic parts of the model (the sides of the tank). I would suggest just prying them of w/ a modeling knife, alittle bit at a time, working all the way around. Then scrape/sand/file the rough stuff off, and repaint (which you would have to do anyway).

I would suggest playing a few games and just not count (or pay for) the sponsons, to see if that's the way you want to go, before hacking them off and doing all that wk.

 

Yes, if you decide to remove the sponsons, just use the rino side doors.

[Atheist]

Apologies to the OP about the topic derail , I kinda lost you there chillin , on the two part epoxy thing .

 

I have used super-glue to glue my models , but I know from previous experience that superglue isn't that "super " when it comes to glueing toy soldiers .

 

Toy tanks may be a different case which I intent to explore .

 

See , I have these two old predators , for whose assembly I'm not tha proud of and I'd like to turn them into rhinos , salvaging the parts for another two fully magnetized predators , because frankly I'm ap to here ( /me points at forehead ) with magnetised sponson weapons .

 

I can't even turn the damn thing without worrying of it falling apart , plus I can never glue the top bit of the sponson ( the little targeting bit ) and I have already lost one .

 

So the concept is that I turn my two old preds into rhinos ( still have the rhino bits from their original boxes ) so as to salvage the sponson parts for the deluxe fully magnetised full new predator . Plus I get to have extra turrets , which can be at last be glued and not magnetised ( my predators always seem "sad "with the magnetised turret guns always pointing at the ground )

 

With this information in mind , what would you suggest ?

[chillin]

I kinda lost you there chillin , on the two part epoxy thing .

 

I have used super-glue to glue my models , but I know from previous experience that superglue isn't that "super " when it comes to glueing toy soldiers .

 

Toy tanks may be a different case which I intent to explore .

 

So the concept is that I turn my two old preds into rhinos ( still have the rhino bits from their original boxes ) so as to salvage the sponson parts for the deluxe fully magnetised full new predator . Plus I get to have extra turrets , which can be at last be glued and not magnetised ( my predators always seem "sad "with the magnetised turret guns always pointing at the ground )

 

ith this information in mind , what would you suggest ?

 

Ok so u used super glue not an expoxy should make things easier. could let some solvert set but still going to have to do some prying, but it want be a shard if yoiu had used expoxy (still proxy beforeing all tyha wk.

[Night Lord Dred]

The TL lascannon is a huge waste of points, and not taking sponsons makes it even moreso. Youre paying 35 points to lose an autocannon with 2 shots at S7 for 1 TL shot at S9. Even assuming it hits and pens, theres still only a 1/3 chance youll destroy the vehicle, 1/6 with cover. Not good.

[minigun762]

Has anyone ever considered a one twin linked lascannon ( no sponsons ) as an option for the added mobility ( and perhaps denying objective potential in later rounds ) or am I going to be stoned to death for mentioning such an outrageous thing ?

 

The guy that is an UM player that also visits this forum (maybe he plays csm too ?) swears by them. Made a big arguement in the last oblits vs preds, or what pred config do you use, topic. It was Capt Idaho maybe.

I think the Hb's are woth the 30 xtra pts b/c I can turn that same pred on eldar or ork and do some serious damage as well. But It's 105 pts for a mobile TL'ed LC with pretty good survivablity. I say give it (TL'ed LC only) a try. Can always gule those sponsons on later if you want.

 

I'm pretty sure its Cale thats a fan of it. For Chaos, I don't think its really worth it, as we have Oblits if we want mobile LasCannons.

However for Loyalists, it might not be a horrible idea, but then you're competing with TL LasCannon Razorbacks instead.

[chillin]

I'm pretty sure its Cale thats a fan of it.

 

Yes that's who it was.

[the jeske]

Obviously there is scattering. Im assuming you mean DSing behind the rear armour and meltaing them?

or side . also if the twin linked melta are out of range there is always the mulit meltas or even the lascanons. its still better then a shaken pred that doesnt shot at all.

Well, there is "X" pattern that you must draw to determine which side you hit, so obviously you must land in the top "V". The closer to the bottom of the "V" you try to land in, the harder it is to do so. The higher you are, the closer you are to your enemies lines. If you scatter to the left or right or bottom, you get absolutely no benefit and are not in cover, or you landed on something and mishapped. You then essentially have a 150 or 225 point unit (much more than the expendable termicide) sitting there doing nothing.

this is turn 2+ not turn 1 I doubt the eldar player is moving in one wave . If he does then he will have problems with even those 3-4 rhino squads

 

Then if they WS turboboosted, its not unrealistic to think that 1 of 2 meltas may miss, and the other or both are saved, again, leaving your expensive unit in the open doing nothing.

you mean cover save ? also if they boost they dont shot and dont deliver troops . if they do nothing am cool with them as long as its not turn 6.

 

 

Obviously youre not shooting the first couple of turns either, meaning target priority on your opponents part is far more limited. When these suicide units (youre saying 4 or 5, so 2-3 termicide and 2-3 oblits?) come on the field in turn 2 or 3, the few units you already had on the field are going to be up in flames with no long range fire support. Not the best idea I dont think.

 

well if he is boosting with with serpents then those dont shot . I can take the shoting from vypers on 2 DPs and 3-4 rhinos and 3-4cms/pm/zerker squads. if eldar could wipe that in one turn it wouldnt matter , If I had a pred on table or oblits or anything else .

 

---

 

As for the preds, theyre still mech that need to be taken out, and that means rhinos are moving up quicker. At Av13, its really no joke either. Eldar arnt tremendous at long range fire, generally only having 1 high strength shot per unit.

true.

Fire Dragons are for close range, I dont see how theyll take them out (nor do eldar players generally consider them ideal units).

they smoke a tank then die .because no one will let them embark back on their serpents . if a DP or squad is near they will get fired/assaulted. the difference is that the pred will die to them no matter what you do and oblits will die too , but generally a turn later. If an eldar player disembarks dragons and smokes a rhino , turn 1 or 2 he just lost one of his best anti tank units. .

War Walkers are a problem, yes, but they still have their own problems. Brightlances mean no scatter lasers. If they do outflank and use SLs on side armour 11, they still only pen on 6s. 12 hits means 2 pens, provided its perfect circumstances with no cover and outflanking rolls/LOS. Worst case scenario here is the one predator gets outflanked on turn 2 (after shooting only once because you went second) by 3 WWs and gets destroyed. Then you still have your other pred and autocannons (which will completely own them) to take them down and gain far more points back anyways (I think its 180). Thats the worst case scenario. Maybe they come in turn 4 and do nothing, who knows?

one gets stune by walkers other gets blow up by dragons , next turn there is no pred to return fire. And on your turn you have to send a DP to tar pit the unit or he starts to open rhinos.

 

 

WSs that arnt turboboosting just in the slight chance theyll take down a pred? Not likely.

well if they take down preds you have 0 anti tank that has range to get them [or at least more then one per turn] . well worth it for me.

 

Those outflanking WWs are basically a suicide unit, one that will make less than its points back even under perfect conditions.

that depends on match up.

 

---

As for preds shooting WSs, not likely alone but possible due to the volume of shots together. ~3 lascannons hit and ~3 autocannons hit. 1/3 (1/2) chance of pen (glance) for las, 1/6 (1/3) chance of pen (glance) for AC. Cut in half for TBing.

thats if a serpent boosted in to a place where both preds can shot at it without moving and if non of the preds is shaken or stuned. that is rather optimistic , I would say .

[Night Lord Dred]

Im not going to format my post like that as it gets kind of confusing after the first post, so Ill just break it down by section again:

 

Fire Dragons:

 

Im not really sure how these guys get to the predators. It sounds like youre saying WS turboing out across the board? Thats still 2 turns to get there, and another sitting still so they can disembark. Im pretty sure you could take them down before then. Dont forget that even that pred destroying the the WS alone almost makes his points back. It is a problem, but if they can do it to a predator on my side of the board, why wouldnt they be able to do it to 2 or 3 obliterators that deepstruck in the middle out in the open?

 

I dont think it really matters against oblits (which the S8 will smoke as well) or preds, as fire dragons arnt used too often from what I can tell. Maybe where you are? Either way, I dont see how a pred is more susceptible, as its still close range fire. Even if one survives (which I doubt), does it really matter?

 

Wave Serpents:

 

Honestly, I dont see big guns on WSs often because I think the mentality is that theyre expensive enough as is, and they should be TBing. Those things are amazing as they can give themselves and other WSs that didnt TB 4+ saves. I dont see them shoot until theyre finished doing what they need to do, and by then its CC time so theyre just sitting there.

 

Thing is though, even if there is a big gun, while it may stun a predator, itll outright kill a 75 point oblit easier.

 

Predators:

 

I think you give a little too much credit to how easily they can be blown up. I would definitely say that a unit must go out of its way to kill it. Even if there was a Fire Dragon squad sent out to kill it, thats like 300 points (WS and the infantry) sent out to destroy 130. Then, as you said, they get destroyed the next turn. As chaos, were on the other side of the board where we want to be with less resistance. Not a bad trade off.

 

I just dont see how preds are easier to kill than oblits. Lascannons are hardly a threat when its 3+, 5+, 5+ to kill a pred, and just 3+, 2+, then 5+ invul save on oblit. Melta guns wreck both just as bad, except a multi melta/melta can be 24/12 inches away on oblits as opposed to 12/6 inches on preds.

 

 

Youre right about preds getting blown up, you lose long range support...except for the 3rd HS slot with 4 autocannons that can take down a WS just as well. I highly doubt warwalkers and FD would come in and destroy both preds in one turn. The only thing oblits have over preds are droppods and termicide really, but with a pred being 100 points less, its not that big of a deal.

 

 

Anyways, I like the thinking going on, and its true that you need to be more careful with long range support or else eldar is going to dance circles around you. So good posts.

[minigun762]

I think you give a little too much credit to how easily they can be blown up. I would definitely say that a unit must go out of its way to kill it. Even if there was a Fire Dragon squad sent out to kill it, thats like 300 points (WS and the infantry) sent out to destroy 130. Then, as you said, they get destroyed the next turn. As chaos, were on the other side of the board where we want to be with less resistance. Not a bad trade off.

 

I just dont see how preds are easier to kill than oblits. Lascannons are hardly a threat when its 3+, 5+, 5+ to kill a pred, and just 3+, 2+, then 5+ invul save on oblit. Melta guns wreck both just as bad, except a multi melta/melta can be 24/12 inches away on oblits as opposed to 12/6 inches on preds.

 

We could run the numbers but I'm almost certain that against deepstriking Melta troops/Dreads, the Predator will fare less well. Armor is just much weaker against Melta weapons then bodies. I mentioned it early on that 3 Termicides is basically a dead Predator with any luck whereas its probably going to kill 1 of 2 Oblits. Next turn that Oblits will be dead, but its just more likely to survive the close range Melta spam.

 

Against LasCannons/Missiles, I think their about the same really. You're trading AV13 and maybe a 4+ cover save for 2+/4+ cover save. I call it even, so in my book sniping at max range, both of the units will be equally durable.

 

 

Oddly enough, I'm personally leaning towards AutoCannon Havocks as my long range support and Meltagun spamming for the big stuff.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Autocannons and missile launchers cost the same amount. Would you get better results mixing them instead of just ACs?

[minigun762]

Autocannons and missile launchers cost the same amount. Would you get better results mixing them instead of just ACs?

 

Depends on the target, somethings pure AutoCannons is better, sometimes Missiles are better.

Going 1:1 would probably be the best of both worlds, plus it gives some variety to the unit.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I imagine havocs with 2 ac, 2 missiles would be great for general support.

[Muskie]

I ran three Havoc squads on the weekend, they were all different one was 4 HBs 4 bullet catchers and mark of Nurgle, one was 4 ACs and 4 bullet catchers with no icon and lastly 10 models, 4 plasma guns, and icon of nurgle.

 

They all had about one moment of glory but mostly in the World Wide War tournament it was more important to be mobile than to be able to shoot lots. Toughness 5 didn't help much. And my lack of lascannons hurt me I believe though so did bad rolling and possibly target prioritization.

 

I ran the four HB at Astronomi-con Vancouer last year and the 36 inch range annoyed me. I ran the 4 ACs this year and the lack of mobility is too much.

 

I never use Obliterators but I get tired of losing every game. So I put in the 2*2 Obliterator along with a vindicator in my newest hypothetical 1500 point list. Later I swapped it for the TW-LC + HB predator as I thought 2 * 13 armor plus the three rhinos I also want to run might give some issues to folks.

 

I also finally gave up and am going winged demon prince. For 130 points you can't get a better leader of the CSM. I also looked hard at running a Fabius Bile list as I see a lot of Pedro Kantors and Vulcans now a days... If you can't beat them, join them. However I think I'll give the 130 pt deamon prince a go. Alas I spend too much time reading and thinking and not enough time painting and playing.

 

I should be studying and I'll probably be running a non-power armor army if I can paint a lot, but I think Av13 or last codex Av14 on the front, I frequently ran my other predator...

[minigun762]

They all had about one moment of glory but mostly in the World Wide War tournament it was more important to be mobile than to be able to shoot lots. Toughness 5 didn't help much. And my lack of lascannons hurt me I believe though so did bad rolling and possibly target prioritization.

 

I ran the four HB at Astronomi-con Vancouer last year and the 36 inch range annoyed me. I ran the 4 ACs this year and the lack of mobility is too much.

 

Why would the lack of mobility really be a problem?

With the AutoCannons, you're reaching out to 48", that should be enough to pretty much cover a board.

Dakka Predator won't be moving or if it does, its going to be moving 12" to redeploy to another fire lane.

Even Oblits barely count as mobile, with a 4-5" movement you can't expect alot.

 

Unless your tables are set up very oddly, it seems like you should be able to cover the majority of targets from a decent fire position. Sure they'll get a cover save, but you can still hit them.